Jian Ghomeshi Fired from Q

[Hal 9000]

You're defending him by attacking his accusers.

I'm not attacking anybody! I'm saying the case (as we know it) is too week for anything other than a basic assault.

For all the emotion in Reva Seth's story, the facts are simple; they dated a few times, went to his place and got drunk and stoned, started to get it on, he finger banged her, she didn't like it and left without having intercourse.

As for Lucy DeCoutere, they went to his place, started getting it on, he slapped her 3 times moderately, she was surprised but never protested, they proceeded to have intercourse.

The other woman was a girlfriend who I assume had the same type of sexual relations with him a number of times and only felt to mention it after being dumped.

Sorry, but none of this sounds jail worthy...yet!

BTW - Do it have to mention in every post that i think the guy is a scumbag creep or can I trust you people to remember it?

[GostHacked]

Yes. Actually it is. You're questioning her account because she didn't come forward with it right away. It's irrelevant why she didn't.

How am I apologizing for Jian's behaviour by making that statement? It's a legitimate question as to why she did not come forth at the time f the incident.

[cybercoma]

It has been explained numerous times here and elsewhere why women don't come forward when they're assaulted. If you were interested in understanding, then you would already. All of these questions and accusations about the victims takes the focus away from where it belongs: squarely on the perpetrator. Questioning the accusers, indeed implying that they are liars, deserved the abuse, or even wanted it, is exactly why they don't come forward with these accusations. Imagine for a moment knowing without a doubt that someone has been raped then criticizing her for what she was wearing, as though she brought on the attack herself. Can you even fathom how traumatizing that would be? Have you not even considered that a lot of these women internalize these situations and blame themselves already? And is that fair? Is it ever the victims fault? Sexual assault and rape are not a consequence. They are the result of the perpetrator's thoughts and actions alone. Don't beat and rape women. How hard is that to understand?

[cybercoma]

For all the emotion in Reva Seth's story, the facts are simple; they dated a few times, went to his place and got drunk and stoned, started to get it on, he finger banged her, she didn't like it and left without having intercourse.

What the hell is wrong with you? Seriously.

According to her account, he shoved his fingers into her vagina without her consent. That you can so blithely gloss over the issue of consenting to sexual activity absolutely disgusts me. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Moreover, if you're implying that she did consent, who the hell are you to tell a victim of sexual assault that she's wrong about her own consent?

This is exactly what was pointed to earlier in the article by Joanne Wright on Rabble. Patriarchal male privilege is so pervasive that you even think you can define for a woman whether or not she has given consent. Just so it's abundantly clear, since your arguments belie the fact that there's any possibility that you know this, women are people with their own thoughts, feelings, opinions, and destiny, in a word autonomy. They get to choose with whom, when, where, and how they engage in sexual activities. It is never ok to assume someone consents to sex and just force yourself upon them. That you feel the need to say she was drinking and smoking up with Jian, so she consented, despite her saying she doesn't, shows a disgusting disregard for not only consent itself, but a woman's ability to know and articulate whether or not she does in fact consent. This is rape culture and you are contributing to it.

Edited November 3, 2014 by cybercoma

[bush_cheney2004]

What the hell is wrong with you? Seriously.

According to her account, he shoved his fingers into her vagina without her consent. That you can so blithely gloss over the issue of consenting to sexual activity absolutely disgusts me. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Well, to be fair, I can't think of any time when such written or verbal vajayjay consent came from my "partner". How would that conversation and acknowledgment go ?

Partner #1: Excuse me, but may I please place my fingers in your vajajay ?

Partner #2: Yes you may...I consent to the placement of your finger(s) in my vajajay until such time that I withdraw such consent.

Partner #1: Thank you.

Edited November 3, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

I guess you're pretty sure that what you're doing is consented to. I guess if it wasn't, then you wouldn't have anything to say in your defense.

[bush_cheney2004]

I guess you're pretty sure that what you're doing is consented to. I guess if it wasn't, then you wouldn't have anything to say in your defense.

Right...so it gets pretty murky when it come to defining exactly what constitutes consent in the absence of clear verbal or written acknowledgement. I recall a SNL skit from many years ago wherein paper contracts were signed by singles at a bar stipulating exactly what kind of sexual behaviour was consented or not consented to.

[Michael Hardner]

Right...so it gets pretty murky when it come to defining exactly what constitutes consent in the absence of clear verbal or written acknowledgement.

They instruct people to clear up these ambiguities these days by asking for consent. Clear, simple, natural.... why not ?

[bush_cheney2004]

They instruct people to clear up these ambiguities these days by asking for consent. Clear, simple, natural.... why not ?

OK....so what does that actually look and sound like. Is there a form to sign....perhaps notarized ?

[Michael Hardner]

OK....so what does that actually look and sound like. Is there a form to sign....perhaps notarized ?

It's verbal.

[On Guard for Thee]

Well, to be fair, I can't think of any time when such written or verbal vajayjay consent came from my "partner". How would that conversation and acknowledgment go ?

Partner #1: Excuse me, but may I please place my fingers in your vajajay ?

Partner #2: Yes you may...I consent to the placement of your finger(s) in my vajajay until such time that I withdraw such consent.

Partner #1: Thank you.

Do you have a little trouble forming the real word or somehow?

[bush_cheney2004]

It's verbal.

Really ? So all partners request and receive verbal consent ? Forgive me, but I think not.

[cybercoma]

Oh pooooor you. It's so difficult to know when someone consents or not.

If you have so much difficulty understanding whether another person has consented or not, then perhaps you need to be explicit before inserting parts of your body into someone else's orifices. That's common sense for anyone who's not a filthy molester or rapist.

[bush_cheney2004]

Your personal attacks are irrelevant and contribute nothing to a discussion of what constitutes legal consent.

"Common sense" won't do here, or for this ex-CBC employee.

[bush_cheney2004]

Exactly what is consent to sexual activity, with or without alleged criminal assault ? This article expresses the obvious, but adds no clarity for what actually constitutes "express consent" in Canada:

..Nor is express consent at the outset of any sexual activity a complete answer for an alleged criminal assault. Ms. Leiper said certain provisions in the Criminal Code, such as sections 273.1 and 265, describe situations in which consent cannot be properly given. For example, consent is not obtained if the person engages in activity because the other person has taken advantage of a position of authority or trust. Consent is not obtained in law where it is given as a result of threats, fear of force, fraud or actual application of force. Also, consent in sexual cases must be ongoing. A person must be able to revoke consent, by words or conduct, even if initially he or she did consent to sexual activity at the outset. And if a complainant is incapable of expressing consent, the consent is gone.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/27/canadian-law-imposes-some-limits-on-freedom-to-consent-to-violent-sexual-activity/

Edited November 3, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[On Guard for Thee]

There are those who have poorly developed perceptive skills. Sometimes the symptoms involve a strange habit of concocting odd little words to describe parts of the human anatomy they are a little uncomfortable talking about.

[Michael Hardner]

Really ? So all partners request and receive verbal consent ? Forgive me, but I think not.

I don't think I said anything like that. Some are suggesting that it would be better if that happened, and many are following that advice.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't think I said anything like that. Some are suggesting that it would be better if that happened, and many are following that advice.

OK...fair enough. So we are left to ponder what the accused would actually need as an adequate defense vis-a-vis consent...and continous, "ongoing" consent, which curiously is more requisite in the case of BDSM compared to plain old boring, garden variety sexual intercourse.

[eyeball]

So we are left to ponder what the accused would actually need as an adequate defense vis-a-vis consent...and continous, "ongoing" consent, which curiously is more requisite in the case of BDSM compared to plain old boring, garden variety sexual intercourse.

You'll probably need it in writing after the dust from this settles. No doubt some bureaucrat, politician or a committee thereof will finally treat this as galvanizing event and send something down the pipe.

[bush_cheney2004]

You'll probably need it in writing after the dust from this settles. No doubt some bureaucrat, politician or a committee thereof will finally treat this as galvanizing event and send something down the pipe.

No doubt.....if "No means No", then clearly we must define when/how "Yes means Yes". I can point to several 'Merkin sources that develop this thought, but since we are "in Canada", I shall refrain from doing so.

[eyeball]

Why? Since when did you need consent to point out 'Merican sources on an issue? It sounds like JG is heading your way so these might well be coming into play if his extradition is requested.

[bush_cheney2004]

Why? Since when did you need consent to point out 'Merican sources on an issue? It sounds like JG is heading your way so these might well be coming into play if his extradition is requested.

I specifically want to avoid and cross border 'Murican law/practice contamination of this topic. Canadian laws apply.....

Edited November 3, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[eyeball]

Your's will too in the event of an extradition.

[Michael Hardner]

OK...fair enough. So we are left to ponder what the accused would actually need as an adequate defense vis-a-vis consent...and continous, "ongoing" consent, which curiously is more requisite in the case of BDSM compared to plain old boring, garden variety sexual intercourse.

Verbal consent likely wouldn't stand up in court, but it would prevent many misunderstandings early on.

[bush_cheney2004]

Your's will too in the event of an extradition.

Perhaps, but if and until that time comes, we can continue our analysis.

Broad acceptance (though not legally defined) of a BDSM "safe word" clearly defines when "No means No", i.e. consent has been revoked. So is/are there equivalent words or actions that constitute "Yes means Yes" ?