eyeball Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Then i would say you don't understand War and what it means to experience it, good or bad cause it is the same to the guy on the ground...... Really. If that guy can't tell the difference between good and bad - just and unjust that is - then he should have been deemed psychologically unfit for duty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 Really. If that guy can't tell the difference between good and bad - just and unjust that is - then he should have been deemed psychologically unfit for duty. Let me ask you this, is it morally ok or just to vaporize and man, leaving only his sandals....and his pink mist on the desert floor....knowing full well this man was a bad guy, but also a man, with a wife and kids.....and then the next day be flown home to your family and kids.....do you think that would cause some Moral cognitive dissonance ..... Nothing prepares a man or women for the realities of war....once you've seen it there is no going back to a normal state....it changes everyone....some more than others but everyone changes..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 Let me ask you this, is it morally ok or just to vaporize and man, leaving only his sandals....and his pink mist on the desert floor....knowing full well this man was a bad guy, but also a man, with a wife and kids.....and then the next day be flown home to your family and kids.....do you think that would cause some Moral cognitive dissonance .....No, not If you were really certain. Now let me ask you something. If you knew the guy was innocent and his wife and kids were under the thumb of a dictator we were allied with and in hindsight you developed serious doubts about the morality and legality of your government's actions, then yeah, I could easily see how that would really mess a person up. Nothing prepares a man or women for the realities of war....once you've seen it there is no going back to a normal state....it changes everyone....some more than others but everyone changes.....Nothing prepares a nation for the blow-back their government's and allies geopolitical vandalism can cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 The situation in Afghanistan continues to deteriorate. President Obama is changing tactics and keeping more American troops than planned for - withdrawing from Afghanistan has been postponed to just when the next President takes over. http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/15/politics/afghanistan-troops-obama/index.html Perhaps Canada should send troops in to kill those scumbags and murderers and allow those little girls to go to school. Perhaps not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 We all knew that the situation in Afghanistan was not over, we also knew the consequences of coalition countries pulling out. So why does this surprise you.....Most Canadians knew all of this when , we decided to leave Afghanistan to it's own fate......we left when the job was not finished....because Canadians and the rest of the western world grew tired of the effort and funding required......I don't think those in favour of an early withdrawal should have that right to point they're fingers and say " See Afghanistan is a complete failure" You got what you wanted, our nation is out of Afghanistan, it is yesterdays news....Because part of that failure is we did not see this through we just gave up when it was convenient for us to do so... All this shows the world is unless it is a short term problem , the west is not up to the task.....it also shows that we as a western coalition can not work together to solve this type of problems, we lack the patients, the will, to see it through..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 We all knew that the situation in Afghanistan was not over, we also knew the consequences of coalition countries pulling out. So why does this surprise you.....Most Canadians knew all of this when , we decided to leave Afghanistan to it's own fate......we left when the job was not finished....because Canadians and the rest of the western world grew tired of the effort and funding required... Many of us knew this would be a waste of time, that the job wouldn't get done and that the will to sustain the effort and funding would fade just the way it did long before you even went there in the first place. ...I don't think those in favour of an early withdrawal should have that right to point they're fingers and say " See Afghanistan is a complete failure" You expressed even worse disdain for people who pointed out this would fail before you even left. You got what you wanted, our nation is out of Afghanistan, it is yesterdays news....Because part of that failure is we did not see this through we just gave up when it was convenient for us to do so... Again, we told you so... All this shows the world is unless it is a short term problem , the west is not up to the task.....it also shows that we as a western coalition can not work together to solve this type of problems, we lack the patients, the will, to see it through..... Finally sinking in is it? Think it'll matter? I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Many of us knew this would be a waste of time, that the job wouldn't get done and that the will to sustain the effort and funding would fade just the way it did long before you even went there in the first place. This comment is very telling, about who we are as a nation....better yet who you are as a person....Afghanistan was one of the few conflicts that was not about oil, or big corporations....it was about helping out a nation that had endured 30 plus years of conflict, that had left them in despair, with no hope of a future, under a regime that was brutal..... It was a chance for us as a nation to give an out reached hand, and help them , give them some hope for the future..... You expressed even worse disdain for people who pointed out this would fail before you even left. Again a very telling remark.....why even try to help anyone if it is going to be too much effort or distraction..... I mean we as Canadians have the world by the balls, we don't know what extreme poverty means, nobody is starving to death, we live in a nation free from conflict, we go to the malls, spend our dollars of useless crap, we have freedoms that most only dream about.....and yet we are not willing to share any of that, because that would require effort and maybe some of our tax dollars.....I should clarify not all Canadians fell the same way you do....but alot do.... Finally sinking in is it? Think it'll matter? I don't. For me , what sank in long ago, was this nation has to faces, one it puts on for the public and world to see, " the smiling bubbly one, that says hey we are an honest, friendly, nation that want to help.....shit we even wrap ourselfs in our flag and tell everyone we invented peacekeeping, we want to help you......the second face is the one, that only cares about ME, is the government going to send my check on time, when is the hockey game on.....and why is this shit on the news about those muslim countries on again....... We talk a good game but we lack everything to put it all in motion......not all of us.....just guys like you eyeball....who are happy with their heads in the sand, who don't give a rats ass about anything else in the world or country, as long as it does not effect your personal life.....That's what sank in.....Does it matter....i think it does..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 This comment is very telling, about who we are as a nation....better yet who you are as a person....Afghanistan was one of the few conflicts that was not about oil, or big corporations....it was about helping out a nation that had endured 30 plus years of conflict, that had left them in despair, with no hope of a future, under a regime that was brutal..... It was a chance for us as a nation to give an out reached hand, and help them , give them some hope for the future..... No it was not about any of this at all. I suppose it could have turned into that and there's no reason why we couldn't start doing this tomorrow but I'd suggest we start doing so in countries where there is a much better chance of success and then build on that and go to the next one and maybe when we actually have an ethical and moral background and reputation we could start tackling the really hard nuts that need cracking. I told you that years ago too btw. Again a very telling remark.....why even try to help anyone if it is going to be too much effort or distraction..... I mean we as Canadians have the world by the balls, we don't know what extreme poverty means, nobody is starving to death, we live in a nation free from conflict, we go to the malls, spend our dollars of useless crap, we have freedoms that most only dream about.....and yet we are not willing to share any of that, because that would require effort and maybe some of our tax dollars.....I should clarify not all Canadians fell the same way you do....but alot do... See there you go again, implying that I'm some sort of ungrateful degenerate. I'll tell you what we're not willing to do, we're not willing to put principle ahead of pocket book and stop wheeling and dealing with the sorts of regimes and dictatorships that cause so much of the dysfunction that finally compels nations to use soldiers to quell the disorder. Getting in the face of interests that flood the region with military aid, weapons and reasons to use them will hurt us economically but that's the nature of sacrifice. When I see our government proposing that providing military aid to a dictator is every bit as criminal an act as providing military aid to a terrorist you'll have my attention. When I see our leaders leading us towards the view that buying useless crap from some country that doesn't give a crap about peace is the same as not giving a crap ourselves. I was basically called a communist and an enemy of the state that was with the terrorists when I suggested that back before we sent you off on your quest. For me , what sank in long ago, was this nation has to faces, one it puts on for the public and world to see, " the smiling bubbly one, that says hey we are an honest, friendly, nation that want to help.....shit we even wrap ourselfs in our flag and tell everyone we invented peacekeeping, we want to help you......the second face is the one, that only cares about ME, is the government going to send my check on time, when is the hockey game on.....and why is this shit on the news about those muslim countries on again....... Hmmmm, this sank in with me a long time ago too. Go figure. We talk a good game but we lack everything to put it all in motion......not all of us.....just guys like you eyeball....who are happy with their heads in the sand, who don't give a rats ass about anything else in the world or country, as long as it does not effect your personal life.....That's what sank in.....Does it matter....i think it does..... It's funny how I agree with all this except that it's guy's like you who have their heads in the sand. Why do we keep talking past each other like this? I don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 No it was not about any of this at all. I suppose it could have turned into that and there's no reason why we couldn't start doing this tomorrow but I'd suggest we start doing so in countries where there is a much better chance of success and then build on that and go to the next one and maybe when we actually have an ethical and moral background and reputation we could start tackling the really hard nuts that need cracking. I told you that years ago too btw. Then what about the Afghanistan conflict told you it would be a waste of time and effort ? And while your convinced that it was not our intention to help a nation in need, what was our intentions in Afghanistan......why do you think we sent combat troops and Aid to destroy the bad guys ?.... I know for me personally, it was a chance to help...a chance to stand up for someone who could not fight for themselves.....a chance to perhaps give someone some of the things i and most Canadians take for granted everyday......some thing as simple as clean drinking water, to be able to go to school, walk in the market.......maybe one day some freedom and security to raise a family.....It is hard not to go to a place and meet the locals and not get emotional attached to the people and their culture.....it was easy developing a hatred for the Taliban and there terrorist buddies.....see first hand what they were capable of, what their goals where, and how far they would go to accomplish them.....to enslave an entire nation, so they could live out their perverted dreams of islam.... See there you go again, implying that I'm some sort of ungrateful degenerate. I'll tell you what we're not willing to do, we're not willing to put principle ahead of pocket book and stop wheeling and dealing with the sorts of regimes and dictatorships that cause so much of the dysfunction that finally compels nations to use soldiers to quell the disorder. Getting in the face of interests that flood the region with military aid, weapons and reasons to use them will hurt us economically but that's the nature of sacrifice. When I see our government proposing that providing military aid to a dictator is every bit as criminal an act as providing military aid to a terrorist you'll have my attention. When I see our leaders leading us towards the view that buying useless crap from some country that doesn't give a crap about peace is the same as not giving a crap ourselves. I was basically called a communist and an enemy of the state that was with the terrorists when I suggested that back before we sent you off on your quest. I've called you alot of things Eyeball, but never an ungrateful degenerate.....those are your words not mine.....i think i would have used selfish, how else would describe it....i mean how did the Afghan conflict your life personally....other than cost you a few bucks in taxes.....there was no time, or effort required on your part .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 This dialogue seems like it has the potential to reveal a lot. Both participants are talking about the positive and negative aspects of the conflict: its goals, its exit strategy. Some points from both: AG: The Canadian people's small appetite and low attention plan is at odds with their self-image as peacekeepers and helpers; Afghanistan needs our help; Canada has a lot and it doesn't take much from the average Canadian to assist eyeball: The effort was poorly spent, and we should have known from the outset it would fail; we should focus on countries where we can have a better chance of success; we support dictators and support military aid for them Questions: AG - what's a reasonable time frame to expect Canadians to support continued military support for Afghanistan ? Did the government ever state a timeframe for success ? What's the political appetite for such discussion ? eyeball - what are the specific examples you are speaking of ? what are the factors, and what should be the factors in deciding whether to send Canadian forces to a region ? how would this have affected past policy in places like Somalia, Yugoslavia, and other conflicts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I think that if this nation takes on any commitment, it should see it through period.....If the decision was well thought out and researched then we would know those answers before we commit.... The government was constantly setting time tables, but failed to reach the goals in those time frames....one has to keep in mind that the practice of nation building has not been done for a while... There is no Appetite in Canada for anything military......with one exception of Peacekeeping, then for some reason they don't care what the cost be it lives or treasure......And yet....peacekeeping today does not exist today as it did once before..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I think that if this nation takes on any commitment, it should see it through period.....If the decision was well thought out and researched then we would know those answers before we commit.... So what's reasonable ? The government was constantly setting time tables, but failed to reach the goals in those time frames....one has to keep in mind that the practice of nation building has not been done for a while... Ok, and also that there is a tremendous amount of politics involved, with a built-in advantage to misleading the public - not saying whether this happened. There is no Appetite in Canada for anything military...... Maybe we shouldn't be doing it ? I hear you, AG, but it seems to me that there's no advantage in anybody standing up and telling the truth about what Canada really is with regards to these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Then what about the Afghanistan conflict told you it would be a waste of time and effort ? And while your convinced that it was not our intention to help a nation in need, what was our intentions in Afghanistan......why do you think we sent combat troops and Aid to destroy the bad guys ? All the other failures that preceded it. We went there to help the US destroy Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. We failed and made things worse just like you were told would happen. I know for me personally, it was a chance to help...a chance to stand up for someone who could not fight for themselves.....a chance to perhaps give someone some of the things i and most Canadians take for granted everyday......some thing as simple as clean drinking water, to be able to go to school, walk in the market.......maybe one day some freedom and security to raise a family.....It is hard not to go to a place and meet the locals and not get emotional attached to the people and their culture..... These are reasons for going that emerged after the fact. As I said there are dozens of other countries and millions of other kids that need help in the world. I can easily see why and how an emotional attachment would develop and I felt it too and it's why I said you guy's should just grab as many women and kids as you could and get them the hell out of there. Every single cargo plane we sent over there should have come home stuffed to the rafters with refugees. I also said we should do this so that maybe one day they would feel compelled to go back and help rebuild but pffft. Going the Kumbiya route makes people want to barf, I get that but I still feel like rubbing people's nose in it anyway. I've called you alot of things Eyeball, but never an ungrateful degenerate.....those are your words not mine.....i think i would have used selfish, how else would describe it.. Exasperated. ..i mean how did the Afghan conflict your life personally....other than cost you a few bucks in taxes.....there was no time, or effort required on your part .... It pissed me off that we were there to help the same allies that caused terrorists to hate and attack us in the first place. It still offends me, I think it's disgusting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 This dialogue seems like it has the potential to reveal a lot. Both participants are talking about the positive and negative aspects of the conflict: its goals, its exit strategy. This dialog is going nowhere. Case in point...it's 2015 and you still need examples of dictators. eyeball - what are the specific examples you are speaking of ? what are the factors, and what should be the factors in deciding whether to send Canadian forces to a region ? how would this have affected past policy in places like Somalia, Yugoslavia, and other conflicts ? I'd say the biggest factor would be where people need protection from dictators, warlords and invaders, especially any of these that count on military aid from developed modern democracies. If that sounds like suicide then better we just stay home and hunker down. You need to be aware that I'm talking about what we coulda and shoulda done...in the past, like decades ago. I don't think there's a damn thing that we can do now as far as the world goes. There are just too many 8 balls sitting in it's way - we're already gone past the point of failed states to failed regions. Like I said elsewhere barring the technological singularity or a rescue mission from Alpha Centauri I think we've hooped ourselves. The biggest 8 ball looming on the horizon now, ecological and environmental sustainability, or lack thereof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 I don't think anyone can say with 100% correctness that Bin Laden was behind 9/11. I've read many articles on this and one item that kinda makes sense is Israel because they wanted the US and others to go into the ME because of the countries there that had threat the country. Bin Laden denied having anything to do with it and the US probably wanted him dead anyway the was a CIA OP and knew too much. I also believe the possibility of an inside job in the US because the of who was in the White House, Prez and VP weren't exactly honest people and looking back on 9/11, it lead the US to where it is today, two ME leaders dead and more power in the ME. just something to think about. http://www.911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Case in point...it's 2015 and you still need examples of dictators. Still ? Not sure what you mean, as I'm just asking you about your thoughts on this and I don't think we've had this conversation before. You need to be aware that I'm talking about what we coulda and shoulda done...in the past, like decades ago. I don't think there's a damn thing that we can do now as far as the world goes. There are dictators that we're supporting today though, right ? I think the next step of the discussion might be to identify sources of information that highlight our worst tendencies to support such people in the guise of regional stability, or some national interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 I've read many articles on this and one item that kinda makes sense is Israel because they wanted the US and others to go into the ME because of the countries there that had threat the country. It's too complex a plan, and with too many risks for Israel. They had no idea whether or not the US would invade Afghanistan, and even then how much of a threat was Afghanistan to Israel ? Bin Laden denied having anything to do with it and the US probably wanted him dead anyway the was a CIA OP and knew too much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Osama_bin_Laden_video I also believe the possibility of an inside job in the US because the of who was in the White House, Prez and VP weren't exactly honest people and looking back on 9/11, it lead the US to where it is today, two ME leaders dead and more power in the ME. just something to think about. It's very naive to think that anyone at that level would want to initiate a plan that would: 1) Attack their own citizens and destroy their own symbols of power 2) By executing an extremely risky and expensive plan 3) Involving thousands of those same citizens and requiring complete secrecy 4) With an uncertain outcome, with no great benefits to anyone Is the US happy to where their plan led - ie. the ME today ? Did they really plan 15 years ahead ? I felt I had to respond to your point here but this is in fact thread drift. If you have a response to my points start a new thread or add to a relevant one such as http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/7526-organized-conspiracy-to-make-911-look-like-inside-job/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Still ? Not sure what you mean, as I'm just asking you about your thoughts on this and I don't think we've had this conversation before. There are dictators that we're supporting today though, right ? I think the next step of the discussion might be to identify sources of information that highlight our worst tendencies to support such people in the guise of regional stability, or some national interest. This discussion, more of a shouting match, has been going on for at least 20 years. I don't know how but you apparently missed it. There are thousands of pages of posts on the subject in this forum alone. Edited October 24, 2015 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 This comment is very telling, about who we are as a nation....better yet who you are as a person....Afghanistan was one of the few conflicts that was not about oil, or big corporations....it was about helping out a nation that had endured 30 plus years of conflict, that had left them in despair, with no hope of a future, under a regime that was brutal..... It was a chance for us as a nation to give an out reached hand, and help them , give them some hope for the future..... Actually oil companies wanted to put a pipeline through the nation. And Afghanistan quickly became the world leader in exporting opiates for pharmaceutical and recreational purposes. The long conflict you speak has been chock full of intervention from the Soviets (Russians) and the US which has really solved nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Still ? Not sure what you mean, as I'm just asking you about your thoughts on this and I don't think we've had this conversation before. There are dictators that we're supporting today though, right ? I think the next step of the discussion might be to identify sources of information that highlight our worst tendencies to support such people in the guise of regional stability, or some national interest. Saudi Arabia Qatar UAE Start there. Edited October 24, 2015 by GostHacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 There are thousands of pages of posts on the subject in this forum alone. You and Army Guy were making some good points, even if you were circling each other a bit. I'm just trying to get the discussion to specifics. I see strongly held values on both sides of the discussion, which is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Saudi Arabia Qatar UAE Good list. They are stable and wealthy - are there examples that are more likely to turn into Syria-like situations too ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Good list. They are stable and wealthy - are there examples that are more likely to turn into Syria-like situations too ? You wanted examples of western supported dicatorships. Them being wealthy and 'stable' is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 You wanted examples of western supported dicatorships. Them being wealthy and 'stable' is irrelevant. Yes. Did it seem to you that I was arguing with you ? Read my post again. The first two words say 'Good List'. I'm learning from you in this discussion. Do you have other examples as well ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 You and Army Guy were making some good points, even if you were circling each other a bit. I'm just trying to get the discussion to specifics. I see strongly held values on both sides of the discussion, which is a good thing. What sort of specifics? As I see it, the immediate things we should be doing is withdraw all our armed forces from the ME region and postpone the shipment of armoured vehicles Saudi Arabia ordered from us until a Royal Commission into the root causes of the GWOT publishes it's findings. Then we should have a national discussion on where to go from there and why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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