War Crimes - Afghanistan

[PIK]

This one made me laugh. All the people wanting harper up for war crimes ,seems to forget that Afghanistan was chretiens war. All harper did was give them the proper equipment to survive.

[Big Guy]

I guess you can evaluate the success or failure of a war or "peace keeping mission" from the number of politicians who want to take credit and how many want to wash their hands of it.

[Big Guy]

For Canadian troops it was "don't look and don't tell". Now the Americans are owning up to their selective blindness.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?_r=0

It was a dirty secret in the Western military camps that Afghanistan soldiers kidnapped, and raped young boys. We were being fed that we were there "to allow little girls to go to school" but meanwhile it was OK to rape little boys by our Afghanistan allies.

Anybody else out there still believe what we are being fed about what is happening in Iraq and Syria - and why we are there?

Oh - for those who think that it is only the USA troops who looked the other way:

http://www.thestar.com/news/2008/06/16/dont_look_dont_tell_troops_told.html

and

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2012/04/09/afghanistans_dancing_boys_are_invisible_victims.html

Edited September 22, 2015 by Big Guy

[eyeball]

So much for being told Islamists kill gays...but of course this is pedophilia. My apologies to the Islamist LBGT community.

I'll be surprised if every single soldier we sent over there doesn't finally succumb to PTSD due to moral dissonance. If there's going to be a Canadian discussion about what it means to have a powerful army in the future we may want to talk about limiting our recruitment efforts to cold-blooded sociopaths who could just laugh this sort of thing off and come home with their psyches intact. That said we may also want to screen volunteers for pedophilia.

At least our government drew a line at girls having acid thrown in their faces.

[Rue]

PIK in case you haven't noticed the same bunch that raise the topic of war crimes will only do it to blame Bush not Obama, Harper, or any Jew that walks including Zionists. Its how it works. However we don't dare discuss Syria, the Arab League nations including that beacon of Wahabi tolerance Saudi Arabia, the utopias of Syria, Lebanon, Sudan, Yemen, Bahrain, Turkey, Iran, Malawi, Russia, China and on and on. See if its a Sharia law nation, China or Russia, we skip that. Our selective process of accusing people of war crimes only relates to those we think are poo poo heads.

[eyeball]

In his campaign to name and shame evil, though, Canada's Conservative leader seldom mentions Assad. Neither do most other Western leaders; the unfortunate truth is that Assad has become, objectively speaking, a Western ally against ISIS.

Source

[Argus]

For Canadian troops it was "don't look and don't tell". Now the Americans are owning up to their selective blindness.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?_r=0

It was a dirty secret in the Western military camps that Afghanistan soldiers kidnapped, and raped young boys. We were being fed that we were there "to allow little girls to go to school" but meanwhile it was OK to rape little boys by our Afghanistan allies.

I posted this elsewhere. I don't get why YOU should be bothered, though, given the same culture exists in Iran, who you adore and want us to dump Israel and befriend.

[Argus]

So much for being told Islamists kill gays...but of course this is pedophilia. My apologies to the Islamist LBGT community.

What, you don't want us to respect their culture? What happened to being inclusive!? What happened to not saying our Western values were better and pushing them on poor third world people?

[bush_cheney2004]

What, you don't want us to respect their culture? What happened to being inclusive!? What happened to not saying our Western values were better and pushing them on poor third world people?

That's a fair question...c'mon multiculturlists...what gives ?

[eyeball]

What, you don't want us to respect their culture?

Lest we forget, it was our forces who respected the culture of sexual abuse of kids in the police and security forces we trained, outfitted and empowered.

What happened to being inclusive!?

Unlike you I would never include myself with the sort of ilk that would condone this behaviour.

What happened to not saying our Western values were better and pushing them on poor third world people?

l don't know. I still say our values suck just as bad as the people we employ to push them on poor people. As I've said many times, knowing how well you pay attention, we're no better than the people we ally ourselves with and are actually worse because we should know better.

[Rue]

Eyeball you made an utterly false statement. Back it up. You just slandered the entire Canadian Armed Forces as respecting the culture of sex abuse.

This is what you have lowered yourself too now-making false statements with zero proof.

Now put up or shut up. Your comment is a sheer fabrication.

[Rue]

Does anyone else what to come on this forum and call the Canadian Armed Forces sex abusers or can this thread die now that Eye has debased it as far as the discussion can get. Amy one else want to engage in puerility?

Edited September 27, 2015 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

Does anyone else what to come on this forum and call the Canadian Armed Forces sex abusers or can this thread die now that Eye has debased it as far as the discussion can get.

You have challenged eyeball for a cite, so let's see what he says.

[Argus]

Lest we forget, it was our forces who respected the culture of sexual abuse of kids in the police and security forces we trained, outfitted and empowered.

So you're saying we shouldn't have respected their culture?

Unlike you I would never include myself with the sort of ilk that would condone this behaviour.

Mandatory sneering insult which every proper Leftist has to fit into every post.

l don't know. I still say our values suck just as bad as the people we employ to push them on poor people. As I've said many times, knowing how well you pay attention, we're no better than the people we ally ourselves with and are actually worse because we should know better.

So your position is we shouldn't ally ourselves with anyone other than western democracies? Have I got that pretty much right?

[Big Guy]

In the early stages of the Canadian war against the Taliban, I began to be very concerned with the restrictions placed on our soldiers in the war zone. I wrote about it at the time and expressed my concerns directly to our military.

Our soldiers were ordered to ignore the growing of opium and to not destroy any plants during operations in case we get the farmers angry.

http://www.cbc.ca/news2/background/afghanistan/joint-command.html

Our soldiers were also ordered to ignore incidences of our military allies sexually abusing young boys.

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/story.html?id=4637439f-5bda-46bd-b325-8e0b7fd7bb55

If the references given above are not acceptable I suggest that any detailed Google search will highlight many other sources.

I guess the question can be raised that if one is in a position of authority and ignores sexual abuse then is one condoning and/or participating in the abuse? One can always use the old "I was only doing what I was ordered to do" excuse but that defense was rejected during the Nuremburg trials. One could also argue that we had to maintain a good working relationship with the Afghan forces which we were training and supporting. If that included turning a blind eye to sexual abuse of children then that is what our soldiers were expected to do - if you believe that the end justifies the means.

I leave that to the bright lights on this board to argue against the facts - as usual.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Big Guy

[eyeball]

Eyeball you made an utterly false statement. Back it up. You just slandered the entire Canadian Armed Forces as respecting the culture of sex abuse.

This is what you have lowered yourself too now-making false statements with zero proof.

Now put up or shut up. Your comment is a sheer fabrication.

Actually it was Argus who implied the sexual abuse of young boys was a cultural practice. Not asking and not telling sure sounds like a fairly tacit display of respect for that culture to me.

In any case, do you have any evidence of Canadian soldiers arresting Afghan pedophiles or members of our Coalition that enabled it by keeping quiet? If not maybe you should borrow a page from your own scribblings and shaddup and be tolerant, just like our troops.

Here's a cite you might find interesting.

respect

noun admiration given by others

appreciation, consideration, deference, dignity, esteem, fear, honor, recognition, regard, reverence, tribute, account, adoration, approbation, courtesy, estimation, favor, homage, obeisance, ovation, repute, testimonials, veneration, worship

Concept Thesaurus for word respect

2. Moral sentiments

Synonyms - noun

respect, attention, esteem, approbation, regard, deference, estimation, homage, consideration, reverence, veneration, fealty, courtesy, honor, admiration,

obeisance

More words related to respect

accept

verb. put up with

acknowledge, acquiesce, agree, assent, bear, bear with, bow, capitulate, defer to, don't make waves, don't rock the boat, endure, fit in, go along with, live with, play the game, recognize, respect, sit still for, stand, stand for, stomach, submit to, suffer, swallow, take, tolerate, yield to

Cite

Any of our troops that are found guilty of any of the above definitions and terms as it pertains to the sexual abuse of kids by allies that we trained and armed, should be court-martialled and deported to Afghanistan for trial.

Edited September 28, 2015 by eyeball

[Michael Hardner]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34328398

http://www.thestar.com/news/2008/06/16/dont_look_dont_tell_troops_told.html

Don't look, don't tell, troops told Canadian soldiers serving in Afghanistan have been ordered by commanding officers "to ignore" incidents of sexual assault among the civilian population, says a military chaplain who counsels troops returning home with post-traumatic stress disorder.

[eyeball]

So you're saying we shouldn't have respected their culture?

Not in this case. We should have excoriated it.

Mandatory sneering insult which every proper Leftist has to fit into every post.

If you're not condoning the policy of not asking and not telling then what are you doing exactly? Respecting it apparently, in fact I'd bet the whole story made ROTFLYAO.

So your position is we shouldn't ally ourselves with anyone other than western democracies? Have I got that pretty much right?

In addition to also scrapping many of the alliances we have with western democracies.

[eyeball]

So you're saying we shouldn't have respected their culture?

Our policy of not asking and not telling is actually one of the most repellant cultural peccadilloes we practice all the time around the world. You echo it when suggesting that the corporations we unleash around the world should just do like the people they truck and trade with do to one another to get things done. Bribery, environmental destruction, arming dictators, complicity in murder, it's all good apparently when pursuing our own interests.

[Army Guy]

For Canadian troops it was "don't look and don't tell". Now the Americans are owning up to their selective blindness.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?_r=0

It was a dirty secret in the Western military camps that Afghanistan soldiers kidnapped, and raped young boys. We were being fed that we were there "to allow little girls to go to school" but meanwhile it was OK to rape little boys by our Afghanistan allies.

Anybody else out there still believe what we are being fed about what is happening in Iraq and Syria - and why we are there?

Oh - for those who think that it is only the USA troops who looked the other way:

http://www.thestar.com/news/2008/06/16/dont_look_dont_tell_troops_told.html

and

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2012/04/09/afghanistans_dancing_boys_are_invisible_victims.html

I just want to take a minute and comment on these two topics you have brought up. I won't lie to you and say it never happened or those soldiers reports are false, but i can tell you what happened on my 3 tours.....It was a well known rumour that Afghan men enjoyed what we called dirty thursdays.....

When we first arrived in country for the first time, the old corp would give you the lay of the land, and things you should know, we concentrated on lessons learned to stay alive....and left the rumors to last....these stories were frequent, .....but with those stories, were also those that included Canadian soldiers reporting what they had witness, and those responsible had been taken away or transferred...what happened i don't know, like i said i was concentrating on staying alive, doing my job....

Within our company there was a incident of a SGT walking in on such an act, him and his section were involved in a 15 min mexican stand off, with ANP....which resulted in an Afghan officer having a C-7 pointed at his head until, the boy could be removed and returned to his village.....that officer and his men were never seen again.....A report was filed and action taken .....what happened i don't know.....nor did i look for answers....Not because i did not care, in Afghanistan those that normally did not return it was because they were buried in the desert some place......Like i said i don't know what happened to those men.....

We did not have orders to turn the other cheek....we were told time after time to report , these reports were actioned by both sides....how i do not know...

When were dealt with new ANP or ANA members we would tell them out front that we did not tolerate these activities....there would be a few jokes but the topic would not come up again.....they knew we ran our patrols at random hours and random days....they're was no way for them to hide this activity from us.....we would also confirm this by talking to the villagers when they were not present.....

In my 3 tours i did not run into this behavior ever.....Not all the ANP or ANA were dirty as portrayed in this media piece....during my tours we covered almost all the Canadian AOR, yes we all heard the rumours.....but me and my guys did not see any of it first hand....

The second was opium fields, yes we were told to leave fields as they are, not sure what tour it was, but i do remember getting this in an O group, for a couple of reasons, most of the fields were owned and controlled by local farmers....trying to make a living in a very harsh country....in turn for not messing with their crops, they kept the IED's off the roads in their area....and it was not just opium fields there was massive Marijuana fields, the largest plants i'd ever seen, to give you an idea, a LAV stands 12 feet from the highest point, i have a picture, of me standing on the turret, and below my waist is covered in plants....those of you that think you can grow pot....you got nothing on these guys.....

We hand our hands full at the time fighting terrorists, we did not need to add farmers to the list....that being said crops belonging to war lords that worked with the terrorist were targeted for destruction....and we did alot of this type of work......

While Canadian soldiers are not perfect , we are human, for the most part we share the same morals and values as you do.....don't judge them until you've walked a mile in their boots....

[Big Guy]

The good soldier does what he is ordered to do. Canadian soldiers are good soldiers. I was not on the front lines during these events and report only what information is available from others. Since these allegations have not been shown to be incorrect then our soldiers, and us, have to live with the consequences.

Our expeditions have gone from questionable to ludicrous to tragic.

I do have quite a good idea of what was happening on the ground in Afghanistan - I talk to Afghanistan veterans socially and in contacts on Legion business. I do know the soul searching that many of our young men had to go through by having to avoid destroying poppy fields - the same fields that are the source of feeding the heroin trade in Canada. Some are still having great difficulty during debriefings.

We would not have to suffer the consequences of this expedition if we spent more time investigating the causes of foreign turmoil and less on jumping on to the coattails of American foreign policy.

[Army Guy]

The good soldier does what he is ordered to do. Canadian soldiers are good soldiers. I was not on the front lines during these events and report only what information is available from others. Since these allegations have not been shown to be incorrect then our soldiers, and us, have to live with the consequences.

Our expeditions have gone from questionable to ludicrous to tragic.

I do have quite a good idea of what was happening on the ground in Afghanistan - I talk to Afghanistan veterans socially and in contacts on Legion business. I do know the soul searching that many of our young men had to go through by having to avoid destroying poppy fields - the same fields that are the source of feeding the heroin trade in Canada. Some are still having great difficulty during debriefings.

We would not have to suffer the consequences of this expedition if we spent more time investigating the causes of foreign turmoil and less on jumping on to the coattails of American foreign policy.

Good Soldiers do follow orders, but it is also a fact that Canadian soldiers do question orders, and report what is wrong, we also have moral values, that we use to guide us and our actions.....

I was commenting on my experience, and not degrading any of the other soldiers experiences ....the conflict has thousands of reasons to effect those that served there....getting PTSD from not destroying poppy fields is a stretch, it may of been a concern....but a major cause of mental disorders, never heard of it from any soldiers i served with....once again not saying it did not happen, just maybe not a major issue or cause of PTSD....

Mental disorder is a part of conflict.....regardless if the cause is good or bad....

[eyeball]

Moral cognitive dissonance shouldn't be part of it, especially when the cause is touted as being just and honourable. I can certainly see how that would screw a person up.

Edited October 3, 2015 by eyeball

[Big Guy]

The Taliban have been fighting in Kunduz Afghanistan. The USA has come flying in to help.

OOPS!

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/03/asia/afghanistan-doctors-without-borders-hospital/index.html

"Aerial bombardments hit a Doctors Without Borders hospital in the battleground Afghan city of Kunduz early Saturday, killing at least 16 people, including nine staffers and seven patients, the charity said

The global charity expressed shock, saying it had told all warring parties the exact location of the trauma center, including most recently on Tuesday."

Unless the Taliban have recently obtained bombers it looks like an American tragic fiasco.

Meanwhile, in the air above Syria, we have Syrian airplanes, Russian airplanes, Turkish airplanes, Canadian airplanes and maybe Iraqi airplanes.

Hold on to your hat!!!!

Not sure of the credibility of this site but at :

http://www.debka.com/article/24926/Chinese-warplanes-to-join-Russian-air-strikes-in-Syria-Russia-gains-Iraqi-air-base

This indicates that Chinese warplanes are going to join Russian air strikes in Syria. Russia gains Iraqi air base.

Time for Canada to get our airplanes the h#ll out of that firing range. Not only do we not know who we are supposed to be targeting but now we could get shot down for just getting into some ones way.

Hello Harper - you got us in there so get us the h#ll out!!

Edited October 3, 2015 by Big Guy

[Army Guy]

Moral cognitive dissonance shouldn't be part of it, especially when the cause is touted as being just and honourable. I can certainly see how that would screw a person up.

Then i would say you don't understand War and what it means to experience it, good or bad cause it is the same to the guy on the ground......