Truth and Reconciliation... Legitimacy

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

Not at all....I'm insinuating that the CBC and other Canadian media were purposely asleep at the wheel.

I guess it would have caused quite the ruckus:

In other news today, the RCMP forcefully removed 173 "aboriginal" children from their parents and delivered them into the hands of church officials who run our very popular Residential School System. Like so many Canadian parents experience, it was like going to summer camp for the youngsters.

Up next...hockey news !

Again you try and introduce the Cbc into a very important topic.

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

There could be other reasons. I'm not saying it isn't racism or it is.

Charges were laid in TRC cases and hockey abuse cases.

http://www.trc.ca/websites/trcinstitution/index.php?p=8

Perhaps the posters can provide reasons why the FN victims are not to be believed when other victims are?

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

People lie when there is incentive and whenever hearsay evidence is presented the incentives to lie must be considered. For example, abuse allegations often come up during acrimonious child custody cases so it is reasonable to ask whether the accuser is lying to gain advantage in the dispute.

When it comes to residential schools issue various native groups have turned it into a religion that ensures that any native person who did not have a bad experience would pressured to be quiet about it and people who exaggerate and/or lie are rewarded with attention and sympathy from their peers. While there can be no smoke without fire, anyone who thinks these stories have not been systematically exaggerated is extremely naive and does not understand human nature.

Why don't we hear this logic with other nhl player victims and victims from the church?

Hal 9000 · June 13, 2015

Not at all....I'm insinuating that the CBC and other Canadian media were purposely asleep at the wheel.

I guess it would have caused quite the ruckus:

In other news today, the RCMP forcefully removed 173 "aboriginal" children from their parents and delivered them into the hands of church officials who run our very popular Residential School System. Like so many Canadian parents experience, it was like going to summer camp for the youngsters.

Up next...hockey news !

If what you say is true; they must have been asleep if hockey was a secondary story! Whaaaat?

Edited June 13, 2015 by Hal 9000

poochy · June 13, 2015

Perhaps the posters can provide reasons why the FN victims are not to be believed when other victims are?

Im not sure that anyone has said that, people, even on subjects like this, will lie for personal gain, some will even 'lie' by being conditioned to believe something that didn't happen. However, i don't doubt that the vast majority, as in so many as that it makes the minority irrelevant, are telling what they believe to be the truth, it still doesn't make it genocide, but this did happen.

TimG · June 13, 2015

Perhaps the posters can provide reasons why the FN victims are not to be believed when other victims are?

Incentive to lie is a relevant consideration. As I noted above an accusation of abuse made during an acrimonious child custody case should be viewed more skeptically than the same accusation when there is no custody case.

The residential schools issue has been politicized and made part of the justification for various native demands which makes the incentive to lie huge compared to a few hockey players who only want the guilty individual to face justice.

When it comes to the church accusation I remember similar skepticism because the incentive to lie to get a big cash settlement from the catholic church was there.

Edited June 13, 2015 by TimG

bush_cheney2004 · June 13, 2015

Again you try and introduce the Cbc into a very important topic.

Where was the CBC when all this was going down....or afterwards ?

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

Im not sure that anyone has said that, people, even on subjects like this, will lie for personal gain, some will even 'lie' by being conditioned to believe something that didn't happen. However, i don't doubt that the vast majority, as in so many as that it makes the minority irrelevant, are telling what they believe to be the truth, it still doesn't make it genocide, but this did happen.

Of course they said that. My reading comprehension is pretty good.

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

Where was the CBC when all this was going down....or afterwards ?

Who cares. No one except you.

bush_cheney2004 · June 13, 2015

Who cares. No one except you.

I'm pretty sure you don't speak for everybody else....then...or now.

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

I'm pretty sure you don't speak for everybody else....then...or now.

Except when it's you speaking about the Cbc. And I'm now putting you on ignore so I don't get suspended. Edited June 13, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

bush_cheney2004 · June 13, 2015

Except when it's you speaking about the Cbc.

Nope...not even then. The CBC certainly didn't speak for the "aboriginals" in the residential school system.

jacee · June 13, 2015

What proof gave you got that any of that actually happened? People lie, especially when a lot of money is involved. They're asking for a Trillion dollars here at least. So I'll need more than a First Nation persons story. I need verifiable proof.

You're lying.

.

jacee · June 13, 2015

If the abuse was as rampant and severe as has been reported, there would be supporting documentation. Hospital records, police records etc. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I do feel that many of the stories that are just now coming to light may be of the jumping on the potential money bandwagon variety.

If you actually read anything to find out anything you would know the answer to that.

Come back when you do.

I'm tired of doing lazy children's research for them.

.

Edited June 13, 2015 by jacee

jacee · June 13, 2015

People lie when there is incentive and whenever hearsay evidence is presented the incentives to lie must be considered. For example, abuse allegations often come up during acrimonious child custody cases so it is reasonable to ask whether the accuser is lying to gain advantage in the dispute.

When it comes to residential schools issue various native groups have turned it into a religion that ensures that any native person who did not have a bad experience would pressured to be quiet about it and people who exaggerate and/or lie are rewarded with attention and sympathy from their peers. While there can be no smoke without fire, anyone who thinks these stories have not been systematically exaggerated is extremely naive and does not understand human nature.

Cite?

Do you have any evidence at all to support your very serious allegations?

Or are you just lying?

.

jacee · June 13, 2015

Why can't most people seem to recognize the difference between the types of evidence that exist? Testimonials are NOT formally pure forms of evidence. They are INDUCED not DEDUCED. Nor are we able to directly observe such evidences as they are secondary reports of observations.

What is being asked of many of us here is whether there are direct proof? If such abuses actually occurred, why do we have no criminal convictions of anyone to even give such direct force to the claims? To protect the 'victims'? Not valid since if this abuse occurred since the beginning, what and whom are we protecting to those who have long past died?

The ONLY reason this is being quickly 'accepted' by governments is to preserve the nature of the moronic religious institutions, traditions, cultures, and the certain losses that would occur financially and culturally to the establishment of these institutes and the people behind them! All parties here support them because all of them represent significant religious concerns.

Well?

Have you read the TRC report yet to try to find answers to your questions?

Or are you just making it up as you go?

.

Hal 9000 · June 13, 2015

Cite?

Do you have any evidence at all to support your very serious allegations?

Or are you just lying?

.

Are you actually asking for a citation to prove that sometimes people lie for personal gain?

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

Are you actually asking for a citation to prove that sometimes people lie for personal gain?

Why aren't other victims of sexual assault from the catholic church or nhl players being accused of lying for personal gain. It seems that the FN victims are being singled.

jacee · June 13, 2015

Are you actually asking for a citation to prove that sometimes people lie for personal gain?

I'm asking TimG for evidence that people have lied ... or is he just lying about that?

.

cybercoma · June 13, 2015

My experience tells me that when you make the jump to try and divine what is in someone's heart, you will not get anywhere with people who agree with that person.

Can you answer the question about what was different between such cases based on facts that everyone can agree to ?

It's a reasonable assessment when you have people that care a whole lot about victims rights, so much so that they endorse regressive punitive legislation with no regard for decreasing victimization in the first place, yet when you talk about FN victims, their stories, and their testimony, suddenly we're not sure about their credibility. Likewise when women say they've been raped. Suddenly, people want more evidence and question their credibility. It's easy to see in people's inconsistencies when they hold racial and misogynistic biases. Edited June 13, 2015 by cybercoma

jacee · June 13, 2015

What puzzles me about people questioning the credibility of FN victim impact statements is that we didn't hear this outcry when victims came forward to accuse members from the Catholic Church of assault. Or when nhl players came forward to accuse coaches of assault.

The questioning of FN's statements is clearly based on racism

Yes it is.

.

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

. It's easy to see in people's inconsistencies when they hold racial and misogynistic biases.

Thank you!

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

Yes it is.

.

Thank you!

Michael Hardner · June 14, 2015

It's a reasonable assessment when you have people that care a whole lot about victims rights, so much so that they endorse regressive punitive legislation with no regard for decreasing victimization in the first place, yet when you talk about FN victims, their stories, and their testimony, suddenly we're not sure about their credibility. Likewise when women say they've been raped. Suddenly, people want more evidence and question their credibility. It's easy to see in people's inconsistencies when they hold racial and misogynistic biases.

Sure, it's a reasonable guess as to the person's motivations, but it inevitably leads to the spiral of I'm not racist/yes you are.

There are other ways it could go: ask why these cases are different, let others explain their beliefs based on facts. There have been a few posts that have shown that criminal charges happened, so the assertion that 'nothing happened' can't reasonably be made IMO.

If you base it on facts rather than motivations, it just seems to me that you can take the conversation farther. Personally, I'm intrigued to find out what principles people hold, and whether they can stay with those principles when the political topography pivots around them.

We have an example here about hockey coach abuse, and there are others too.

WestCoastRunner · June 14, 2015

If you base it on facts rather than motivations, it just seems to me that you can take the conversation farther. Personally, I'm intrigued to find out what principles people hold, and whether they can stay with those principles when the political topography pivots around them.

We have an example here about hockey coach abuse, and there are others too.

Well, I have certainly tried to take this conversation further by asking posters why they question FN's statements and I have yet to hear credible responses except that they are only looking for a payout.