Does Israel have a right to exist?

[jbg]

Oops. Looks like your propaganda image forgot all about the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza not belonging to Israel.

Compare Israel to the sizes of Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, et. al.

[GostHacked]

So you see Jews as being manipulative and coercive?

No. I see it as people with, 1-money, 2-influence, and 3-political power , that are manipulative and coercive. Strip away their nationality, race, religion, and that is what it comes down to.

[GostHacked]

Ghost Hacked your comment that Jews survived by being manipulative and coercive is exactly what is expected of you, a negative anti-Semitic stereotype spewed out on the forum using the pretext of discussing Israel as a state to spew it.

You provide a shining example of what anti-Semitism is and how its couched on the forum using Israel as the pretext to spew it.

Your comment is a negative subjective statement that does nothing but incite hatred to Jews. I am glad it is there for all to see and you can defend it all you want. It speaks for itself.

Which comment upset you??

[jbg]

We have lots of space in North America. Why not give parts of Saskatchewan and Manitoba and NWT to the Jews to build their own country. Of course, not at the expense of others who live there. Then we can give Palestinians their land back and the Palestinians who were driven out can also go back. All this empty land and they had to choose Palestine. There was also Uganda and Argentina, which I think would have been a better option than Palestine.

What do you think Rue?

The Jews' connection to the Holy Land is quite well known.

[jbg]

No. I see it as people with, 1-money, 2-influence, and 3-political power , that are manipulative and coercive. Strip away their nationality, race, religion, and that is what it comes down to.

Sadly I have to agree with Rue, that your post displays dislike of Judaism.

[overthere]

No. I see it as people with, 1-money, 2-influence, and 3-political power , that are manipulative and coercive. Strip away their nationality, race, religion, and that is what it comes down to.

Is your surname Goebbels by any chance?

[Hudson Jones]

The Jews' connection to the Holy Land is quite well known.

Most Ashkenazis, Italians, North Africans, Iraqi, Iranian, Kurdish and Yemenite Jews share common Y-DNA haplotypes that are also found among many Arabs from Palestine, Lebanon and Syria.

There is no "special" connection.

[overthere]

There is no "special" connection.

Therefore Jerusalem is a hologram.

[eyeball]

The Jews' connection to the Holy Land is quite well known.

Jews need to think outside that box. If God made the Earth then the whole planet is Holy.

[Hudson Jones]

Therefore Jerusalem is a hologram.

Therefore, a group of people cannot come and kick another group of people out claiming special connection to the land. Eh?

[overthere]

Therefore, a group of people cannot come and kick another group of people out claiming special connection to the land. Eh?

Are you the same guy who wants to move the Jooos to NWT because their DNA is hinky?

Are you seriously suggesting that the Jews are recent arrivals in Palestine?

Next up: Holocaust Denial.

I've seen this movie before.

[jbg]

Therefore, a group of people cannot come and kick another group of people out claiming special connection to the land. Eh?

Did the Mohammedan marauders kick anyone out or just kill them?

[Hudson Jones]

Did the Mohammedan marauders kick anyone out or just kill them?

Are you saying it's okay to kick people out of a land?

We have many international rules and laws. Most came to be after the holocaust and for good reason. Why are you so against international law?

[Hudson Jones]

Are you seriously suggesting that the Jews are recent arrivals in Palestine?

Yes. Many of the Jews in Palestine are recent arrivals.

There were people living in Palestine for hundreds of years before the European Jews (who have less linkage to Palestine than the Arabs who have been living there for centuries) arrived into Palestine and started kicking the Palestinians out, claiming it to be their land.

Are you seriously trying to defend ethnic cleansing?

[GostHacked]

Is your surname Goebbels by any chance?

Hmm, label me a Nazi as well as an anti-semite. I am sure that will push the conversation forward. Nothing in that reply of mine indicates anything anti-semite. Am I wrong in saying that people with political power, money and influence can and do get their way? Examples would include, Putin and Russia taking Crimea. Bush and the US with Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Syria under Obama.

Strip away the religion and you have what is really the driver. The religion is simply being used (as it is with Islam, Christianity ect) as a tool to coerce people. I am an atheist, and religions really do not concern me on the whole, but more of certain religious leaders that can ride a wave of unwarranted support for a specific cause.

But when it comes down to it, Goebbels might admire the 'Jewish only' bit in essence. He would admire it not because it is about Jews, but that it gives a 'master race' type mentality. A more homogenous culture.

Ok, with all that said, you can throw more insults at me now.

[Rue]

We have lots of space in North America. Why not give parts of Saskatchewan and Manitoba and NWT to the Jews to build their own country. Of course, not at the expense of others who live there. Then we can give Palestinians their land back and the Palestinians who were driven out can also go back. All this empty land and they had to choose Palestine. There was also Uganda and Argentina, which I think would have been a better option than Palestine.

What do you think Rue?

What Palestinians that were driven out? They are all dead. What you are referring to are in fact Muslims of the Middle East who are descended from those that moved to Palestine and pushed Palestinian Muslims out but claim today to be Palestinian and live on the West Bank, in Gaza and in refugee camps created by their Arab brothers and sisters.

What do I think? I think you have created a revisionist myth that the people you call Palestinian are not in fact descendants of Muslims who displaced Palestinians.

What I think is you have no way or clue as to how to identify a true Palestinian and borrow the one created by Arafat in 1967.

What I think is you have no clue who a Palestinian is.

What I think is you ask me stupid questions designed to bait.

What I think is your asking me what you did shows you have zero credibility and could care less what I think.

What I know is the notion that either Palestinians or Israelis should be deported is equally as idiotic.

Oh say, let's move all non aboriginal Canadians back to Europe, tee hee what do you think tee hee hee.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Rue

[Rue]

Say now, Israel would live to see Iran exterminated. Ghost now speaks for all Israelis and knows what they think especially the Israelis who came from Iran.

Ghost your stereotypes as to what you think people think is past idiotic.

You do not know what Israelis think or feel. You have zero clue.

What you do is spew yet another negative stereotype.

Let's be clear as well shall we;

1-when you make idiotic generalized stereotype assumptions as to what all Israelis think, you make anti Israeli comments;

2-when you make idiotic generalized sterotype negative descriptions as to the character of all Jews as you did calling us all manipulators and coercive, that makes your comments anti semetic.

As for you as a person, I do not care. I only comment as to your words. They speak for themselves and reflect the kind of cognitive process that would idicate you label with negative allegations.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Say now, Israel would live to see Iran exterminated. Ghost now speaks for all Israelis and knows what they think especially the Israelis who came from Iran.

Ghost your stereotypes as to what you think people think is past idiotic.

You do not know what Israelis think or feel. You have zero clue.

What you do is spew yet another negative stereotype.

Let's be clear as well shall we;

1-when you make idiotic generalized stereotype assumptions as to what all Israelis think, you make anti Israeli comments;

Right, don't make assumptions.

2-when you make idiotic generalized sterotype negative descriptions as to the character of all Jews as you did calling us all manipulators and coercive, that makes your comments anti semetic.

Incorrect. I specifically said it was people with power, money and influence that are the manipulators, once the religion is stripped away of the individual that is all you have. Religion is used as a tool FOR manipulation and coercion.

As for you as a person, I do not care. I only comment as to your words. They speak for themselves and reflect the kind of cognitive process that would idicate you label with negative allegations.

How kind of you.

Edited December 10, 2014 by GostHacked

[PrimeNumber]

1-when you make idiotic generalized stereotype assumptions as to what all Israelis think, you make anti Israeli comments;

Watch out now. I've seen you make idiotic generalized assumptions as to what ALL Palestinians and Muslims think.

[marcus]

What Palestinians that were driven out? They are all dead.

That is an idiotic comment.

[Rue]

Jews need to think outside that box. If God made the Earth then the whole planet is Holy.

That is an idiotic comment.

Eye your need to lecture Jews on what they should belief is a tired act. Your need to come on this board and use these threads to insult and patronize Jews speaks for itself. You could not do a better job illustrating how people use such threads to engage in their anti semitic agendas. tee hee another snide comment about Jews. They are malicious, coercive and now not creative. Must be something Eye to be so smug that you can look down from your pedestal of religious and moral righteousness and sneer at Jews from the same anonymous confines of your forum perch. Lol.Oh look someone sticking their tongues out at Jews.Been there, done that. Lol. Nyah nyah anda goo goo to you Jew.

In regards to the comments of Marcus;

The Palestinians living on the West Bank today were not driven out of anywhere. You live in a fantasy world where your revisionist drivel has people born on the West Bank today as having been driven out of Israel. That is fiction. They never were.

What they in fact claim is their grandparents or maybe parents were driven out of Israel.

The vast majority of people claiming to have been driven out of Israel by Jews were not Palestinians but Muslims who moved there after the British created an immigration policy to flood Palestine with Muslims to prevent a Jewish state.

These Muslims swamped Palestine displacing actual Palestinians and they in fact also went to Jordan created as a Jew free Palestinian state illegally by Britain contrary to its mandate awarded to them by the League of Nations to create oneJewish and one Muslim state in the area known as Palestine. These outside immigrant Muslims ere granted automatic ciizenship in the Palestinian state of Jordan which it still refers itself as a Palestinian state to this day. They also settled on the West Bank, Gaza, or were arrested by Arab League nations in Lebanon, and Syria and placed in refugee camps.

The actual Muslims who fled Israel in advance of the war in 1948-49 have now died and of those Muslims who stayed, their descendants have the highest standard of living with the most democratic rights of any Muslim in the Middle East an irony your script can't admit.

All anyone has to do is count from 1949 to get approximate the age of actual people who fled. There may be some old people left but the vast majority of people calling themselves Palestinian are their children or grandchildren are either Muslims who are not Palestinian who have come to identify as Palestinian or the children or grandchildren of these displaced Palestinians.

Palestinian refugees as they call themselves today are not actual refugees as they fled nowhere. They may not be considered citizens of Arab League nations who refuse to accept them, and therefore are stateless but they have fled nowhere and their statelessness which they blame on Israel is in fact a direct result of Arab League nations refusing to take them in as citizens as Jordan once did.

One could now make the argument they might be refugees of the civil wars in Iraq or Syria or Hezbollah persecution in Lebanon.

They may continue to be stateless, but that is the direct result of the Arab League of Nations refusing to given them citizenship.

Canada has the largest Palestinian population in the world outsidethe West Bank in Mississauga, Ontario granting thousands citizenship. Many have obtained citizenship in Europe and the US as well as Australia and New Zealand.

Jordan gave automatic citizenship to Palestinians under a Palestinian law of return no different than the Jewish law of return in Israel until 1967 after Arafat failed to kill Hussein and seize Jordan. Take that up with Jordan not Israel.

Its also interesting you never ever mention Jordan which in fact is state prohibiting Jews as being citizens and sits on 85% of Palestinian land. Interesting how you and your entourage will never discuss that when you talk of taking back Israel.

The UN interestingly changed the definition of refugees so that only those claiming to be Palestinian, are the only people in the world, who do not themselves have to be displaced to be called refugees. All other peoples whether they were Biafran, Jewish, from Rwanda, Burundi, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Somalia, on and on, are not defined this way. All other peoples mjust physically have been themselves displaced to be called a refugee. This double standard created by the UN is blatant political discrimination against other refugees.

Now when we look at the actual people claimining to be Palestinian refugees they are in fact born outside Israel but claim to be descended from those who left israel That claim is necessarily nonsensical for two reasons; i-most of them are in fact descended from Muslims who moved to the area they call Palestine (Israel) displacing actual Palestinians-they are no different than the Jews who came to Palestine from outside-the issue is you use the discriminatory revisionist drivel that suggests when a Muslim moves to Palestine from outside Palestine they are not foreigners and invaders, but if a Jew did it, they are. This comes from the revisionist drivel that Jews do not come from the Middle East originally but Muslims do.

Secondly, there is no test to see if one is actually Palestinian. At this time a Palestinian is defined as any Muslim who wants to call him or herself a Palestinian.

Go find out how many so called Palestinians are in fact Iraqis, or other Muslims who moved to Palestine and simply stayed and now call themselves that,

Save your revisionist Hamas drivel for someone else. What I know is Arafat deliberately blew up the Land Registry office on the West Bank to destroy the actual evidence of who hand the original land rights because the majority of people calling themselves Palestinian land owners in fact were Muslims who illegally took over land that was not there own and were flipping it selling it to as many as 20 people at the same time.

Save the drivel.

That said it does not mean there should not be a second state on the West Bank other than Jordan that calls itself a Palestinian state.

These people of course need a state. However it will not come about from this revisionist drivel that claims it will be in Israel after eradicating the Jewish state.

Oh but you knew that. Hudson Jone's call to collectively radiate Zionist Israel is going to be difficult. No Israei Jew is going to line up for anti Zionist chemotherapy or radiation treatment. The days of us lining up for such things is over. We learned from the holocaust you know.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Rue, why do the British get brought up in these discussions, but not held accountable for the events that happened after the Mandate? I bring them up, you bring them up, but it always is the Muslims to blame when Jews displaced Muslims in what we now see as Israel. I find it really odd that you would say the Palestinians have not been forced from the West Bank. However they have been forced into small groups in which the surrounding area is checkpoint controlled via the IDF and we see Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

Not being forced out? Bull. Your brethren seem to be the golden boys that can do no wrong.

[Rue]

God question but you misrepresende what I said and I do not see how complaining about Britain will solve anything today.

As well at no time have I come on this board presenting Israel as a golden boy-I respond to the one sided piss on Israel diatribes, if I have reason to criticize Israeli policies, I do. See the difference is I do not insult Jall ews when I discuss Israeli policies.

The reality is the West Bank is a delicate ecosphere already being permanently damaged environmentally from poor urban planning and pollution and spreading population. There is a shortage of water. Electricity is a problem. These are all solveable. This is what is so frustrating. There is technology that exists now as we speak that could create a state on the West Bank and Gaza and have it form a commonwealth with Jordan and Israel. A common market free trade agreement between Jordan, Palestine and Israel would make the most sense so they could share, water, electricity, airports, transportation systems, irrigation and farming systems not to mention sewers, hospitals, and so on.

For that to happen this bullshit that Israel can not be Jewish and must turn itself Muslim is not going to achieve peace and neither is expanding further settlements by Israel.

Abbas uses the code reference to turning Israel it into a Sharia law state and it is why Abbas stands up in his assembly and says something to his audience far different than when he speaks with the Western media. In his own assembly he talks of a war that will never end until Israel is liberated from the Jews for the Muslims. That is a fact, read his speeches and he's the moderate one.

That then triggers Netanyahu to answer back with more settlements. Its tit for tat with both caught up in a bullshit war of words i n between the actual attacks from terrorists on Israel and then responses from the IDF.

As for Britain, it and France through the Picot agreement deliberately pitted Jews against Arabs so they could divide and conquer. Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, the UAE, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Oman, Brunei, Sudan, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Morrocco, Chad, Niger, on and on, these are all colonial carved borders.

In fact the only non colonial border is Israel's that came about fighting Britain, France and Germany who all combined to try prevent it from coming about on behalf of their Arab colonial clients.

Today the Muslim world is split between Shiite and Sunni, extremist fundamentalist Muslim v.s. modern progressive, monarchist v. republican, Muslim Brotherhood v.s. Egypt and Saudi Arabia v.s. Hezbollah-Shiite-Iran, on and on. Israel is but one issue in literally thousands of conflicts in the area.

Just between Israel, Jordan and Israel we are dealing with Canon (Christian) law and its land rights, municipal Israeli laws, federal Israeli laws, domestic Palestinian regulations, international law. All these levels of law inter-weave in a complex maze of inter-connected conflicts, where if you solve certain legal issues at one level, you trigger them at another level.

In this conflict neither Israeli or Palestinian is wrong or right. They have equal right to live in states, one Jewish one Sharia, but its not going to happen right now. The Arab League of Nations and Abbas says they will never recognize a Jewish state under ANY circumstance. Hamas and the other over 300 terror cells including Al Asqa Martyr Brigade and Fatah Hawks and Eagles tle latter 3 members of Abbas' Palestinian authority all make it clear they are at war to remove Jews not just from the Middle East but the world.

You read it, we have Eye coming on this board saying Jews should think outside the box. His idiotic statement of course fails to recognize the fact that because Jews have been targetted all over the world for extermination by Muslim extremists like Hamas and Al Quaeda, Israel has to be the best of any country in thinking outside the box to survive and make sure not just Jews but all innocent people do not die as a result of Muslim extremists.

We have to talk today, this instant, this moment. Not whine about what Britain did or did not do. This moment calls for people taking about what we can do now today. Its not about speaking in negative terms pissing on Israel and Jews.

Neother side is right or wrong and both sides fuel the conflict. I never have come on this board portraying Israel as being perfect.

I have stated repeatedly it adds to the problems with expanded settlements on the West Bank or with certain building sites in East Jerusalem.

I do not come on this board to portray it as perfect. I do come on this board to counter the one sided piss on Jews, Israelis, diatribes.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Rue

[GostHacked]

God question

The reality is the West Bank is a delicate ecosphere already being permanently damaged environmentally from poor urban planning and pollution and spreading population.

I agree, one good reason to remove the illegal Israeli settlements from the West Bank.

[Rue]

Right, don't make assumptions.

Incorrect. I specifically said it was people with power, money and influence that are the manipulators, once the religion is stripped away of the individual that is all you have. Religion is used as a tool FOR manipulation and coercion.

How kind of you.

First off I challenged Eye as to his comments about Jews being manipulative and coercive not you.

Secondly I would agree religion has been used azs a tool to manipulate and coerce or control people or as Marx said be used as an opium on the masses. Of course.

What I challenge is when its only used as a reference to Jews and not all religions. It was used in a context to criticize Israel for existing as a Jewish state. However the concept of Israel being a Jewish state does not mean it practices Judaism. Most Zionists were not religious and the state seperates the Jewish religion from Muslims and Christians in regards to their own religious laws. It also enables non religious Jews to ignore the traditional Jewish laws the Chief Rabbinate wants to preach on its people.

Israel seperates its Judaism religious practices from the day to day practices and implementation of its state laws. You confuse the concept of Jew defined by Zionism as a religious one. It is not. It does not define Jewish Israelis as simply those practicing Judaism. It never did. It defines Jews as a category of people persecuted for being perceived not just as practicing Judaism, but being a people whose legal and state rights should be inferior to those of Christians and Muslims. Zionism is a reaction to Christian and Muslim states using their religions as the pretext to then pass non religious laws to discriminate against Jews and strip Jews of the right to own land, enter certain professions or as we saw in the holocaust, simply breathing.

Israel is an existential political reaction to prevent extermination by states using state organs by countering with its own state. That state protects Jews as a people. It does not tell Jews how to pray or be Jewish and it does not impose Jewish relgiion on Muslims or Christians.

We already had one poster Big Guy assuming Israel hates homosexuals since it practices Judaism. The assumptions are not coming from me.