Zionism is Cancer

[drummindiver]

It is time to review our foreign policy and look to Iran as our next ally in the Middle East.

Yup. Smartest thing I've heard all day.

"Iran’s constitution requires that laws and regulations be based on Islamic criteria, which mandate inferior status for three non-Muslim faiths, while withholding all rights and protections from all other faiths".

"Meanwhile, Iran continues to execute its citizens in record-breaking numbers. It also continues to violently torture prisoners by burning them and even amputating their limbs, according to human rights activists monitoring the situation.

Iran also has sentenced to death a person who it claims “insulted the prophet” in a Facebook posting".

[Rue]

The foreign policy of Canada and is support of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state since 1949 is a fact Eyeball.

Foreign policy in Canada has also supported a Palestinian state. Canada has never supported Palestinian terrorism or Muslim terrorism.

You are now mixing up the fact that Harper has been very direct in repudiating terrorism to mean Canada is no longer balanced in its foreign policy.

That is illogical.

One can be against terrorism and not be anti Palestinian.

Canada never claimed to be neutral. It never claimed it was neutral on the concept if whether Israel has the right to be Jewish. The fact it also believes Palestinians should have a state does not make it neutral-it makes its foreign policy balanced. I think you need to go back and examine what you think neutrality means. Neutrality under international law is the absence of positions one way or the other.

There have been no true non aligned or neutral countries. The closest we had to that was Switzerland and Finland. Swizterland however proved it wasn't truly neutral but because it operated as a bank it would take in the money from anywhere and since it made a living doing just that it avoided enunciating foreign policy to avoid alienating potential tyrants from depositing their money. In fact it has entered into agreements with countries when it did not effect its banking transactions. Finland has tried to remain neutral like Sweden given its proximity to Russia but the Finish showed their sympathy to the Nazis during WW2 just like the Swedes did. Today they are officially neutral but their distrust and strained relations with Putin are a fact.Same can be said with Sweden,

Neutrality is a defective notion. At any given time a nation will do what is in its best interests and that means entering into agreements with nations and therefore creating potential conflicts of interest with other nations. What we really are talking about is the degree of neutral appearance.

It is my opinion that the anti Israelis on this board take on an isolationist approach that believes if they turn their back on bad bad Israel nothing bad will happen to Canada and bad things only happen to Americans or Israelis because they are Zionist dupes and without Zionists the whole world would be just peachy swell.

That to me is a very common human behaviour-when someone is afraid of a bully if they ally with that bully they will be just fine. That bully or terrorism isn't going away because Canada turns its back on Israel. That bully is called fundamentalist Islam and it grows each day and threatens directly the very values of Western democracy. Like Hitler or Stalin its not going away with wishful thinking or putting one's head in a hole or up their ass.

[PrimeNumber]

The foreign policy of Canada and is support of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state since 1949 is a fact Eyeball.

Foreign policy in Canada has also supported a Palestinian state. Canada has never supported Palestinian terrorism or Muslim terrorism.

Please provide one shred of evidence that proves Harper supports a Palestinian State as well as an Israeli State

[GostHacked]

One can be against terrorism and not be anti Palestinian.

One can be critical of Israel and not be an anti-semite.

[eyeball]

The foreign policy of Canada and is support of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state since 1949 is a fact Eyeball.

Where did I ever say otherwise Rue?

[eyeball]

The "crazy bastards in Ottawa" -either red, blue or orange-have not been neutral since day one. That's why they voted as they did.

If reading comprehension is your friend, you must be very lonely.

Are you suggesting the crazy bastards outright voted against a Palestinian state? How did they word the motion to do so? Surely it's written down and exist in the public record somewhere. Maybe you know where it is.

[drummindiver]

Are you suggesting the crazy bastards outright voted against a Palestinian state? How did they word the motion to do so? Surely it's written down and exist in the public record somewhere. Maybe you know where it is.

Did they vote against a Palestinian state? They voted for an Israeli state. Canada was instrumental in the creation of Israel. Public record.

Edited January 6, 2015 by drummindiver

[eyeball]

you're an anti-semite who wants all Jews trucked back to Germany.

You're an ignorant slandering liar and that's not just a fact it's a matter of public record.

You also really suck at derailing threads.

[eyeball]

Canada was instrumental in the creation of Israel. Public record. You should be proud of this fact.

Never said it didn't, never said I was ashamed.

Care to show me where I said otherwise? Oh that's right you can't because you're just a lousy no account liar. A lousy one too.

Did I say lousy?

Edited January 5, 2015 by eyeball

[Michael Hardner]

Stop the personal attacks. Report it and move on.

[drummindiver]

Are you suggesting the crazy bastards outright voted against a Palestinian state? How did they word the motion to do so? Surely it's written down and exist in the public record somewhere. Maybe you know where it is.

Um, yes you did.

[eyeball]

I did what?

[Big Guy]

A reply to drummindiver - Thank you for your comment on my opinion of Iran and its importance as a solution in the Middle East. While I consider all opinions, I do tend to take more seriously the ones coning from people knowledgeable about world affairs and easily identifiable. You may be interested in number 2 in the following;

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2015/01/03/seven_international_headlines_youll_read_in_2015_burman.html

I would also warn you that I respond only to those posters who are civil in their language and dialogue with me.

[guyser]

One can be critical of Israel and not be an anti-semite.

Doesnt appear to be true around here.

One may rue the day they try to be critical.

[Rue]

Doesnt appear to be true around here.

One may rue the day they try to be critical.

Gusyer the tactic of trying to suggest people are accused of anti semitism on this board simply because they criticize Israeli state policies has been used many a time. When certain people have been accused of it, its been in specific circumstances and context where they have failed to differentiate between Israeli state policies, and Jews as a people or the religion of Judaism.

Now for example if you argue its cancerous for a Jew to believe he or she has the right to express themselves through a state collective identity I will challenge you. If in that comment you then start making references that create one standard for Jews, another for non Jews in regards to the right to express themselves through a state I would probably call that disriminatory against Jews yes. When does it become hateful or anti-semitic?

Well let me ask you this and answer it please with fairness. How do you refer to a Jew who believes in statehood as one who holds a cancerous belief that needs to be wiped out and not be hateful against that Jew for experssing his state collective identity?

How is it possible to support a Muslim state for Palestinians while in the same breath saying Jews can not have a Jewish state?

That double standard, that discriminatory standard that supports Muslim states but says not one Jewish state means what?

If it does not discriminate against Jews what does it do?

Have I ever come on this board and said Muslims should have not a Sharia law state at all anywhere? Have you?

[GostHacked]

Gusyer the tactic of trying to suggest people are accused of anti semitism on this board simply because they criticize Israeli state policies has been used many a time.

How many times have you accused me of being an anti-semite?

When certain people have been accused of it, its been in specific circumstances and context where they have failed to differentiate between Israeli state policies, and Jews as a people or the religion of Judaism.

HAHAHAH , you even called me an anti-semite for knowing there is a difference between a Zionits, a Jew and an Israeli.

But whatever.

[jbg]

HAHAHAH , you even called me an anti-semite for knowing there is a difference between a Zionits, a Jew and an Israeli.

In theory you're right. In practice scratch an anti-Zionist and you find a disliker of Jews. Most people who call themselves "anti-Zionists" place a lower priority on the Jews having the right to a state of their own than any other peoples. Some of those other peoples are barely distinguishable from similar groups of people.

[Rue]

How many times have you accused me of being an anti-semite?

HAHAHAH , you even called me an anti-semite for knowing there is a difference between a Zionits, a Jew and an Israeli.

But whatever.

The times I accused you of being an anti-semite were in specific reference to words you used that did not distinguish between Jews and Israelis.

If you produce the criticisms by me that is made clear.

More to the point, if you have a personal issue with me take it off line and don't try hijack this thread to get into a personal arguement with me to shut the thread down. I won't take the bait.

I will like JBG though repeat again that the context in which people criticize Zionism may or may not be anti-semitic. It depends on the choice of words, their context and whether they create standards for Jews different than non Jews, and/or whether the criticisms express hatred or negative stereotypes about all Jews.

Quite frankly the anti Israelis on this board to me have shown they have no clue what Zionism is let alone Judaism, the concept of how a Jew is defined, how a person who practices Judaism is defined and who an Israeli is.

In the anti Israel, anti Zionist and anti Jewish comments I have read I see confusion and a mixing of them all up, improperly and showing an inability to understand their basic definitions let alone tdistinguishing characteristics, so when you respond with a laugh that doesn't surprise me.

I have tried as best I can to explain when comments that are alleged to criticize Israeli state policies go further and incite hatred and resentment towards all Jews and when that happens how the comments go from anti Israeli to anti semite.

In regards to criticism of Zionism on this board, for me when I read someone saying its a cancerous belief to believe that as a Jew they have a right to express that Jewishness in a state collective identity and that concept needs to be wiped out like a cancer, I take it to be a physical threat against me as a person, and me as a Jewish person having the basic right to express my identity.

So I have tried to explained why and I believe most people get it and that the blurring of the line between Jew, Zionist, Israeli is sometimes intentional and sometimes unintentional but either way has to be challenged who ever does it.

The need to try focus this back to you is not the issue.

I will give the most common example of how ignorance of Zionism Judaism the religion are incorrectly mixed by anti Israelis on this and other political boards.

We read it when someone says, Zionists are "racist" because they believe God told them they were chosen and therefore are better than anyone else. Then false quotes from the Talmud are provided suggesting Jews think we are superior to non Jews and can like to them, and so on.

The concept of "chosen" in Judaism is constantly misinterpreted to mean we are favoured by God when it means nothing of the sort. It simply refers to the concept of a promise or convenant entered into with God that if Jews remain as a collective of people when they pray to God, God will not forget the Jews.

It was a concept created to stress unity for Jews at a time when they were surrounded by hostile tribes bent on forcefully wiping them out through war, rape, etc.

So it was a way to keep Jews unified. It never stated Jews were better than anyone. In fact Judaism states anyone of any religion that believes in God is to be respected as an equal and we are not allowed to convert people to Judaism, they can only come on their own.

It was Christianity that defined people who did not believe in Jesus as their saviour as going to hell and it is Islam that defines those who do not believe in Allah's teachings through Muhammed as being infidel and its why those two religions discriminated against Jews and forcefully tried to convert us but not the other way around.

Zionism had nothing to do with the above either. Zionism was an apolitical concept that redefined a Jew not just someone who practiced Judaism but someone identified as a Jew and then discriminated against. Jew as an identity became a political one or a national one not a religious one.

There are religious Zionists who blend their interpretation of Judaism with Zionism but they are a minority and yes they are found on the West Bank and tend to be extremist and hateful of Arabs and Muslims.

They are however a minority and have never been more than a minority.

It is also possible to be a Zionist and not even be a Jew. Many Zionists are in fact Christian and the Bahaiis have their head temple in Israel and so are technically Zionist in that they recognize the state as Jewish, respect that Jewishness, and have no problem being Bahaii in Israel and at their headquarters in Haifa.

Certain Beduin and Druze and Arabs were and are Zionists. You do not have to be a Jew to be a Zionist.

For that matter you do not have to be a Jew to be an Israeli but yes if you are not born in Israel and are a Jew, i.e., the son of a Jewish mother, you qualify for an expedited process to get citizenship instead of waiting 5 years like non Jews.

That said, a Reform Jew like myself is not considered a Jew by many conservative and orthodox Jews outside Israel let alone inside Israel.

The people who like to come on this forum and say Zionism discriminates against non Jews in Israel will not address the fact that the discrimination they claim is also equally as felt by Jews as well as Christians and Muslims and is caused not because of religion but because of failure to obtain certain security clearances to get jobs and to get those securitty clearances one must first serve in the IDF.

Non non Jew can be forced into the IDF and the IDF will not force anti Zionist Jews into the IDF but such people who don't get security clearance of course will have problems getting certain jobs as a result of that lack of security clearance.

What the anti Zionists will not respond to because they can't is to explain how it is if Israel was ethnically cleansed and discriminates against Muslims, first off they exist in Israel, secondly their population rate grows higher than the Jewish rate and always has making a mockery of the genocide charge and lastly live the highest standard of living of any Muslim in the Middle East with all the rights of citizenship no non Muslim has in sharia law nations.

That they won't address.

As well they won't address how its cancerous for a Jew to have Jewish state but its not cancerous to have a Sharia law state.

You will notice when Hudson Jones started his comments about Zionism being cancerous he tried to equal opportunize his Zionism is a cancer equation by throwing in Wahabiism. Wahabism is an extreme from of Islam, Zionism is not about practicing any particular kind of Jewish belief. More to the point in the criticism of Whabiism, Hudson Jones DID NOT criticize one Muslim state for being a Sharia law state.

So I again ask why is it cancerous when a state is Jewish but its not cancerous when its Muslim or Christian?

What makes the concept of a Jew expressing their identity through a state cancerous but not cancerous if its done by a Christian or Muslim?

When one identfiies one group of people, i.e., Jews, and says the thing they do is cancerous but the very same thing when done by Muslims or Christians is not cancerous, then does that not discriminate against Jews?

How does it not?

Those are the issues I have challenged. To saty a Jew does not have the right to define him or herself through a state, is one that supposes the person who denies that right, is in the position to deny it.

Who gave anyone the right to deny Jews the right of universal sufferafe accessible to Christians and Muslims? Who? Who gave that right?

When you tell me as a Jew what my place (identity) is by defining what it is not, i.e., its not as collective state identity, do you not discriminate and patronize. If I told you your place was behind the house where no one can see you how would you feel?

By saying Jews are not entitled to the same universal sufferage rights as a non Jew, is that not necessarily suggesting Jews do not have the right to the same rights, i.e., we must know our place which is inferior?

Oh some of us get it and when we hear people lecture us and say "good" Jews don't get uppity and think they are worthy of a state but "bad" ones get uppity by insisting on keeping one, what is it supposed to mean?

Do we tell Catholics they must abandon the Vatican or tell Queen Elizabeth she is not allowed to head the Anglican Church?

Do we tell India to erase any expresssion of Hinduism in its government and the same of Muslims in all sharia law states?

Of course not and that was the point challenged.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Rue

[marcus]

Time to ship the illegal settlers back to Israel (or Europe or United States or wherever they came from) and out of Palestinian land. They and those who fund them, including the government of Israel, are one of Zionism's biggest problems.

Edited January 12, 2015 by marcus

[PIK]

Time to ship the palistines to the real palistine, Jordon. And let the jews have Israel which is theirs to begin with. And to the anti semites on this board, you don't fool anyone.

Edited January 12, 2015 by PIK

[Rue]

Thanks for that helpful and insightful response Marcus.

[eyeball]

Time to ship the illegal settlers back to Israel (or Europe or United States or wherever they came from) and out of Palestinian land.

By rights they should have been arrested and charged with the intent to commit terrorism before they even left where ever it is they came from.

Edited January 12, 2015 by eyeball

[Rue]

Who is they Eyeball. Lol. Why are you and Marcus couching your references?

Why you so afraid to refer to what it is you are referring to? Lol wait if I give a list will you HINT who it is?

1. Jewz

2. Jamaicans

3. Grand Cayman Islanders

4. the people of Tonga

5. Zambians

6. Inuit

7. Acadiens

8. les gay peoples

9. Toronto Maple Leaf fans

10. fat people

11. Episcopalians

12.Zulus

13. Puerto Ricans

14. aliens from the planet Romuli

15. pit bulls

16. bed bugs

Edited January 12, 2015 by Rue

[eyeball]

Who are they? Illegal settlers of course.

You got meal stuffed in your ears too?

Of course you do.

[Rue]

Of course. So then where did those illegal settlers come from, are they circumsized, do they have big noses, oh come on Eye give some hints. This is fun.