The Manifesto For The Global Peoples On Ending Communism

[ReeferMadness]

I don't think communism is evil so much as the totalitarian regimes that were build within the ideologies of ie: Leninism and Maoism are evil. Communism is an economic system, while totalitarianism and democracy are forms of political systems. There's nothing inherent within the economic system that is communism that says that the political institutions that support it must be totalitarian, and there's nothing to say a country with a communist economy can't have a democratic government. If the majority of the people in a country support a communist economy, that's democracy.

Exactly so.

Read George Orwell's classic Animal Farm. When the communists seized power in Russia, it was with promises that everything would be different. Only it turned out things weren't different, just the masters changed.

If Orwell were around today, he might write a sequel to Animal Farm to illustrate what happened when communism collapsed in Russia. It's still an authoritarian regime, not quite as totalitarian but just as corrupt. And this time, the masters didn't even change. They just became the oligarchs and robbed the state blind.

[eyeball]

That's a ridiculous statement. Checks and balances can be introduced into any form of government. Your statement shows that you've come to this discussion with a closed mind.

They've come into it with a skewed mind. Consider the notion that communism tries to do this or that as of it was a living thing possessed with a mind of it's own. It's ludicrous - communism is just a thing like, well, capitalism for example and like anything else it's what people do with these things that counts.

[Topaz]

after 9/11, I read an article that said "communism" is being replace by "terrorism". I wonder what will replace terrorism?

[bush_cheney2004]

....If Orwell were around today, he might write a sequel to Animal Farm to illustrate what happened when communism collapsed in Russia.

It was not communism.....it was Marxist-Leninism that mutated into Stalinism. Just ask Leon Trotsky.

[ReeferMadness]

after 9/11, I read an article that said "communism" is being replace by "terrorism". I wonder what will replace terrorism?

Exactly. Which brings us to Orwell's other masterpiece, 1984. The enemies change but there always needs to be an enemy. The sheep need to be kept scared so they stay in a herd and bleat on cue.

[Moonlight Graham]

Now let return to history, we see that where there was communism or even socialism, where there was big famine from which many lives lost (thirty millions lives lost in China because of only one big famine).

Is that communism as an economic system evil or not?

Well, you could argue that there are flaws within the communist economic systems that have been tried which have made them inefficient and helped lead to famines and other economic hardships. On the other hand, communism in Russia led to very quick industrialization that helped the country develop economically where it hadn't before. I would say communist economies (in the forms that have been tried) are mostly inefficient, but i'm not sure whether or not I'd call them evil. Maybe? I'd have to think about it more...

Both of us agree that " Leninism and Maoism are evil ".

Yes. Totalitarian governments in general I'd say are evil, or at least always seems to lead to evil things.

[Freddy]

It is never the intent for a communist country to start off hard and merciless in punishment. Ideally everyone would just do as they are told with perfect trust they would be treated equally.

Unfortunately people don't work their butts off for the greater good of others in good faith others will work their butts off as well so that their needs are also met. It's not long before one falls out of line and must be punished.

Working your butt off to better yourself and your situation. That is natural, and you don't need to submit me to constant fear to achieve it.

Taxing my productivity for the greater good of our society, channeling my self motivation, greed, into a positive thing.

When you look at them simply like I have, it's easy to realize what a retarded idea communism is.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Freddy

[Exegesisme]

Well, you could argue that there are flaws within the communist economic systems that have been tried which have made them inefficient and helped lead to famines and other economic hardships. On the other hand, communism in Russia led to very quick industrialization that helped the country develop economically where it hadn't before. I would say communist economies (in the forms that have been tried) are mostly inefficient, but i'm not sure whether or not I'd call them evil. Maybe? I'd have to think about it more...

Yes. Totalitarian governments in general I'd say are evil, or at least always seems to lead to evil things.

Thank you for reasonable thinking.

I have another reason. For they believe there is a perfect plan for economy, and economy is fundamental for superstructure according to Marx, their politics should fit the perfect plan of economy to take the form of totalitarian, and their ideology also should take the form of determinism of communism. The real world is take the theory of quantum, which means only probability is really real. But they believe they catch truth, and actually they do not, so they use all lies and violence to carry on their policies in every aspects which have caused huge disasters in every aspects too.

That communism economical system is the core part in that paper work of Marx, remember this. Marx is different from other philosophers on which he stressed that his paper work was scientific truth and not for thinking anymore, and only for practise. He lacked the basic prudence about his paper work. The western world has the prudence to know its evil and threw it away ultimately, and the eastern world has not the ability to know its evil, so until today still has suffered from the evil paper work. From that whole life of Marx and his paper work, we can learn that he worshiped absolute material power.

But Plato is really great, he reasoned the ideal form just for human mind, not even forced anyone included Aristotle to believe it and carry it on practically.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Exegesisme

[Moonlight Graham]

Socialists lack the understanding and acceptance that humans will rarely act contrarily to what will benefit themselves. It's the flaw they do not comprehend and is why it's unnatural. It's all in the fundamentals.

As a animal you will act in direct benefit to yourself. Survival is the root of why we behave that way.

Humans are technically animals yes, but we aren't savages and neanderthals anymore. We can be civilized, with laws and constitutions etc. Unlike other animals, humans have the ability of complex reasoning, to philosophize, to have morality. Other animals also live in perpetual subsistence, but humans have reached the point where we can far produce more than our needs require, which brings other moral questions.

I get your point about humans being selfish by nature. But why does it feel good to help other people? What is the evolutionary purpose of having natural satisfaction when helping those in need? Maybe it's because humans are social animals by nature. Humans spent most of our history living in small communities where we all knew each other and where we had to help each other to survive & prosper. Capitalism is an economic system that takes advantage of the selfish side of human nature. What if an economic system were designed that was both efficient and that took advantage of the altruistic side of human nature?

[Freddy]

I get your point about humans being selfish by nature. But why does it feel good to help other people? What is the evolutionary purpose of having natural satisfaction when helping those in need? Maybe it's because humans are social animals by nature. Humans spent most of our history living in small communities where we all knew each other and where we had to help each other to survive & prosper. Capitalism is an economic system that takes advantage of the selfish side of human nature. What if an economic system were designed that was both efficient and that took advantage of the altruistic side of human nature?

Isn't that exactly what we already are??? We have a system based on our own motivation and greed, and are taxing the productivity for the greater good of the whole society.

Effectively channelling a selfish animal instinct for the greater good of the country.

It's brilliance.

If anything , this system we have is as ideal as it gets. The only issues are always at the top. Of course accountability is difficult to execute at the top without having to much power in one hand.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Freddy

[Exegesisme]

Isn't that exactly what we already are??? We have a system based on our own motivation and greed, and are taxing the productivity for the greater good of the whole society.

Effectively channelling a selfish animal instinct for the greater good of the country.

It's brilliance.

If anything , this system we have is as ideal as it gets. The only issues are always at the top. Of course accountability is difficult to execute at the top without having to much power in one hand.

Humans are technically animals yes, but we aren't savages and neanderthals anymore. We can be civilized, with laws and constitutions etc. Unlike other animals, humans have the ability of complex reasoning, to philosophize, to have morality. Other animals also live in perpetual subsistence, but humans have reached the point where we can far produce more than our needs require, which brings other moral questions.

I get your point about humans being selfish by nature. But why does it feel good to help other people? What is the evolutionary purpose of having natural satisfaction when helping those in need? Maybe it's because humans are social animals by nature. Humans spent most of our history living in small communities where we all knew each other and where we had to help each other to survive & prosper. Capitalism is an economic system that takes advantage of the selfish side of human nature. What if an economic system were designed that was both efficient and that took advantage of the altruistic side of human nature?

I am glad to discuss with you both.

I see a difference between you as following:

Freddy​ : If anything , this system we have is as ideal as it gets. The only issues are always at the top. Of course accountability is difficult to execute at the top without having to much power in one hand.

Moonlight Graham​: Capitalism is an economic system that takes advantage of the selfish side of human nature. What if an economic system were designed that was both efficient and that took advantage of the altruistic side of human nature?

I agree with both of you, and have a theory (my own theory) to include your ideas.

I am top-ism, which you can think as the name of my theory, which means always thinking for the being over top and transcending top, and refining any thing under top to the top and then transcending it to the being over top.

Top-ism can be used for faith, any beauty under top can be refined to the top, and then believe a much more beautiful vision of it with the being over top. If see top as now, then under top as history, and over top as future.

To Freddy, "issues are always at the top", so we need creatively to create the being over the top to avoid these issues at the top. You know, for a specific system, there is a specific set of issues which can not solved in the system, we need a new system to transcend the system and then avoid its specific issues all together.

To Moonlight Graham, I admit there is altruistic side of human nature, and even in some relations this side is very strong. However, usually, the selfish side of human nature is more general and deep, and we can use the selfish side to explain the altruistic side, and we can not use the altruistic side to explain the selfish side. Therefore, I created a theory of morality firstly on human selfish nature , and around this core, let the selfish benefits and altruistic benefits grow alternatively. This moral theory with top-ism together, I hope that the creative evolution of human society may speed up.

[Freddy]

I am glad to discuss with you both.

To Freddy, "issues are always at the top", so we need creatively to create the being over the top to avoid these issues at the top. You know, for a specific system, there is a specific set of issues which can not solved in the system, we need a new system to transcend the system and then avoid its specific issues all together

So what we need is a "Jedi council" to hold the top accountable. Unfortunately, until Yoda can be discovered with the help of space travel. We will have to live with some corruption. Edited August 23, 2015 by Freddy

[Exegesisme]

So what we need is a "Jedi council" to hold the top accountable. Unfortunately, until Yoda can be discovered with the help of space travel. We will have to live with some corruption at the top.

Even at the top, imperfection still is.

Discussion about Top-ism And Selfish Morality, please go to the new topic http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24832-top-ism-and-selfish-morality/

Edited August 23, 2015 by Exegesisme

[WIP]

If we did it because it was the only way we could survive these situations, then we are still following our individual selfish basic instinct of self interest to stay alive and happy.

I bet in the face of one bigger common enemy. Muslims and Christians wouldn't have a problem working together in the common goal of not being exterminated.

I don't believe you truly understand nor do I believe you are capable of understanding.

I understand that we are moving in the wrong direction, and have been heading the wrong way since we started on the enlightenment project three centuries ago. But the ramping up of libertarian ruthless individualism is suicidal!

[Exegesisme]

I understand that we are moving in the wrong direction, and have been heading the wrong way since we started on the enlightenment project three centuries ago. But the ramping up of libertarian ruthless individualism is suicidal!

I am trying to create a way out of the wrong direction,

you can discuss your concern at this thread http://www.mapleleaf...lfish-morality/ (if you enjoy the theory)

or this thread http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24828-8-weaknesses-of-federal-political-system-and-reform/

(if you enjoy how to practically create a right direction).

The thread here is calling for the end of one of the wrong directions.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Exegesisme