Michael Hardner Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 Sorry - I succumbed to thread drift. This thread is about the LPC co-chair, let's get back to that. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
eyeball Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) So we can have a do nothing parliament? I like a parliament that gets things done and doesnt get mired in debate. If nothing moves nothing gets hurt. But seriously, I'd rather see our political parties be forced to work together, and to form coalitions and start facing the reality that the only way forward is cooperatively. Even though i dont agree with the liberals, maybe a majority for them would result in things getting done such as the energy east pipeline. How about if the party in power blows it, they can be shown the door come election time. I don't trust the Liberals to build a pipeline without screwing up the environment any more than I do the Conservatives, especially fish habitat and people who depend on the fisheries they sustain. If pipelines must be built I want the NDP and Greens involved in the negotiating and planning process'. I do not want a FPTP majority government, at all. I want prop rep and will vote strategically to that end until I run out of opportunities to vote. I've actually been thinking of joining a political party. Can anyone recommend a good Goa'uld repellent in case I get elected? Edited October 16, 2015 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Smallc Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 It would make absolutely no political sense for him to be so opposed to it right now only to turn around and support it later. Of course it would. If it helped him gain enough support to win, it wouldn't matter anymore. He's a liberal, and not a left leaning one at that. He says whatever he needs to say, that much is clear. It also makes no sense that it would be good for Canada, considering they're already talking bail out money for dairy and automotive sectors and furthermore they refuse to release the details before the election. Those are two sectors of the economy that will be impacted negatively. No government would sign the deal if they didn't think it was a good deal for Canada overall. Quote
Smallc Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 Sorry - I succumbed to thread drift. This thread is about the LPC co-chair, let's get back to that. Sorry, you're right. Quote
Army Guy Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 for clarity, in your view, what is/are the actual wrong(s)... legal and/or ethical? . If He did nothing wrong why is he stepping down again......and why is Justin on TV explaining that this act would not be tolerated......Not even in office and Liberals strike one..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Smallc Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 If He did nothing wrong why is he stepping down again......and why is Justin on TV explaining that this act would not be tolerated......Not even in office and Liberals strike one..... Because Trudeau is trying to get in front of this so that his momentum isn't destroyed. It's the kind of thing that Harper should have done in the Duffy issue, IMO. Quote
The_Squid Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 With whom did he arrange a meeting and when was it held? I don't recall reading anything about him arranging any meetings. It depends what it said in the emails and if there were other emails. There should certainly be an investigation by the Ethics Commissioner and/or the RCMP. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) It depends what it said in the emails and if there were other emails. There should certainly be an investigation by the Ethics Commissioner and/or the RCMP. And under what conditions do you think the RCMP would investigate? Based on what Kady said in her article, this isn't even a breach of the ethics guidelines. But I do agree that the media should be releasing the full text of the email. I don't like innuendo. Edited October 16, 2015 by ReeferMadness Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
The_Squid Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 And under what conditions do you think the RCMP would investigate? Based on what Kady said in her article, this isn't even a breach of the ethics guidelines. But I do agree that the media should be releasing the full text of the email. I don't like innuendo. To see if Section 5 of the Lobbyying Act was breached, of course. Are there other emails? How many? This guy worked with the sleazeball who worked for Harper. If there was no ethics breach, why did he need to resign? Quote
The_Squid Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 Trudeau handled this exactly how Harper handles these things.... Support the person, even when there is questionable ethics, until public scrutiny gets too hot. So did Trudeau get rid of him because of the ethics issue, or becasue he was caught? Quote
Bryan Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 It would make absolutely no political sense for him to be so opposed to it right now only to turn around and support it later. Campaigning politicians of all stripes promise the opposite of what they plan to do once in office all of the time. It may not seem to make sense, but it's what they do. Mulcair's strategy would most likely be to blame it on Harper -- that things were left in such a way that he had no other option but to ratify the deal. Blaming the last guy is also what politicians generally do. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 To see if Section 5 of the Lobbyying Act was breached, of course. He's not a registered lobbyist. Are there other emails? How many? This guy worked with the sleazeball who worked for Harper. A lot of people who work on campaigns have day jobs. If you eliminated everyone who might be looking for inside info, how many people would there be left? If there was no ethics breach, why did he need to resign? Because it looked bad. Because the Libs knew it would take them off message. Because the Libs didn't want him selling whatever info/influence he thought he might have. Could be lots of reasons. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Bryan Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 Because Trudeau is trying to get in front of this so that his momentum isn't destroyed. It's the kind of thing that Harper should have done in the Duffy issue, IMO. Isn't that EXACTLY what Harper did? He expressed outrage at Duffy and Wright, both of them were removed from their positions (one suspended, the other resigned). Quote
The_Squid Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 He's not a registered lobbyist. You didn't read my earlier post.... it doesn't matter if he was registered. A lobbyist is defined by his actions, not by registration. If you do anything listed in Section 5 of the Act, then you are a lobbyist, as defined by the Act. A lot of people who work on campaigns have day jobs. If you eliminated everyone who might be looking for inside info, how many people would there be left? That's a silly argument. Lobbyists aren't allowed to work in political campaigns while lobbying. Nor should they be allowed. No lobbyist should have that kind of inside track to public officials. Because it looked bad. Because the Libs knew it would take them off message. Because the Libs didn't want him selling whatever info/influence he thought he might have. Could be lots of reasons. Because it was unethical to be lobbying for oil companies while working on an election campaign. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 Nobody has explained yet what exactly what they think this guy was giving away. Information? According to the Liberals, he wasn't involved in energy policy. Influence? There is no information as to what, if any, role he was to have in a Liberal Government. It seems like people are leaping to conclusions. It looks bad for a guy on the campaign to be offering advice in the middle of a campaign - but what of it? Based on what I've seen, all he offered was some very generic advice on who to lobby - as if people couldn't figure that out anyway. I don't understand why the media hasn't released the full content of the email. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 You didn't read my earlier post.... it doesn't matter if he was registered. A lobbyist is defined by his actions, not by registration. If you do anything listed in Section 5 of the Act, then you are a lobbyist, as defined by the Act. That's a silly argument. Lobbyists aren't allowed to work in political campaigns while lobbying. Nor should they be allowed. No lobbyist should have that kind of inside track to public officials. Because it was unethical to be lobbying for oil companies while working on an election campaign. So, everything you've said is premised on your assumption he was lobbying. But the Liberals have said he wasn't involved in any way in energy or pipeline policy. So who/how was he lobbying? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
The_Squid Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) So, everything you've said is premised on your assumption he was lobbying. But the Liberals have said he wasn't involved in any way in energy or pipeline policy. So who/how was he lobbying?Was he setting up meetings between Liberals and oil execs/lobbyists? Are there other emails? What do they say? It is unknown whether he was lobbying... yet. But someone needs to look into it to ensure there was no broach of the Act. And not just Liberal Party assurances.... Edited October 16, 2015 by The_Squid Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 Was he setting up meetings between Liberals and oil execs/lobbyists? Are there other emails? What do they say? It is unknown whether he was lobbying... yet. But someone needs to look into it to ensure there was no broach of the Act. And not just Liberal Party assurances.... All I'm saying at the moment is I haven't seen any actual evidence of either a breach of the act or the code of ethics guidelines. I'm sure the other parties will be doing everything they can to ensure that it's investigated. And I'm interested in knowing who leaked the email. The theory that they leaked it themselves is dumb. I don't think you can rule out the possibility of a Conservative setup. They stand to gain most by this coming out a few days before the election. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
On Guard for Thee Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 Isn't that EXACTLY what Harper did? He expressed outrage at Duffy and Wright, both of them were removed from their positions (one suspended, the other resigned). No, it's not exactly what he did. He supported both of the as long as he could until he realized the shyte was hitting the fan, then the story's changed. You may recall to begin with, Wright "resigned" and "sorry to see him go" then Harper changed the story saying he dismissed Wright. Pretty obvious what was going on. Harper just throws you under the bus if you happen to get outed and become a PR problem. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 Was he setting up meetings between Liberals and oil execs/lobbyists? Are there other emails? What do they say? It is unknown whether he was lobbying... yet. But someone needs to look into it to ensure there was no broach of the Act. And not just Liberal Party assurances.... You're very right, as per the Act (as you quoted): An individual shall file with the Commissioner, in the prescribed form and manner, a return setting out the information referred to in subsection (2), if the individual, for payment, on behalf of any person or organization (in this section referred to as the “client”), undertakes to (a) communicate with a public office holder in respect of (i) the development of any legislative proposal by the Government of Canada or by a member of the Senate or the House of Commons, Mr Trudeau is a Member of the House of Commons, Mr Gagnier was the President of the oil lobby, and well employed by the Liberal Party of Canada, Mr Gagnier has also been employed by TransCanada. During his capacity as a Liberal adviser, Mr Gagnier was contacted by his coworkers at TransCanada, asking how best to lobby a Liberal Government over energy policy/pipelines. Bruce Carson, one of PM Harper's former aides, was investigated and charged for influence peddling, accused of using contacts inside of the mandated 5 year separation period for lobbying after leaving Government service. Mr Carson and Mr Gagnier both worked for the same oil lobby......... The email(s?) should be released.....to the RCMP . Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) Until an investigation shows that a law, or at least a BoE guideline has been broken, all you guys have is a guy who showed bad judgement and resigned because of it. Let me know when you have something. Or when you know who leaked the email. Edited October 16, 2015 by ReeferMadness Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Derek 2.0 Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 Until an investigation shows that a law, or at least a BoE guideline has been broken, all you guys have is a guy who showed bad judgement and resigned because of it. Let me know when you have something. That's just it, an investigation should be conducted.......just as there was an investigation conducted of the alleged affairs of Bruce Carson.......Sauce for the Goose and all. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 Bruce Carson, one of PM Harper's former aides, was investigated and charged for influence peddling, accused of using contacts inside of the mandated 5 year separation period for lobbying after leaving Government service. Mr Carson and Mr Gagnier both worked for the same oil lobby......... Ohhhh.... You think he must have broken the law because he worked with a guy who worked with Harper. Makes sense now. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
On Guard for Thee Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 Until an investigation shows that a law, or at least a BoE guideline has been broken, all you guys have is a guy who showed bad judgement and resigned because of it. Let me know when you have something. Or when you know who leaked the email. That's true. What Gagnier did may have been inappropriate, but not illegal. But of course it is down to the wire at election time, and the oposition, Harper especially, are grasping for anything. I doubt any votes will be changed. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted October 16, 2015 Report Posted October 16, 2015 Ohhhh.... You think he must have broken the law because he worked with a guy who worked with Harper. Makes sense now. No, Bruce Carson was accused of breaking the law after leaving the PMO.......Mr Gagnier's actions occurred well employed by both the Liberal Party of Canada and TransCanada. Quote
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