Bonam Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 All I said was I was surprised, after your comments on another post, about your safety on a military base. And yet your concerns do not transfer to your daughters. Parents are usually concerned for their kids in all kinds of situations, and yet by the time those children are adults, they are no longer under their parents control and can make their own choices in life. There's no "not allowing" your adult child doing something that they want to do. Seems pretty simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) I just think it's a trivial example to hold up. It makes it seem like every small accomplishment is worthy of huge praise, just because it involves a minority. ... Women are the majority of the population. How are they a minority? It's a significant event, I don't know how I can explain that further. It *signifies*, marks, indicates, signals, reflects changes that continue in our society. Nobody celebrates a lady cop anymore, because that's commonplace. Well I want it to be commonplace and not make a big deal over the gender/sex of the pilot. You guys are making a big deal over it. In most cases, when compared to men, a women of equal age and educational background etc, I found, will still be far more attentive and have less of an ego to bruise. Now if someone were to swap men and women in your sentence and say it, they would get accused of being a misogynist and it would not be socially acceptable. But apparently it is completely socially acceptable to make claims about women being intrinsically better at something than men. It's 'empowering' I guess. Hurray for double standards! Edited May 9, 2015 by -1=e^ipi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 It's odd to me that people protest the celebration of yet another milestone in gender equality. This event marks an important advance in freedom for people, why wouldn't we toast such a thing ? Because gender/sex shouldn't matter. The skill/ability of the individual should. Being a top pilot is an accomplishment regardless of if you are male, female or intersex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Because gender/sex shouldn't matter. The skill/ability of the individual should. Being a top pilot is an accomplishment regardless of if you are male, female or intersex. My thinking exactly. Thank you for articulating it so well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) Because gender/sex shouldn't matter. The skill/ability of the individual should. Being a top pilot is an accomplishment regardless of if you are male, female or intersex. It shouldn't but in but in reality it still does seem to matter. As you say, women make up a majority of the population but only a small minority of fighter pilots or pilots in general. This is steadily changing but still has along way to go. Edited May 9, 2015 by Wilber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 It shouldn't but in but in reality it still does seem to matter. As you say, women make up a majority of the population but only a small minority of fighter pilots or pilots in general. This is steadily changing but still has along way to go. And men make up a small minority of nurses, psychologists, elementary school teachers, university students, and people that manage to live past the age of 70. But no one really cares to address these issues. Why do you think that is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Now if someone were to swap men and women in your sentence and say it, they would get accused of being a misogynist and it would not be socially acceptable. But apparently it is completely socially acceptable to make claims about women being intrinsically better at something than men. It's 'empowering' I guess. Hurray for double standards! How is it a double standard? I clearly separated both sexes with my personal observation, inversely, if I was speaking to a topic that I felt men excelled at contrasted with women, I'd say so........My opinions, clearly qualified, are succinct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 And men make up a small minority of nurses, psychologists, elementary school teachers, university students, and people that manage to live past the age of 70. But no one really cares to address these issues. Why do you think that is? And when was the last time men were not allowed to become nurses, or anything else they wanted to do. The first time women were allowed to participate in all roles in the CAF was 1989. There are no issues to address within your list. There is within this thread and thats probably why it exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 And when was the last time men were not allowed to become nurses, or anything else they wanted to do. The first time women were allowed to participate in all roles in the CAF was 1989. There are no issues to address within your list. There is within this thread and thats probably why it exists. That's incorrect, women were unable to earn their dolphins until 2000 and even then, the amount of women in subs today could be counted on one hand with change left over.........and though allowed to qualify for sea going trades (other than the AORs and auxiliaries) in 1989, women didn't put to sea until the 280s were Trumped and the Halifax and Kingstons entered service in the early to mid 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 That's incorrect, women were unable to earn their dolphins until 2000 and even then, the amount of women in subs today could be counted on one hand with change left over.........and though allowed to qualify for sea going trades (other than the AORs and auxiliaries) in 1989, women didn't put to sea until the 280s were Trumped and the Halifax and Kingstons entered service in the early to mid 90s. So I take it then you are on board at least with the idea that there is significance to this current event which goes toward the continuation of the removal of those gender barriers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 So I take it then you are on board at least with the idea that there is significance to this current event which goes toward the continuation of the removal of those gender barriers. I already stated my support/well wishes in my first post in this thread.......I've zero qualms with women entering any of the trades within the military. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) And men make up a small minority of nurses, psychologists, elementary school teachers, university students, and people that manage to live past the age of 70. But no one really cares to address these issues. Why do you think that is? Because only when conditions for a certain group are really bad does any real attempt come at changing things. Once "advocacy groups: arise, they are self-perpetuating, even when the conditions are no longer anywhere as severe as what would have been needed to cause their creation. Consider unions.... highly necessary back in the day and hugely beneficial to society as a whole. Today? Not so much. And yet they linger. Consider feminism... it arose in a time when women faced very real discrimination in many aspects of their lives, and it helped address most of that. Today? If women had simply always throughout history been treated the way they are in Canada in 2015, no feminist movement would have ever happened, cause things are close enough that no one woulda bothered. Once groups and causes and the identities associated with them come to be, they linger, long past their usefulness. When it comes to men, what disadvantages they may face are small enough that they don't really motivate anyone to get off their ass and do anything about it. If things get bad enough eventually someone (or rather a critical mass of people) will, and then some "men's empowerment" movement or something will also linger far past its usefulness into the future. It's how these things work. You need a strong imbalance to trigger a reaction, but once that reaction is triggered, it lingers forever, even after the imbalance that gave it rise is addressed. Edited May 9, 2015 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 I already stated my support/well wishes in my first post in this thread.......I've zero qualms with women entering any of the trades within the military. One of my first instructors those many years ago was female and she was as smooth a pilot as I have ever known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 And when was the last time men were not allowed to become nurses, or anything else they wanted to do. Well I have a male friend who was recently interested in going to nursing and was made very uncomfortable and singled out for being a male and as a result was completely discouraged from entering the field. The first time women were allowed to participate in all roles in the CAF was 1989. It's 2015! That was 26 years ago. You realize that most millennials were not even born yet, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 When it comes to men, what disadvantages they may face are small enough that they don't really motivate anyone to get off their ass and do anything about it. I wouldn't be so sure about that. Society is highly inhomogeneous and there are certain groups of men that face serious challenges. Support for men's rights issues are stronger than ever (although that isn't saying much). I certainty don't feel it is small enough to do nothing about. If things get bad enough eventually someone (or rather a critical mass of people) will, and then some "men's empowerment" movement or something will also linger far past its usefulness into the future. I don't think this is necessarily how it has to be. If you look at the groups that support men's rights issues, the ones gaining momentum are the non-traditionalist gender egalitarianism groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Well I have a male friend who was recently interested in going to nursing and was made very uncomfortable and singled out for being a male and as a result was completely discouraged from entering the field. It's 2015! That was 26 years ago. You realize that most millennials were not even born yet, right? And who was your male fried discouraged by I wonder. Maybe he has redneck friends. I think you missed the point about the military. Its noteworthy that women are taking advantage of the removal of old barriers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 So, are we supposed to go through this every time a woman flies a new aircraft? If we do, then that's more chauvanistic than us who don't seem to care one way or another. Besides, it's not so much an accomplishment as it is an honour bestowed upon her...likely from a man. Let's see. We have people on the thread dismissing an event which is a natural landmark in human progress, which you didn't see. Now you're asking if there's some requirement to celebrate every little achievement ? Why would you assume you're 'supposed' to celebrate small things when you didn't even see the need to celebrate the obvious thing ? Such a strange response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Well I want it to be commonplace and not make a big deal over the gender/sex of the pilot. You guys are making a big deal over it. Why do you want it to be commonplace ? Because you believe that women should have equal rights and access to employment ? Who are "you guys" ? Are you creating some kind of group division here ? If you want it to be commonplace, doesn't it make sense to celebrate the first time it happens ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Once groups and causes and the identities associated with them come to be, they linger, long past their usefulness. ... It's how these things work. You need a strong imbalance to trigger a reaction, but once that reaction is triggered, it lingers forever, even after the imbalance that gave it rise is addressed. I mostly agree with you, but when an assertion like this finds agreement with me I usually start looking for the exceptions. There are certainly advocates and advocacies that fade from usefulness, or perhaps move on to work on associated causes. I'll bet there was an Irish Defamation League once. Here's another one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Women_Voters The famous entity known as The League of Women Voters was founded before Women had the right to vote in America. In 1973, they started admitting men to The League. That may have marked the moment when the right to vote was no longer in question, and giving them the sign that their mandate could change towards advocacy, enhancing civic participation or somesuch. Democratic power depends on attitudes, and as such may allow for advocacy groups to change tactics, redefining their roles as they succeed. Economic power, though, exists within a constant conflict that will always need advocates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal 9000 Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Let's see. We have people on the thread dismissing an event which is a natural landmark in human progress, which you didn't see. Now you're asking if there's some requirement to celebrate every little achievement ? Why would you assume you're 'supposed' to celebrate small things when you didn't even see the need to celebrate the obvious thing ? Such a strange response. I have high regard for anyone who flies a fighter jet. The fact that she's a female is not and won't ever be an issue for me. She's not blind, one armed or disabled in any way, she's not a bonobo...she's a woman - no biggie. A woman was chosen to fly this particular aircraft - end of. But that's wrong...isn't it? By not making a big deal of a woman flying a fighter jet, we're somehow in the wrong? Isn't this the response women should want? No! Ok, what responses are acceptable? 1) Women shouldn't be allowed to fly fighter jets...No! 2) Finally, a woman who can compete with a man...No! 3) No biggie, women can/should fly fighter jets...No! 4) Isn't it wonderful that a women is succeeding in the tyrannical mans world...Bingo! There is a type of reverse psychology going on here; by making such a huge deal out this, you people and especially the feminist group are very comfrortable in showing woman in a lesser role - still victims of a mans world. WCR is announcing some sort of accomplishment, but the underlying tone is "women are still victims". Once an occurrence becomes a "no big deal" event, victim status is no longer needed - and by extension feminism. It's actually kinda twisted how you people are using this pilot for your own agendas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 There is a type of reverse psychology going on here; by making such a huge deal out this, you people and especially the feminist group are very comfrortable in showing woman in a lesser role - still victims of a mans world. WCR is announcing some sort of accomplishment, but the underlying tone is "women are still victims". Once an occurrence becomes a "no big deal" event, victim status is no longer needed - and by extension feminism. It's actually kinda twisted how you people are using this pilot for your own agendas. "you people" ? Why do you need to put me in some kind of group ? It seems pretty commonplace to celebrate 'firsts', so why don't you put yourself in some group ? I don't see why it's twisted to mark firsts in this way. It actually is pretty common to do that. Maybe if you recognize that fact, you can start to see why your response might seem odd to a mainstream person, like perhaps you're the one with an 'agenda'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 And who was your male fried discouraged by I wonder. Maybe he has redneck friends. Lol, what? Being made uncomfortable for being male while considering nursing = has redneck friends! On Guard for Thee logic! Why do you want it to be commonplace ? Because I am a gender egalitarian and I want to see the complete destruction of gender roles. Who are "you guys" ? You and others that are making a big deal over the sex/gender of the individual even though it shouldn't matter. Are you creating some kind of group division here ? Says the person dividing people the basis of sex as demonstrated in this thread... If you want it to be commonplace, doesn't it make sense to celebrate the first time it happens ? No, it makes more sense to treat everyone equally. I don't see you celebrating the existence of bronies for example. Why is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 And men make up a small minority of nurses, psychologists, elementary school teachers, university students, and people that manage to live past the age of 70. But no one really cares to address these issues. Why do you think that is? Certainly we are different and to some degree have characteristics that make us more suitable for some occupations but most of what you refer to is because of stereotypes established over centuries of a completely male dominated society. Not much more than a hundred years ago, wives were still considered property of their husbands under the law. A female majority in universities is a quite recent thing. The difference in life expectancy is an indicator of how women are progressing when it comes to occupations. As more women take up jobs that were previously male dominated, the gap in life expectancy is narrowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Because I am a gender egalitarian and I want to see the complete destruction of gender roles. Give me some other examples of how you're an egalitarian ? For racial equality, or the poor perhaps ? You and others that are making a big deal over the sex/gender of the individual even though it shouldn't matter. Yes, that would be ... the general population. This is being reported in the news, not by advocacy groups. Says the person dividing people the basis of sex as demonstrated in this thread... Well, yes the division between men and women isn't really in question - they are different genders. But why are you trying to make a "group" out of people are celebrating a remarkable milestone ? It's being reported in the news, this is a normal thing to celebrate ? No, it makes more sense to treat everyone equally. I don't see you celebrating the existence of bronies for example. Why is that? What is a bronie ? Do we really need to debate silly things like this just because mainstream news is acknowledging a milestone just as they would normally do ? If you believe in equality, why wouldn't you celebrate a milestone for equality ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 When did becoming a bronie become an accomplishment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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