Argus Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Nothing, until you throw conservatism into the mix. Conservative is just another word for taxpayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) The National Post's comment about Newfoundland not being around long enough to be old stock kind of ignores the island's story from 1497 to 1949. Edited September 19, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 All of these things are ok until the definition changes from "a group of people who follow a set of principles" to the point where the principles are secondary and the social desires to conform, deflect and stick to the tribe overcome the desires to follow the principles. And how is that any more prevalent among conservatives than among liberals or, God help us, 'progressives'? I would argue the desire to conform is far more absolute among progressives than any other group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Not me. Second-class citizen all the way! Non-white, female, middle-class... I'm pretty much on their "Do Not Call" list. lol Funny how I see so many non-White, non male Tory MPs and candidates... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 I appreciate the effort but "terrorist" is an arbitrary term so it doesn't mean much. It absolutely is not arbitrary in any way, shape or form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Well, speaking as an Earthling old stock suggests Neanderthal to me. In any case... "we do not offer them a better health-care plan than the ordinary Canadian can receive. I think that's something that new and old stock Canadians can agree with." What really goes without saying is that everyone in Canada should receive the same health care as anyone else in need of care. If Canadians are of some view that this should not be the case then they should say so more clearly. But with Harper of course, speaking clearly could mean just about anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Conservative is just another word for taxpayer. No it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 That's not true, you can lose your citizenship even if merely 'qualify' for citizenship elsewhere. Well, gee, I guess I should be terrified, then, since I was born abroad while dad was posted overseas. Watch me shake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Justin? Justin used it, so did his father, as did Stephan Dionne. Jason Kenney used it once, when he gave a talk about the need for "new Canadians" and "old stock Canadians" to get to know one another better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 I disagree. IMHO, Harper is smarter than that, in French and English. He's very smart but he does misspeak quite often when off script, usually small grammatical slips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 No it's not. I'd be willing to bet that a much larger share of those who care about fiscal prudence are those who contribute to the fisc, as opposed to those eager to spend that money on anything which strikes their fancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Nobody's restricting thoughts here. What an intellectually disingenuous thing to say. Harper can say whatever he wants and people have the right, actually the duty, to analyze and criticize what he says. "The "sinister" part is that we would even THINK to divide people as if they were a commodity.... " That's from Icebound above. I guess he's just criticizing but he's criticizing thought, which isn't practical. "Stock" is a word that carries baggage with it. It calls back to the recent past when Canada had eugenics programs in many provinces. The Michener Institute in Alberta was sterilizing "mental defectives" as recently as 1970. He certainly didn't mean it that way, but the connotation comes along with the word. He could have said literally anything else to make the same point and it wouldn't have had that baggage. It also could mean 'stock' market, and 'stock' means cattle which reveals Stephen Harper is coding messages to the 1% and Alberta... yadda yadda... Deconstructing speech seems particularly pointless when people don't actually pay attention to numbers and details of important issues. It becomes a parlour game that substitutes for relevant political discussion IMO. And as far as his point goes, new stock and old stock Canadians clearly delineates two classes of citizenship: citizens by birthright and naturalized citizens. It highlights the thinking in this government that not all citizens are equal. That's a jump. Policies need to be explained to groups that can be defined any way you want them - but immigration certainly needs to be explained to Canadians who are entrenched in their history, and therefore power and influence in Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 And how is that any more prevalent among conservatives than among liberals or, God help us, 'progressives'? It's not. It's exactly the same. Haven't you noticed the extreme pushback I get on here from left-of-centre posters when I advocate for freer trade or protection of [Christian] religious rights ? I would argue the desire to conform is far more absolute among progressives than any other group. I would argue that this is a sign that you identify too much with the other group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) Justin used it, so did his father, as did Stephan Dionne. Jason Kenney used it once, when he gave a talk about the need for "new Canadians" and "old stock Canadians" to get to know one another better.JT's remark seems more aware of the potential meaning of the term than Harper's was, though. This old stock thing would flown over my head completely if it hadn't been pointed out to me. I can't say I find it that offensive. Edited September 19, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada_First Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 People are making something out of nothing. Geez man the left will jump up and down over anything it seems. I think people need to calm down. Nothing bad was meant by it. Relax already. Its not some sort of crime to state that we have new and old Canadians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 I'd be willing to bet that a much larger share of those who care about fiscal prudence are those who contribute to the fisc, as opposed to those eager to spend that money on anything which strikes their fancy. I'd be willing to bet anyone who gets near all that public lolly would spend it in the manner you describe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) Le Devoir There you go, the money quote in two languages. Uh, quelle ironie.I think that any intelligent person understands that some people are born in Canada and others where born elsewhere but migrated to Canada. These are facts. We have procedures that clearly define how one can become a citizen. We must have these things to control exploitation of our free services. Dose Tom not understand that not all people are as perfect intentioned and honourable as he think he is? Is he so naive to think that no one could want to try and get free health care by trying to exploit our kind innocents? I think Mr. Montclair is trying to play good old goody touchoo politics. And paint Harper in a negative way as intolorent. Tom is playing the bleeding hart card. Edited September 19, 2015 by Freddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebound Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) I don't think it's reasonable to put restrictions on thoughts. And of course people will think that way. As Kimmy says, this is spin and people needing to write something. We cannot prevent sinister thoughts. But we do not act on them. And we certainly should not run a country by people who think that way and act on it. and Kimmy may be right in that this is not PARTICULARLY sinister. But it still reveals a bit about the mind of the man. Leaders of this country should not be thinking that way. ... Edited September 19, 2015 by Icebound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Leaders of this country should not be thinking that way. ... I already explained why he has to think that way. He has to consider how policies will play with Canadians of all kinds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Well, gee, I guess I should be terrified, then, since I was born abroad while dad was posted overseas. Watch me shake. Geez, I was conceived in the UK and born in Canada. I qualify for British citizenship through my mother. My sister got it but I haven't bothered. Guess I should be shaking in my boots as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 I already explained why he has to think that way. He has to consider how policies will play with Canadians of all kinds. Why have principles when you can govern by spreadsheet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebound Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 I already explained why he has to think that way. He has to consider how policies will play with Canadians of all kinds. In some sense i agree with your point. There IS a difference between campaigning and actual leadership. I have often said that I rather vote for the politician who lies during the campaign, reverses himself while in power.... when the pre-election promise was the wrong thing to do and the reversal was the right thing to do. So if he splits the populace into old-and-new stock to gain votes, but does not really believe it, I can have some sympathy. But in an issue such as this, a "LEADER" might be more of a leader if he used his pulpit to educate rather than pander. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 In some sense i agree with your point. There IS a difference between campaigning and actual leadership. I have often said that I rather vote for the politician who lies during the campaign, reverses himself while in power.... when the pre-election promise was the wrong thing to do and the reversal was the right thing to do. So if he splits the populace into old-and-new stock to gain votes, but does not really believe it, I can have some sympathy. But in an issue such as this, a "LEADER" might be more of a leader if he used his pulpit to educate rather than pander. .. I don't have much sympathy for a leader who tries to win through divisive identity politics. This isn't about promising to kill the GST and then not doing it, because it turns out the GST makes good sense. But I'll be the first to say I think this has been blown completely out of proportion. It does go to prove that Harper is quite capable of his own bozo moments, and that of the three, Mulcair is pretty much the best debater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeferMadness Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 I already explained why he has to think that way. He has to consider how policies will play with Canadians of all kinds. Why? In 2011, about 5.8 million people voted Conservative which is around 17% of Canada's population. In return for convincing 17% of the population to vote for him, he received 54% of the seats, which gave him 100% of the power. So, at the very most, he needs to consider how 17% of Canadians will view his policies. And that 17% is not spread across the population. It is mostly older, less educated, less intelligent, white middle aged males. But it gets worse than that. Most of the party's core supporters have decided well in advance of the election where their vote is going. So barring something truly bizarre, he has to focus on a much smaller number of people in "swing ridings" where the seats will be determined on the basis of undecided voters. yay for democracy in Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Why? In 2011, about 5.8 million people voted Conservative which is around 17% of Canada's population. He only has to convince the percentage of the population that is eligible to vote and will bother to do so, not 17% of the entire population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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