War Against ISIL

[eyeball]

Yes! Believe it or not, some people REALLY ARE stupid enough to think that 90 years of constant military and political meddling, and the hundreds of thousands of innocent people that foreigners have killed for oil over there has NOTHING AT ALL to do with why they dont like us.

Im not shittin ya!

Yabut the last 90 years is nothing compared to what Islam did to us from the 7th century up the Mufti. Clearly they had it coming.

[Rue]

I would expect Dre and Eye the giggle fest and the attempt to mistate the position you are mistating.

What some of us have in fact argued is that to understand Muslim extremism, one must engage in the history of violence in Islam and to do that properly, simply taking a snapshot of history with only a narrow time line as you two suggest is not helpful.

No one has stated as these two have inferred that colonialism did not help shape a newer form of Islamic violence but what some of us are in fact arguing is Muslim violence and extremism existed long before colonialism and therefore to try as you 2 to do and simply blame it all on colonialism is defective.

I will now provide some examples of how others believe we should look a little longer at the entire history of Islamic violence to get a better understanding on it and not the self serving restrictive limit you 2 want to impose:

http://www.meforum.org/2159/are-judaism-and-christianity-as-violent-as-islam

http://www.meforum.org/168/at-war-with-whom

Some of us are quite aware that The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule and that colonialists did not write the Koran.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

This is why we argue tracing the violence back and understanding it is an unbroken chain is crucial to understanding the extemist interpretation of Islam that fuels that violence and to this day has not changed.

For exampleIslam still has not evolved past the strict instructions of Allah to perpetrate violence or special taxes against anyone who is not a Muslim (S. 2:191-193, 4:89, 5:33, 8:12, 8:39, 9:29, 48:29).

Mainstream Islam ontains to maintain there is no distinction between state and Sharia law and the defining of non Muslims in discriminatory terms.

Islam is not just a religion. It is also and has always been a political ideology precisely because there is no distinction between state government of the Muslim community and God’s government and this is why other than a Sharia law nation no other government is considered legitimate.

This is the very reason all non Muslims are defined as dhimmi in the Islamic world. This is why Muslim extremists believe there can be only one Muslim world wide government. This is why Muslims who call themselves even moderates will not ever accept the concept of a Jewish government or state. It flies in the faith of what their religion has said.

Muslim extremism is still quoting and following the same code of violence Muslims followed prior to colonialism and the very words in the constitutions of ISIL, Hamas, Intifadah, Hezbollah, Al Quaeda and the Palestinian Authority and Fatah constitutions use those concepts including these beliefs, i.e., :

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful" (Surah 9:5).

Today the above is placed in the constitutions of Hamas and all the other Muslim terror cells that since Zionists won't convert to Islam, since Christians and non believers will not convert to Islam, they must die.

Regarding violence against Jews and Christians, the Quran says,

"Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the last day, who do not forbid what God and his messenger have forbidden, and who do not embrace the true faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued" (Surah 9:29).

Those words are still quoted and these are the words used to say, if Jews and Christians do not accept inferior status and pay a dhimmi tax and live in subjection to Muslims as second-class citizens as the alternative to conversion, they also die.

The Koran also states to its own people:

"Believers, why is it that when you are told: ‘March in the cause of God,’ you linger slothfully in the land? Are you content with this life in preference to the life to come? . . . If you do not go to war, he [God] will punish you sternly, and will replace you by other men" (Surah 9:38-39).

The fact is much in Islam in the Koran calls for war and violence and intolerance and unless we question such beliefs and encourage Muslims to and denounce such passages no differently than how we Jews and Christians have evolved past our religious violence, not just Muslim extremists but every day Muslims will be used in the war now coming from Islamic cells who do not want to relinquish their control of Muslims to the Westerners.

[GostHacked]

Hey did the Jews kill Jesus? How many acts of violence in the Bible or the Torah?

[Rue]

To answer your questions;

1-No I was watching t.v.;

2-to understand the evolution of Judaism and Jewish thought it would be illogical to ignore its tribal past when battles raged and the Bible

depicted these wars not to mention God as angry and vengeful

Again Ghost you can not understand the point being made because if you did, by tracing Jewish history back to its original roots which were full of violence we can get an understanding as to how say compared to Christian and Muslim cultures, Jewish culture chose to evolve past certain violent tendencies. each of these three cultures has evolved of course in different manners and sometimes comparable manners.

Your comments didn't address the issues raised.

If your clumsy point is that Christianity and Judaism have violent pasts no one has argued they did not.

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,

Please stay on topic.

Take the off-topic nitter-nattering to a different thread.

Ch. A.

[Hudson Jones]

To answer your questions;

1-No I was watching t.v.;

2-to understand the evolution of Judaism and Jewish thought it would be illogical to ignore its tribal past when battles raged and the Bible

depicted these wars not to mention God as angry and vengeful

Again Ghost you can not understand the point being made because if you did, by tracing Jewish history back to its original roots which were full of violence we can get an understanding as to how say compared to Christian and Muslim cultures, Jewish culture chose to evolve past certain violent tendencies. each of these three cultures has evolved of course in different manners and sometimes comparable manners.

Your comments didn't address the issues raised.

If your clumsy point is that Christianity and Judaism have violent pasts no one has argued they did not.

This is not about religion. Religion has been interpreted into many different meanings and has been used to justify many actions for a long time. There are many types of Christians. There are many types of Muslims. There are many types of Jews.

Zionism is a problem, much like Wahabism/Salafism (ISIL) is. They have morphed and devolved into ideals that excuse the violation of human rights of others, in order to achieve their goals. Zionism not only has had a violent past, but they continue to be violent and violate international laws that prohibit violence against civilians to this day. Case in point: The Gaza massacre, where over 1400 civilians, including 500 children were killed by Israel in under a month. Zionists will do whatever they can to try to justify these inhumane behaviour. Why? Because this is what Zionism is about and this is why Zionism is a problem. A problem that needs to be wiped out.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Hudson Jones

[bush_cheney2004]

...but Imperialism and the legacy of Imperialism is pretty much OK....cause changing it would mean...well...let's not go there.

Easier to target Zionism.

[jbg]

Kind of like how ISIL is uniting Syrians and Iraqis? Cool.

Bringing this here where it belongs for response.

From their conduct, they seem to seek the one kind of peace that's real and permanent in that part of the world; the peace of the grave.

[Rue]

H Jones this thread as I wanted it to, has exposed you and your agenda. The more you respond now the more you undermine what you were in the past trying to deny-your hatred and stereotyping.

So now, let's summarize, Muslim extremism is not about Islam, all Zionists are poo poo heads.

Lol

Yah that settles it then.

[Rue]

Bush I am inhumane. You heard Hudson Jones.Why?Because I engaged in an attack against Hamas. I just woke up one morning and said, I feel inhumane and hey I need to attack Palestinians in Gaza. Now how I and every other Zionist in the world physically got over there I do not know.

Or maybe he means I used my extensive ZIonist bank and weapons network to send weapons and money to Israel.

See me and the other big Zees or Zionists we just sit around planning and assisting the murder of Palestinians. Everyone of us. He's on to us.

Now of course if you are not up on the couched references to how all ZIonists are inhumane and how we operate in one massive Borg like collective wiping out Palestinians, like Mr. Jones so I want to explain further.

We use bar mitzvahs, weddings, funerals as a cover to meet. We use Hollywood movies as code messages to call out Zionists.

Sometimes we use hand signals. Do you remember at the end of the Carol Burnett show how she used to tug on her ear. That was a call to arm to Zionists.

How about Red Skelton, remember him. When he said God Bless at the end of his show, it was a call to Zionists.

You remember Bonanza. Well the Ponderosa was a code word for Israel and remember how it went on fire? Well come on. You know Hoss was a hidden code for General Sharon when he was young and big but not as fat, Michael Landon for Yithak Rabin, Pa Cartwright was Ben Gurion and Adam represented the first Israelis who died in the first war in 1948.

Then we had the MaryTyler Moore Show with Rhoda as the coded word for Golda Maer and Mary Tyler Moore the embedded Zionist spy taking orders from her and controlling the gentile media represented by the evil American Jew Ed Anser and the dumb gentileTed and his equally retarded gentile girlfriend. Need I explain further?

Don't forget Lost In Space. They were wondering Jews with Zachary Smith as the typical Jew as Eye would say and the Robot representing Zionism, the creation of technology to allow these Jews to conquer the world and hold captive the gentile peoples as symbolized by Billy Mummy (Adam) and Angela Cartwright (Eve) as they went on an expansionist campaign conquering the Middle East (space).

Well duh Star Trek was about Zionism. I mean for Gawd'ssake William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy were Jews and represented the Zionists who took over the 'Star Shipnterprise" = Western technology to engage in Zionist expansionism.

Oh sure you that the Ferengi were Jews. Well sure they were the Zionists who all along controlled everyone. The Arab Peoples, they were those security guards always killed off in the first five minutes of the show. Or they were the bad guys of the week sort of like Batman(Zionist and notice his secret identity in the real world) and Robin (the young Zionist) working with Commisisioner Gordon (dupe gentile) to control Gotham (the world) . The Joker, Riddler, Catwoman, Mr. Freeze, encoded messages for false flag operations.

Remember when they would climb up buildings and guest stars would open up windows? Those were coded messages as to the next false flag attacks.

Yogi Bear and Boo, another symbolic coded reference to the cooperation between Zionists and gentiles in stealing from Arab peoples (the Jellystone Park visitors, the picnic baskets represented their innocence prior to Yogi and Boo the Zionists robbing them of it).

Lassie? A coded symbol for the control by Zionists over unsuspecting gentiles.

Likewise of course with the Munsters. Clearly Zionists in a world of Gentiles, they were able to impose their vile standards on the gentiles represented by the "normal" world and their "normal niece". I mean how much more evil Zionist can you get then Grampa and remember his hook nose?

Finally I mean come on you remember the Beverly Hillbillies? There were the sinister Zionist cabal bankers symbolized by Mr.Drysdale. The Clampetts were the unsuspecting gentiles duped and controlled by these banks. Jane Hathway represented Mossad.

Jethro? A clear reference to the US Armed forces and Sonny Drysdale, clearly a reference to the homosexual Zionist.

Now one last thing. Gomer Pyle was a Zionist and a code for how they infiltrated the US military.

Aunt Bee? Another coded word for Golda Maer.

I know you already figured out Kojak was sending coded message to Zionists because you remember he always used to scream out t "Sapperstein!" not just Crocker? Remember Sapperstein? Pretty subtle call to arms wasn't it.

Also if you want to see how Zionists controlled the US watch old re-runs of Gunsmoke. Festus is the Zionist. You will see he really runs the show but sort of like a cowboy version of Fagan.

Vanna White-a Zionist. She manipulates words played out daily on our t.v. screens which are codes to the ZIonists.

You know who though was the most inhumane of Zionists. Well it has to be the Zionist puppet, Taylor Swift. I mean you do know her real name is Amy Cohen right?

Edited January 15, 2015 by Rue

[Big Guy]

Well, its been six months of hundreds of coalition bombings and our side says that "the advance of ISIS has been stopped". That does not sound very productive. The Americans have just stated that they will be sending about 400 soldiers to "train Syrian rebels". the USA already has about 3,000 "trainers" in Iraq , training Iraqi and Kurdish soldiers. It is expected that other coalition members (read Canada) will be asked to also send "trainers".

http://time.com/3671195/isis-syria-us-army-training/

The first hurdle will be trying to find the good guy rebels from the bad guy rebels. Right now the good guys are the ones fighting Assad and ISIS, the bad guys are the ones fighting Assad but not fighting ISIS. Lots of luck. I hope they get that straight before giving them guns and explosives! Assad must be laughing out loud.

The orders for the "trainers" are not to shoot unless shot at. Lotsa luck.

This conflict is progressing exactly along the same lines as the other wars that the West has gotten itself mired into. If Canada decides to start sending in boots on the ground then start gathering those body bags - again.

Does anybody really believe that this latest expedition will end up any better than any previous one?

How stupid can we be?

Edited January 17, 2015 by Big Guy

[Michael Hardner]

This conflict is progressing exactly along the same lines as the other wars that the West has gotten itself mired into. If Canada decides to start sending in boots on the ground then start gathering those body bags - again.

Does anybody really believe that this latest expedition will end up any better than any previous one?

How stupid can we be?

Which ones are you referring to ? Afghanistan ? If so then my question is what should the response be ?

I guess we could just let enclaves of horror continue to exist by only putting the least effort possible forward to keep them in check, and hopefully destabilize them but we didn't do that for white regimes in the past. Would we have been so willing to give up in those conflicts ?

[Big Guy]

To Michael - All of these conflicts are regional between people of the same culture, language and heritage. I believe these are civil wars which should have been allowed to be settled by them. We may not like what it ends like but that is their right. All of these problems began when the West decided to go after the oil resources in the region. We have changed the balance of power and have taken sides in civil wars ending in unsustainable "peace".

I do not think it is too late. Admit that our policy there has been a failure. Get out and allow the inhabitants to fight it out. Sell arms to those who we think are good guys if other outsiders are providing arms for the bad guys.

What makes us the policemen of the world? We pick and choose depending on our economic interests. Boko Haram has been creating havoc in Nigeria. They are killing as many as is ISIS and intend to establish their own state. We have been smart enough to stay out of that civil war.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/boko-haram-nigerian-militant-group-s-attacks-on-the-rise-1.2912678

With the collapse of the Soviet Union, the United States decided to be the sheriff of the solar system and started to throw its weight around. Good for them. They seem to be proud of being a warrior nation and celebrating the return of body bags from all over the world. I believe we have a right to our own foreign policy based on what the majority of Canadians want - not Americans, not any religious groups, not any group which might place its nationality and religion and allegiance over that of Canada.

Right now we have no foreign policy and that vacuum is taking us deeper into conflicts that are not our concern.

[Michael Hardner]

To Michael - All of these conflicts are regional between people of the same culture, language and heritage. I believe these are civil wars which should have been allowed to be settled by them.

OK, WW2 as well ?

[dre]

OK, WW2 as well ?

Don't think that was a civil war mike lol

[Big Guy]

You are asking for comparisons. To go that direction we would have to start to review our particular perceptions and attitudes to that war. Libraries are filled with different peoples views and any time it pops up here it is kicked around ad nauseam. I am not prepared to do that or start arguing WW2. Apparently you feel there are parallels here and that is your right.

You asked my opinion and I have shared it with you.

[dre]

You are asking for comparisons. To go that direction we would have to start to review our particular perceptions and attitudes to that war. Libraries are filled with different peoples views and any time it pops up here it is kicked around ad nauseam. I am not prepared to do that or start arguing WW2. Apparently you feel there are parallels here and that is your right.

You asked my opinion and I have shared it with you.

Well he provided a REALLY bad comparison without thinking it through. The Germans were rolling across Europe sacking our allies and trading partners. We had a clear and compelling national interest in stopping them.

With ISIS its nowhere near as clear, in fact we may actually be acting against our own interests. We are basically using our military to force 20+ million Sunni arabs into accepting being ruled by Iranian backed Shia governments in Iraq and Syria. They are not happy about it, and its never going to work, and its going to create a lot of resentment which damages our security.

A better approach would be to let ISIL keep Sunni strongholds where they are often very popular and let Turkey, Syria, and Iraq stop them from expanding beyond those areas.

[bush_cheney2004]

Hooray for an independent Canadian foreign policy free of warmongering American influence. We know that works best....like in....ummm...Rwanda !

[Big Guy]

The war against ISIL continues. The USA has flown about 1,000 sorties in Iraq and a couple in Syria. Canada has flown about 100 and dropped some bombs as instructed to do. The Israelis have dropped a few in Syria and some folks are wondering what Israel is getting involved for. This "bombing support only" expedition has just had the first Canadian/ISIL exchange of ground fire;

http://news.yahoo.com/canada-special-forces-clash-iraq-195504092.html

So, REMEMBER, we were guaranteed a few safe bombing runs, no Canadian troops on the ground but are now exchanging fire with ISIL forces on the ground. BUT it is only our special forces!!!

Just like Afghanistan. American military commanders were asked how long this battle to negate ISIL may take and agree that it will take a minimum of a "FEW YEARS"! Hello!?!?!

Here we go again folks. Just in for "stabilizing the area" and warrior Harper is leading us into this latest trap. I guess he figures by the time the body bags start coming home and down highway 401, he will have lost the election and then - who cares?

We are being played like a fine, fine fiddle!

[Big Guy]

Oh and dre, in response to your views on the comparison to WW2, I am really reluctant to comment and extend the comparison but I do know that it is commonly agreed that if that attempted bombing on July 20 1944 in His Wolf's Lair in East Prussia which (if successful) would have assassinated Hitler and his top commanders then the war would have changed at that point.

In these battles, we keep wiping out a Hitler here and a Hitler there and a whole bunch of top dog Hitlers everywhere but another one pops up in their place. Looks to me like this is a whole different ballgame.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Big Guy

[bush_cheney2004]

Interesting.....Canada's Operation Impact is a stark difference from the 2003 ruling government's sentiment that dropping bombs on people in Iraq is only OK when the UN says so:

Former prime minister Jean Chretien in 2003:

"If military action in Iraq is launched without a new U.N. resolution, Canada will not participate."

[Big Guy]

So we have a new notorious celebrity now identified as "Jihadi John". He stars in the latest ISIS video with two Japanese hostages. Japan does not have a military to assist in the war against ISIS but has pledged $200 million to that cause.

Jihadi John declares that ISIS will execute the hostages unless Japan gives ISIS $200 million - the same amount it has pledged to the anti-ISIS coalition.

These ISIS guys sure seem to be media savvy.

[Derek 2.0]

So we have a new notorious celebrity now identified as "Jihadi John". He stars in the latest ISIS video with two Japanese hostages. Japan does not have a military to assist in the war against ISIS but has pledged $200 million to that cause.

To clear up a few things on your narrative/rant….the Japanese do in fact have quite a large and modern military (that is not involved in the fight against ISIS), more importantly though is to make a distinction on the pledged $200 million from the Japanese government, which will be a contribution towards humanitarian aid, to be delivered in the various refugees camps full of those displaced by ISIS…..not in aiding the "anti-ISIS coalition"........

[Big Guy]

I believe that I stated "Japan does not have a military to assist in the war against Isis ..." in my narrative/rant as a very clear description. My point was that Japan is unable to participate militarily. I am sure that you know that the Japanese military consists of; Japan Ground Self-Defense Force (Army), Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (Navy) and the Japan Air Self-Defense Force (Air Force). And I am sure that you understand that the reason for that specific naming is "Self Defense" and cannot be deployed outside of Japan. You might admit that condition to verify that "Japan does not have a military to assist in the war against ISIS". Unless of course Japan uses the old American "preemptive defensive attack" excuse but would still have trouble explaining shooting offshore.

As to how the $200 million pledge would be spent, I suggest that it would either assist ISIS or would not assist ISIS. I suggest that it would not assist ISIS and since the coalition is also not assisting ISIS that they would both be working towards the same goal. But that might be picking at insignificant details that have little to do with the intent of the post.

Thank you for reading my post and your views on my narrative/rant.

[Argus]

With ISIS its nowhere near as clear, in fact we may actually be acting against our own interests. We are basically using our military to force 20+ million Sunni arabs into accepting being ruled by Iranian backed Shia governments in Iraq and Syria. They are not happy about it, and its never going to work, and its going to create a lot of resentment which damages our security.

So if they kill, say, a million people, do we just ignore that? If they start invading other countries, spreading out, killing more people, should we just shrug? How many countries do we let ISIL or ISIS or whatever they're calling themselves conquer? Do we wait until they're at the gates of Vienna to object?