Men's Rights

[Michael Hardner]

I am a bit worried that society is becoming way to eager to describe anything with men having close friendships with other men as homo-erotic or a mask for closet homosexuality.

I don't think you should worry about that. The gradual acceptance of homosexuality shouldn't change perceptions of straight behavior. You're free to move about society as you were...

[BC_chick]

Are you implying that women cannot do trades?

Talk about sexist...

Anyway, to add to the list:

- Traditionally, men are expected to pay for dates for some reason.

- Traditionally, it is up to the male to make a marriage proposal.

- In scenarios of natural disasters or wars, there is a sexist concept of 'women and children first' (see the Titanic movie for example).

- It is more socially acceptable to be a stay-at-home mother than a stay-at-home father.

Thank goodness for women's rights for trying to reverse these societal perceptions. Too bad the women who do not adhere to traditional gender roles are often referred to as angry lesbians.

Talk about a no-win situation.

[cybercoma]

Are you implying that women cannot do trades?

Talk about sexist...

Really?

[cybercoma]

It's something I thought of when I sent my quarterly instalment to the CRA. Everyone should have the same opportunities. They should be treated equally. Not everyone will make it to the same place, and that's just reality.

We wouldn't want you to over-exert yourself trying to understand why everyone doesn't make it to the same place or to even question the dogma that there IS equal opportunity to begin with.

[Boges]

I went on a date and the girl picked up the bill. I feel I'm doing my part for feminism by letting her.

[Argus]

I am a bit worried that society is becoming way to eager to describe anything with men having close friendships with other men as homo-erotic or a mask for closet homosexuality

I have not noticed that. If anything, this is a woman's issue. There was a time when women could hug and kiss, as they've been doing forever, without fear of a bunch of guys hooting and telling them to go at it. It's womens relationships, particularly young ones, which have become sexualized in the minds of the popular media.

[Argus]

Put yourself in the place of that guy who's with this girl who's freely downing shots. Should he just sit back and keep pouring her more drinks, or go along with her desire to get drunk?

Are you suggesting he is her supervisor in some way? Is it up to him to allow her or not allow her to get drunk on a date? What if he's

downing shots at the same time?

And after a half hour or so, if she says:"let's f***" or f*** me, should he go along with it?

Again, you're leaving aside that he is likely to be as drunk or drunker than she is. Thus his decision making abilities are greatly

impaired.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Argus

[guyser]

I went on a date and the girl picked up the bill. I feel I'm doing my part for feminism by letting her.

...and she never asked you out again ...right ?

[Boges]

...and she never asked you out again ...right ?

No, the second encounter (or date) had already been established before the bill was asked for. I didn't even get a shot to grab the bill, and I tried. I think it was a success.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Boges

[Moonlight Graham]

I think one main reason why there's more females graduating university than males is that men have a lesser attention span to sit still. University mostly involves either sitting in a class listening to a professor talk for 3 hours, or sitting in your room or a library reading for hours on end, or sitting in front of a computer researching and writing essays & other assignments for many hours. It's not easy.

[-1=e^ipi]

I think one main reason why there's more females graduating university than males is that men have a lesser attention span to sit still.

Now if someone where to say, "a reason why males have higher incomes is because their brains are on average larger and males have on average 3 IQ points more than females" or "females earnings are affected by hormonal mood swings", that person would be labelled as a misogynist by society and the opinion would be dismissed. But claiming that males have lower grades, university attendance, life expectancy, etc. is due to males not being able to stay still and their hormones make them aggressive and violent or whatever is perfectly acceptable.

So let me get this straight, according to mainstream feminists:

If there is a gender gap that disadvantages females, it is discrimination.

If there is a gender gap that disadvantages males, it is biology.

Seems inconsistent to me.

[Bonam]

Are you sure there's an "issue"?

Do you think that men are being denied the opportunity to attend university, or is it more likely that the lower percentage of men at university is because a larger percentage of men pursue lucrative non-university career paths like skilled trades?

Surely that's a result of women making their own choices, not anyone denying them an opportunity in those fields. An effort has been made to attract women into these fields, and the biggest obstacle seems to be women themselves. I've written about this before...

Intrinsic differences are the "only" plausible explanation? What about social factors?

My dad's an engineer, and I also dated an engineer for over 6 years. They have both told me that they'd worked with capable female engineers, and that most of the female engineers they worked with were immigrants, from Asia and eastern Europe. They met more foreign-born women than Canadian-born women in their line of work. It seems a stretch to me to think that Canadian women are intrinsically less capable of dealing with math and science than their foreign-raised counterparts.

-k

...

As with the shortage of women in STEM careers, or the ratio of male:female students at university ...isn't this really just a result of people choosing their own way?

To me, this statistic is the flip side of the pay gap statistic. Women are more likely to choose safer careers that also happen to pay less. On a semi-related note...

Aren't a majority of crimes that are classified as murders actually what we might call "occupationally related"? Being in BC, I often hear on the news about the latest homicides from the Lower Mainland, and most of them have a connection to drug trafficking. I would think that men could greatly reduce their chances of becoming a homicide statistic by choosing a different line of work.

I think there are two main factors in this. One is that men are simply better at committing suicide. A woman is likely to swallow a bunch of pills, puke her guts out and pass out, and get medical and psychiatric help. A man is more likely to do something that's actually fatal. I learned during my firearms course that the large majority of gun deaths in Canada aren't homicide, and they aren't accidents, they are suicides. Almost exclusively by men.

The other issue, which you and Michael have touched on, is that men are expected to "tough it out"... which tends to mean they're less likely to seek psychological help than women. Men are less likely to talk to a friend or a doctor if they're depressed, because admitting they're depressed feels like an admission that they're weak.

Is there anything that could be done to change that?

-k

Those are all good points. Similarly good points can be (and often have been) presented regarding the various statistics that people bring out to demonstrate that sexism against women remains a significant issue in Western societies. Of course, in that case, those arguments are routinely ignored or dismissed out of hand by women's rights activists.

The reality is whether you are a man or a woman, you will likely face some disadvantages due to your gender, and you will likely enjoy some advantages due to your gender. But, in places like Canada and most other Western countries, both the advantages and disadvantages are considerably smaller than the variations in interests, random opportunities, inclinations, abilities, and of course economic backgrounds of different individuals. Therefore, people should just go out and live their lives.

[dre]

I think one main reason why there's more females graduating university than males is that men have a lesser attention span to sit still. University mostly involves either sitting in a class listening to a professor talk for 3 hours, or sitting in your room or a library reading for hours on end, or sitting in front of a computer researching and writing essays & other assignments for many hours. It's not easy.

I think another reason is that nowdays you can make as much in a good trade as you can with most university degrees, and its easier for men to get into trades. I know quite a few men making 6 figures + as plumbers, boiler makers, pipefitters, etc, while people with degrees in engineering or accounting or comsci are often making quite a bit less and some of them owe a years wages in studient loans to boot.

Edited April 7, 2015 by dre

[Smallc]

I think another reason is that nowdays you can make as much in a good trade as you can with most university degrees, and its easier for men to get into trades.

My cousin is a hairdresser and clears $3K every two weeks. It's not only true of men.

[overthere]

I think another reason is that nowdays you can make as much in a good trade as you can with most university degrees, and its easier for men to get into trades. I know quite a few men making 6 figures + as plumbers, boiler makers, pipefitters, etc, while people with degrees in engineering or accounting or comsci are often making quite a bit less and some of them owe a years wages in studient loans to boot.

The tradesmen earning six figures+ do the following(and there are loads of them in my life):

-often work in camps

-spend at least 7 months a year away from their families, away for long stretches without a break

- often work outside in all seasons and/or in dangerous places where a few get killed and more get injured every year

-served four year apprenticeships during which their earning power and job mobility is severely reduced

- have work expectations based on maintenance shutdowns and capital work that is far from certain

- basically have a single employer in the industry, their own union hall dispatcher.

If they can find a job locally in their trade in their home city or town, which is not likely, they will earn less than 50% of what they get in camp work because there is no overtime and their living expenses are not subsidized.

A years wages owed on student loans? So what? Isn't your lifetime earning power greatly enhanced by that degree? If not, why bother going at all? is nothing comapred

[cybercoma]

My cousin is a hairdresser and clears $3K every two weeks. It's not only true of men.

So is your cousin the average? Or do you think that maybe clearing $6000 a month or $72000 per year (making gross over $100k) is perhaps at the high end of what hairdressers make?

[WIP]

This is sexist. Women can play an active role in a sexual relationship and men can play a passive role.

Not completely passive! My wife has always been sexually aggressive( which scored big points in her favour 30 years ago), and....I can't go into details obviously, but once you go beyond oral sex to penetration, the guy either can geit it up/or he can't!

[WIP]

Well, your first sentence would apply to both sexes equally. I would imagine. The point being that the law expects a drunk to be responsible for their actions in some cases, so why not all?

If a women (or a man) is not responsible enough to consent to sex after drinking, then the man (or the woman) with whom they are having sex has no responsibility for the act either, if they are also drunk. If one is drunk and not the other, then a case might be made for some coercion there, but the sex of the one who is drunk would be irrelevant in my opinion.

You know fully well that, on average, men have a big physical advantage over women, so use of force or threat of force puts many...the majority of women at risk when they are alone with a man who is a sexual predator. Trying to pretend it's a level playingfield between men and women is as ludicrous as conservative economic arguments of a level playing field between the rich and everyone else!

[WIP]

If you have access to the internet, then you have the ability to learn knowledge that can get you a STEM career if you are willing to put in the effort. Don't make up excuses if you are too lazy to perform tasks that involve math or science.

The STEM careers are for an educated elite in any society. Trying to pretend that we're all going to be doctors, engineers or lawyers, is typical libertarian BS!

* and, some of us avoided that track and chose to work with our hands back in the days when skilled trades were still paying decent money! Those were the days before globalization of course, and the driving of wages down to lowest common denominator; but many of us went that route because we like doing jobs where we're not part of some bullshit committee or "team." Our work is mostly done independently and evaluated based on our skills and abilities to find out and solve problems those 'engineers' leave in the blueprints!

The collapse of manufacturing in North America has not only impacted the trades, it's also having an effect on those engineers in that STEM system. Guess they'll have to retrain and become lawyers or investment brokers now!

Edited April 7, 2015 by WIP

[WIP]

No, they are trying to do things like create awareness of the issue, encourage more competition in classrooms, and increase male role models available to boys.

In other words, Hoffs-Sommers is part of the AEI team that has the job of promoting the privatization of public education today! Classrooms don't need competition....i.e. constant testing. They need a liberal arts education that teaches students about more than the basic math and english skills. Children need to learn music, art, and the social studies subjects to learn about the world around them.

I was not exactly a public education fan until we had to move into a very mixed, cosmopolitan area with many first generation immigrants. My youngest boy was still in grade school, and it was the first time in his life that he was in a school that wasn't virtually all-white! That makes a big difference in how children grow to view others who are different from them. It's a subject that is taught by direct contact, and would be upended if we go the privatization route that England and the U.S. is doing now. And, then there's all the other crap that's wrong with sending education tax dollars to corporations to feed off of.....but that's a subject for another time probably!

[WIP]

The issue of consent for and during sex becomes blurred in same sex relationships. The current assumption that the male in a relationship has the burden of decision making has no application in same sex sexual assault. For that reason I do not feel that the current law is correct and fair.

Bisexual, transgendered, lesbian and gay people experience violence within their intimate relationships at about the same rates as heterosexuals;

http://www.wcsap.org/lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender-queer-community

Yes, and doesn't that mean that different standards have to be applied in same-sex relationships. The main focus is on the male/female relationships that apply to 90% of us.

[WIP]

Thank goodness for women's rights for trying to reverse these societal perceptions. Too bad the women who do not adhere to traditional gender roles are often referred to as angry lesbians.

Talk about a no-win situation.

I'm not sure if it the overemphasis on competition and aggression in right wing political and economic thinking, that makes the right hostile towards women, but it seems that they consider women petitioning for their own interests on the same level as they see environmentalists as a threat to their economic ideals!

[WIP]

Are you suggesting he is her supervisor in some way? Is it up to him to allow her or not allow her to get drunk on a date? What if he's

downing shots at the same time?

Likely in most cases, it's the woman who has to play the role of 'supervisor' on a date, since.....just based on anecdotal evidence from parties - it's the wives or girlfriends having to drive their drunk husbands or boyfriends home after a party.

But, if we're talking about a first time dating situation where they've met in a bar or are otherwise meeting for the first time, the old time standard for a lot of guys was to get her drunk, and then....holy hell was there a lot of screaming and crying when that ruling denying consent-if-intoxicated came down. That ruined the whole game.

So, if you want to call it being a supervisor, go ahead! If he doesn't have bad intentions, wouldn't he be trying to end this date as quickly as possible?

[-1=e^ipi]

* and, some of us avoided that track and chose to work with our hands back in the days when skilled trades were still paying decent money! Those were the days before globalization of course

So what are people going to do once robots start taking over menial jobs? For example, driverless cars are going to come out in a decade, which will make truckers, bus drivers, etc. obsolete.

There is a gradual technology shift which is favoring STEM fields. Don't blame globalization for your laziness and poor life choices.

[-1=e^ipi]

Classrooms don't need competition....i.e. constant testing.

Competition != constant testing. For example, having kids play a game of soccer involves competition.

They need a liberal arts education that teaches students about more than the basic math and english skills.

Kids could use more than just basic math and english skills. They could benefit from calculus, linear algebra, statistics, physics, biology, chemistry, geography, computer programming, philosophy of science, economics, etc.

Children need to learn music, art, and the social studies subjects to learn about the world around them.

Don't forget social justice. We need to brainwash kids into the Orwellian 'progressive' belief system of social justice. Don't forget the discovery math. We can't have people's feeling's hurt because they are too lazy to put the effort into to learn math. Instead they need to discover it! *sarcasm*

My youngest boy was still in grade school, and it was the first time in his life that he was in a school that wasn't virtually all-white!

Are you implying that this is a new phenomenon? I've been to schools that weren't virtually all-white since I've been going to school. Not that the racial makeup of a school matters to me.

Edit: this is getting off topic.

Edited April 7, 2015 by -1=e^ipi