Iran Key To Middle East Peace

[Hudson Jones]

There are sites all over that give guesstimates of between 10,000 and 35,000. And plenty of sites (Jewish ones even...ghasp) that say life is fairly good for a Jew in Iran, careful existence but not scary existence.

Sharkman plays these games of deceit often. Marcus showed that Jews are safe in Iran while he and a few others are claiming that Iran wants to kill Jews, and now he's trying to change the subject and accuse him of lying because he posted some statistic from 2009.

Here is a recent article which talks about Iranian Jews under the current government of Iran:

Under Rohani, Iranian Jews find greater acceptance

Iran, a home for Jews for more than 3,000 years, has the Middle East's largest Jewish population outside of Israel, a perennial foe of the country.

More than a thousand people trekked across Iran this past week to visit a shrine in this ancient Persian city, a pilgrimage like many others in the Islamic Republic — until you notice men there wearing yarmulkes.

"The government has listened to our grievances and requests. That we are being consulted is an important step forward," said Homayoun Samiah, leader of the Tehran Jewish Association. "Under former President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, nobody was listening to us. Our requests fell on deaf ears."

Most of Iran's 77 million people are Shiite Muslims and its ruling establishment is led by hard-line clerics who preach a strict version of Islam. Many Jews fled the country after the 1979 Islamic Revolution. Jews linked to Israel afterward were targeted. Today, estimates suggest some 20,000 Jews remain in the country.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Hudson Jones

[bush_cheney2004]

The Canada-Israel Free Trade Agreement (CIFTA) has existed since 1997. Negotiations are in progress to expand the scope of CIFTA.

One should note that Canada does not have a free trade agreement with Iran.

[Hudson Jones]

The Canada-Israel Free Trade Agreement (CIFTA) has existed since 1997. Negotiations are in progress to expand the scope of CIFTA.

One should note that Canada does not have a free trade agreement with Iran.

Okay then.

Thanks for bringing in your pom pom's into the discussion.

Sorry Iran! No Canada Free Trade deal for YOU!

[Hudson Jones]

Hudson Jones you're missingthe point. your thing said most of them fled. if it was so good and fair and so much better than Israel why feel the need to flee at all?

I'm not missing the point. Perhaps I will explain what I mean: They fled after the revolution because a religious, anti-Western regime was coming to power. Many people escaped Iran. Mostly secular, Shah-friendly and Western friendly people. Many of those were Jewish. As the article explains, things are different now, vs the 1980's, after the revolution. They've improved even more under the most recent government.

Since the revolution, something like 19 Jews have been killed. Even 1 person being killed is too many, however, relatively speaking, 19 Jews killed in 35 years does not show that the government of Iran has something against Jews or their religion. The only suspicion is against those who have been charged (whether correctly or incorrectly - I don't know) with spying for Israel. This paranoia is understandable. Israel is the enemy for understandable reasons. They continuously talk about attacking Iran and they've engaged in assassinating their scientists.

You have allowed the narrative of the Hasbara to control what you think and say. You have repeatedly commented in how Muslims or Iran want to kill Jews, when reality says otherwise.

First, you were given the example of over 1 million Muslims inside Israel, who are not killing Jews and now we are having a discussion about how Jews in Iran are free to practice their religion, be part of society and to also be part of the government.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Hudson Jones

[Rue]

Sharkman plays these games of deceit often. .

The personal attacks from Marcus and Hudson Jones speak for themselves.

The above accuses Sharkman of lying.

The following words from Hudson Jones are of course refer to my earlier posts on this thread providing references from Jews living in Iran countering the opinions of Marcus and Hudson Jones and the other experts of how Jews live in Iran;

"You have allowed the narrative of the Hasbara to control what you think and say."

These posters show they attack the person, not the contents of the information provided. The personal attacks continue and are unfortunate.

"narrative of the Hasbara". Right. Just what someone from Canada says between sips of Tim Horton's.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Rue

[Rue]

Lol Skipper the only way anyone gets a rise out of me these days is with Viagra.

[sharkman]

"Sharkman plays these games of deceit often"

The personal attacks from Marcus and Hudson Jones speak for themselves.

The above accuses Sharkman of lying.

I know, they're pretty funny though that's probably not what they're after. But let's take a look at the language, the speech pattern. Who even talks like that? "Games of deceit". Every now and then an awkward expression like that gets used. On this forum the complaint gets made now and then, people hiding who they really are, or coming back with different handles. Hasn't Hudson done that a few times? I just wonder what they're so scared of that they want to hide themselves. Not being ashamed of one's heritage or religion is a small step on the road to reality. May there be a road.

Edited November 28, 2014 by sharkman

[marcus]

Panic! Someone said Game of Deceit! Ring the moderator bell!

Sharkman: I accept your apology. I won't hold it against your integrity and ego.

[marcus]

I do not feel a Canadian blanket support, or any unconditional support, is a wise position for Canada.

I believe the only blanket support Canada should be giving is towards international law and human rights.

[Rue]

Oh look who is trying to focus away from the thread again. Say now. What's the matter. Can you not discuss the actiual thread?

Back to the original thread you can't discuss:

Here is an interesting position stated that critiques Obama's approach to relations with Iran which is directly on point to this thread. It can be found at:

http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2014/11/23/iran-obamas-biggest-failure-fails-again/

SIMON SAYS:

1-" Among the many lies and failures of Barack Obama, ultimately the most dangerous, the most lethal for humanity, is his meretricious and pathetic pursuit of a nuclear deal with Iran...Obama and his minions have been treating the mullahs as if they were the leaders of Denmark, even to the point of sending fawning multiple mailings to Ayatollah Khamenei, as absurd an approach as it is asinine."

2-" If Obama really wanted a deal, he would have gone about it in a very different manner, strengthening sanctions rather than weakening them, treating the mullahs as the autocratic religious fanatics that they are."

3-" What Obama seems to want instead is the appearance that he seeks to deprive Iran of the bomb, not the actual result."

In regards to Obama granting Iran yet another deadline to talk about their nuclear bombs SIMON SAYS:

4. "It is clear the Iranian leadership is getting precisely what they wanted yet again — more time to build a bomb and improve their nuclear delivery capabilities, including ICBMs, which have no other use other than for nuclear attack."

and my favourite zinger:

.

"Only a narcissist like Obama could think otherwise, think that his force of personality could overcome Khomeinist Shiite ideology."

Here's what the Washington Post's Jennifer Rubin had to say:

"For years we have been negotiating and Iran still will not agree to any meaningful prohibitions on enrichment. You would think by now the administration would have figured out the lay of the land. But of course by denying the obvious, that Iran isn’t giving up anything, President Obama can resist pleas for more robust action and claim his policy is still viable..."

and how about this one and wait before Hudson Jones calls it Hasbrah narrative or Marcus calls it deceitful it comes from wikileak although it can be found this time being quoted by Shoula Romano Horing at http://israelpalestine-speedy.blogspot.ca/2010/12/obamas-iran-failure.html :

"For the last two years President Obama has been obsessing with “engaging” the Muslim world while ignoring the “moderates” in the Islamic countries who have been imploring the US to stop Iran’s development of nuclear weapons.

For two years President Obama and his administration have fabricated a mythical argument that progress on the Israeli–Palestinian issue through the stopping of settlement construction will help get the “moderate” Arab nations in the region like Saudi Arabia, the Persian Gulf State, Egypt and Jordan on board in stopping Iran.

But the confidential documents from US embassies made public on WikiLeaks reveal that those countries have already been on board, by hounding and begging the Obama administration to take military action, including airstrikes and the use of ground forces, against the Iranians

Moreover, while Obama was wasting time and personally orchestrating public confrontations with Israel over the settlement issue and the creation of a Palestinian state, it seems that Arab Sunni leaders, in private communications with US officials, did not even mention the settlements or the Palestinian issue as their main urgent concern. As one Middle East expert from Cairo told the Los Angeles Times, the official stance in the Middle East led by Arab Sunni states has always been” that it is Iran and not Israel that poses the main threat to the region.”

According to WikiLeaks, Saudi Arabian King Abdullah urged the US to attack ”evil” Iran, saying that “it is necessary to cut the head of the snake.” King Hamad of Bahrain was quoted in 2009 as saying ”the Iranian nuclear program must be terminated by whatever means necessary. The danger of letting it go on is greater than the danger of stopping it.” Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Muhammad bin Zayed urged the US not to appease or engage Tehran, referring to it as an “existential threat” and stating that “Ahmadinejad is Hitler.” "

Now here is how it works. I have provided opinions above to back up mine that I believe Obama's foreign policy with Iran is an absolute joke and failure.

Not one point raised in the above will be responded to. Lol not one. But I guarantee I will be dismissed or it will be dismissed as Hasbrah narrative.

Its how it works. Some of us express our opinions, others, come to attack the messenger and not the message.

Oh now come Marcus and Hudson. Iran is utopia for Jews. Its a swell place to live. Its a great place to have nuclear missiles.

But these words below, they really summarize my position on Obama and his approach to the Middle East and Iran and can be found in an essay entitled, "Obama's failure on Iran and ISIS by SLATER BAKHTAVAR written September 16, 2014 and can be foudn at: Family Security Matters http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/obamas-failure-on-iran-and-isis#ixzz3KOl87fmx

".....Barack Obama has consistently demonstrated his commitment to abandoning American moral obligations in the Middle East. This was most plainly done by withdrawing troops from Iraq when it was precisely American military action that gave rise to the instabilities seen in that nation and that had the power to hold those instabilities in check. But Obama's negligence has been even more egregious in the case of Iran. The United States of America claims to be a nation of people who love freedom and treasure democracy, and who even are willing to stand with those elsewhere in the world who strive to achieve what Americans have the luxury of taking for granted. Ask any American patriot why blood was spilled in World Wars 1 and 2, or Viet Nam, or any of the other conflicts in which the United States has taken part, and the unanimous answer will always be "freedom". But where was this commitment to the liberty of man when real people facing real struggles needed it the most? The men and women of Iran needed Barack Obama's support, and he turned a blind eye and a deaf ear on their plight. Now, stemming partly from that failure, we have ISIS, a powerful terrorist organization threatening to continue its cancerous spread across an already volatile region. Large parts of Iraq and Syria have already fallen, with other nations sitting squarely in the crosshairs. How many will die the next time President Obama ignores the American creed?"

Oh but hey now, we don't debate the above. We can just dismiss it as Hasbrah narrative. Lol.

[Hudson Jones]

The only time Rue stops giving his opinion, is when he's posting opinions of the Hasbara industry... oh and comments by the Saudi King Abdullah!

George Bush listened to AIPAC in regards to Iran by not engaging and negotiating. Exactly what Rue and the Hasbara industry and all his opinion pieces continue to demand. The result? Iran ended up tripling the number of centrifuges. This is proof that Iran can be approached in two ways: Either negotiate with them or start a bloody war. Since Israel does not have the power to do this by itself, it would need the U.S. to get involved. That's not going to happen. The U.S., no matter how much pressure it receives from AIPAC and its prostitutes in congress and senate, it is sober enough to know that an attack on Iran would be multiple times worse than what happened in Iraq.

In an ideal world, my approach to a nuclear bomb free Iran would start with pressuring Israel to join the NPT and forcing Israel to disarm and get rid of its nuclear weapons. Some don't like the fair approach and instead prefer the unfair, unjust and bully approach, but hey, call me an idealist.

Since Israel will not accept to be treated like everyone else, then there is no way Iran would accept to give up its option to make its own nuclear bomb deterrence.

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel can bomb Iran whenever it chooses, making the point rather moot. The region already survived an Iraq-Iran war.

[Rue]

George Bush never refused to negotiate with Iran. In fact when Colin Powell was Secretary of State there were many talks with Iran.

I guess they didn't fill you in at your Tehran desk. Sorry it was a need to know basis.

Bush took out Hussein. Do you really think that was possible Hudson Jones without talks with Iran and for that matter Russia, China and many others? Do you think the US can operate in a vacuum? What world do you live in?.

Can your desk get serious once? Can you just once say something that is even remotely connected to what Bush actually did?

Is that possible? The communication between Chaney and Rumsfeld and Powell and Rice through intermediaries is public domain.

Now ask me if I support John McCain's current position on how to deal with Iran. I certainly do and after January as a result of the position he will take over in the Senate as Chairman of a certain committee his opinion and that of many others BOTH democrat and republican are no longer going to be ignored.

Oh by the way before you misrepresent his position, read it. He does not want to bomb Iran. So spare me the bomb bomb Iran response.

The current status quo allowing Iran to build a nuclear bomb while engaging in the pretense there are on-going negotiations to stop it is a joke and the congress is in no mood for the failed Obama soft step on Iran.

His days of capitulating to countries who pose a security threat to the US are coming to an end.

He has absolutely screwed up the Iran portfolio and that will change.

The senate expects a tighter timeline on deadlines and more sanctions.

Anyone who wants to try contend Iran is a stable regime, etc., and an ally of the US is like you a very enjoyable to read.

Very enjoyable.

hasbrah industry you say? What now I make bras do I?

This tit for tat is getting quite funny.Bra industry he says. Right.

This coming from someone who manufacturs what Hamas underpanties? Is that the analogy you want Mr. Jones?

Hasbrah. Sounds for sure like an industrial strength military bra though,

Edited November 29, 2014 by Rue

[Big Guy]

The negotiations with Iran are continuing;

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/12/iran-nuclear-talks-geneva-2014121120263111393.html

It is expected that the P5+1 negotiators form the UN are more willing to compromise their demands since Iran is the key to the current ISIS vs the world battle in the Middle East. It will be interesting to see in which these negotiations are headed.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Big Guy

[On Guard for Thee]

The negotiations with Iran are continuing;

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/12/iran-nuclear-talks-geneva-2014121120263111393.html

It is expected that the P5+1 negotiators form the UN are more willing to compromise their demands since Iran is the key to the current ISIS vs the world battle in the Middle East. It will be interesting to see in which these negotiations are headed.

What makes you think Iran is the key to gutting ISIS?

[PrimeNumber]

What makes you think Iran is the key to gutting ISIS?

Iran is using the problem of ISIS to de-thaw relations with the US and UK. Canada wants no part of it so far. They want ISIS gone just as much as anyone else for fear of their dogma spreading throughout Iran and eventually destabilizing one of the most stable countries in the area.

[On Guard for Thee]

Iran is using the problem of ISIS to de-thaw relations with the US and UK. Canada wants no part of it so far. They want ISIS gone just as much as anyone else for fear of their dogma spreading throughout Iran and eventually destabilizing one of the most stable countries in the area.

Yes as I understand it Iran actually has some "boots on the ground" in the levant. What's tricky about that is you now have Muslim's fighting Muslim's. Iran does want to have the sanctions lifted and get their nuclear power system passing muster. It's an interesting political mix for sure. Once again I'm damn glad I don't have Obama's job.

[PrimeNumber]

Yes as I understand it Iran actually has some "boots on the ground" in the levant. What's tricky about that is you now have Muslim's fighting Muslim's. Iran does want to have the sanctions lifted and get their nuclear power system passing muster. It's an interesting political mix for sure. Once again I'm damn glad I don't have Obama's job.

You already have Muslims fighting Muslims, the Kurds are largely Sunni. Might as well have them quell their own radicals. As much as I'd rather just have nothing to do with any state in the region, having Iran on your side really is the best way to find peace with Muslim people as a whole, people don't realize how young Islam as a religion is. They will have their own "enlightenment" so to speak very soon. It's already happening with the youth during the Arab Spring and will only continue to happen as these young people become the one's assuming roles of political power be it through revolution or democracy. I have high hopes for the Middle East in coming years provided their youth can remain vigilant in enacting change.

[On Guard for Thee]

You already have Muslims fighting Muslims, the Kurds are largely Sunni. Might as well have them quell their own radicals. As much as I'd rather just have nothing to do with any state in the region, having Iran on your side really is the best way to find peace with Muslim people as a whole, people don't realize how young Islam as a religion is. They will have their own "enlightenment" so to speak very soon. It's already happening with the youth during the Arab Spring and will only continue to happen as these young people become the one's assuming roles of political power be it through revolution or democracy. I have high hopes for the Middle East in coming years provided their youth can remain vigilant in enacting change.

Unfortunately it's these bloody Ayatollahs screwing things up for the rest of the folks there. I worked in Iran for some time and I found a very young, very open minded population for the most part, but of course the women having to hide their lovely faces whilst out and about. If they kick those old freaks out of power the place I suspect has the potential to do very well.

[PrimeNumber]

Unfortunately it's these bloody Ayatollahs screwing things up for the rest of the folks there. I worked in Iran for some time and I found a very young, very open minded population for the most part, but of course the women having to hide their lovely faces whilst out and about. If they kick those old freaks out of power the place I suspect has the potential to do very well.

There are many young people whom I work with from Iran, Palestine, Egypt and the UAE. They tell me things are changing with the youth in the region. They are questioning things that have remained unquestioned for almost centuries and are beginning to look to the world as a whole for their guidance rather than their religious leaders. Though the elderly in the region are very hesitant and often times dismissive of the youth. They tell me it's an odd situation but they feel that the situation in the middle east will change and they largely thank the internet for that change. It's refreshing to interact with young people who consider themselves Muslims and at the same time view many of the radical ideals of their own religion as ridiculous and misinterpreted. They even us the term "right-wing fanatics" sometimes which always makes me laugh.

[On Guard for Thee]

There are many young people whom I work with from Iran, Palestine, Egypt and the UAE. They tell me things are changing with the youth in the region. They are questioning things that have remained unquestioned for almost centuries and are beginning to look to the world as a whole for their guidance rather than their religious leaders. Though the elderly in the region are very hesitant and often times dismissive of the youth. They tell me it's an odd situation but they feel that the situation in the middle east will change and they largely thank the internet for that change. It's refreshing to interact with young people who consider themselves Muslims and at the same time view many of the radical ideals of their own religion as ridiculous and misinterpreted. They even us the term "right-wing fanatics" sometimes which always makes me laugh.

During my time there I saw that young people would sit at a table in a shopping mall, sipping a coke and listening to music. But they were not allowed to dance so they might rock their shoulders as they sat. Then, since I was connected with the airline industry I got invited to the odd party which were in gated housing communities, and behind closed doors, off came the head gear, on went the music, out came the beer and that terrible sin of dancing raged. Good times. Smart people. Let's hope they can lift the lid. Maybe ask your Iranian colleagues about Kish Island.

[PrimeNumber]

During my time there I saw that young people would sit at a table in a shopping mall, sipping a coke and listening to music. But they were not allowed to dance so they might rock their shoulders as they sat. Then, since I was connected with the airline industry I got invited to the odd party which were in gated housing communities, and behind closed doors, off came the head gear, on went the music, out came the beer and that terrible sin of dancing raged. Good times. Smart people. Let's hope they can lift the lid. Maybe ask your Iranian colleagues about Kish Island.

That is exactly the sort of things they talk about. I will most certainly do so when I see him next Tuesday.

They often speak of the way things are in public and the way they are becoming in private, even how the treatment of women is beginning to change behind closed doors. It's the old right wing men that are in charge who refuse to change and the youth are beginning to do what youth should do, rebel. Many of them wish they could return. There is a young man from Egypt whom often speaks of how he wishes he could be apart of the revolution in Egypt, the way he speaks about it and how he wishes he could join his friends back home. It gives me hope that this young generation of Arabs can really change the world if they wish to, and obviously for the better. Some are Muslims, some are Christian, some are Jews and some they tell me are even Irreligious though they often do not make that belief public. Even though they all have different beliefs they know that the status quo can only lead to more bloodshed. Which they, to the dismay of many western right wing politicians, do not want.

[On Guard for Thee]

That is exactly the sort of things they talk about. I will most certainly do so when I see him next Tuesday.

They often speak of the way things are in public and the way they are becoming in private, even how the treatment of women is beginning to change behind closed doors. It's the old right wing men that are in charge who refuse to change and the youth are beginning to do what youth should do, rebel. Many of them wish they could return. There is a young man from Egypt whom often speaks of how he wishes he could be apart of the revolution in Egypt, the way he speaks about it and how he wishes he could join his friends back home. It gives me hope that this young generation of Arabs can really change the world if they wish to, and obviously for the better. Some are Muslims, some are Christian, some are Jews and some they tell me are even Irreligious though they often do not make that belief public. Even though they all have different beliefs they know that the status quo can only lead to more bloodshed. Which they, to the dismay of many western right wing politicians, do not want.

Perhaps you heard this but if not:

http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2014/12/11/nazila-fathis-account-of-growing-up-in-revolutionary-iran/

[PrimeNumber]

Perhaps you heard this but if not:

http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2014/12/11/nazila-fathis-account-of-growing-up-in-revolutionary-iran/

I have not seen this exact story but I have heard of the Green Movement in Iran. A very interesting story though, not unlike many I have heard. Revolution is happening in the middle east no matter where you look, some more successful than others but they all are making a difference.

[On Guard for Thee]

I have not seen this exact story but I have heard of the Green Movement in Iran. A very interesting story though, not unlike many I have heard. Revolution is happening in the middle east no matter where you look, some more successful than others but they all are making a difference.

I shared a cockpit with a number of Iranian pilots. Most had had training in the US, some had served in the Iran/Iraq war, one was looking forwrd to retiring to the US where his brother owned a gas station in Cal. None had a lot of good to say about the current government.