Holocaust survivors condemn Israel for 'Gaza massacre,'

[Black Dog]

site: http://sultanknish.blogspot.ca/2014/08/there-are-no-self-hating-jews.html#sthash.qLjJz6je.dpuf

"Jewish anti-Semites hate Jews for most of the same reasons that his fellow non-Jewish anti-Semites do. He may focus in on certain perceived Jewish traits that he despises, he may feel injured in some way by Jews as a group, but these and other examples are instances of viewing Jews as an "Other". By viewing Jews as an "Other", the Jewish anti-Semite concedes that he is no longer a Jew, no matter how much Brooklyn there is in his voice or how many Jewish authors line his bookshelf. The most common anti-Semitism is the explicit perception of Jews as an "Other" who are seperatists and disrupt the larger society by clannishly holding themselves apart from it for their own agenda. The left's expressions of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism have always consisted of this same critique. And the most common Jewish anti-Semites today are those of the left. The Jews who publicly beat their breasts in the pages of the New York Times or on Twitter about how "conflicted" they feel because of what Israel is doing in Gaza are torn between two identities. One is a subordinate Jewish identity and the other is the dominant identity of the left. The left views Jews and the Jewish State as an "Other" and they see the scraps of their Jewish identity as an "Other". A cruel murderous Nazi-like "Other" who senselessly kills children out of fanatical nationalism.

...

The so-called "Self-Hating Jew" has stepped out of Jewish history. He remains behind only as an antagonist in the dim recollections of the descendants of the people he has tried to destroy. He may protest that his hatred is founded on some pure source of what Jewish ethics ought to be, but it is not possible for an individual to define Jewishness on his own terms in a way that will last across time.

The self-hating Jew is not a Jew. He is not part of the Jewish civilization moving through time. He may have a Jewish past, but he has no Jewish future.

His malice causes damage in the present, but it is the frustrated act of a mortal man who knows that he has no future, that he will leave behind no legacy that a century of time will not wash away as thoroughly as the debris in the gutter.

There are no self-hating Jews. There are Jews who hate the Jewish People. Their hatred excludes them from the thing that they hate. By Othering Jews, they only Other themselves. Their books, their petitions, their jokes and their protests, their boat trips to Gaza and their letters from 199 Rabbis Against the Occupation and all the other symptoms of their hatred exist in the present, but not the past or the future. In the totality of Jewish civilization across time, they are already gone. "

That's an awful lot of words for something that can be summed up in three: "No true Scotsman."

[Rue]

Yes and at the next Gay Pride day someone can march at the event with a sign saying NO TRUE SCOTSMAN. Hey Ho Hey Ho Israel has got to go.

Oh this is fun, Tee hee. Giggling at minorities. Hee hee.

[Black Dog]

Yes and at the next Gay Pride day someone can march at the event with a sign saying NO TRUE SCOTSMAN. Hey Ho Hey Ho Israel has got to go.

Oh this is fun, Tee hee. Giggling at minorities. Hee hee.

So I take it you're unfamiliar with the fallacy to which I'm referring?

[GostHacked]

I am a white heterosexual male. Seems like I will be in the minority soon.

[Rue]

Yes Black Dog I am aware they did not wear underwear.

[Rue]

Ghiost call yourself what you want, I wouldn't turn my back on you,

[Black Dog]

Yes Black Dog I am aware they did not wear underwear.

I like these short posts buy you. So much easier to skip.

[marcus]

Except self defense is not evil. Hiding rockets in schools and hospitals: pure evil.

The self-defense excuse is pure B.S. What Israel is doing is collective punishment.

You know it, I know it and everyone else knows it.

[marcus]

Ghiost call yourself what you want, I wouldn't turn my back on you,

Lucky for him that he's not a Palestinian child.

[PIK]

I wonder how many of these so called palestines would be against hamas and what they are doing. But since they would be killed for saying it ,we will never know.

[Moonlight Graham]

Any ideology like Wahhabism/Salafism and Zionism which violate another group of people's basic human rights in order to achieve its own selfish agenda is wrong and should be eradicated.

But Zionism is a big umbrella term. 5 Zionists can have 5 completely different viewpoints on how they view what Zionism should be, how a Jewish country should be run and what land it should consist of, and to the exclusion of who (if any). Zionism in itself does not violate anyone's rights. The current state of Israel does not encompass the term "Zionism" in its entirety. You can be a Zionist and be against 99% of Israel's policies.

[Moonlight Graham]

Oh look who's gonna engage in inversion with moi. Lol. Bring it on. Bring on the name calling.

source:http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-wistrich-f04.htm

"Anti-Zionism has become the most dangerous and effective form of anti- Semitism in our time, through its systematic delegitimization, defamation, and demonization of Israel. Although not a priori anti-Semitic, the calls to dismantle the Jewish state, whether they come from Muslims, the Left, or the radical Right, increasingly rely on an anti-Semitic stereotypization of classic themes, such as the manipulative "Jewish lobby," the Jewish/Zionist "world conspiracy," and Jewish/Israeli "warmongers." One major driving force of this anti-Zionism/anti-Semitism is the transformation of the Palestinian cause into a "holy war"; another source is anti-Americanism linked with fundamentalist Islamism. In the current context, classic conspiracy theories, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are enjoying a spectacular revival. The common denominator of the new anti-Zionism has been the systematic effort to criminalize Israeli and Jewish behavior, so as to place it beyond the pale of civilized and acceptable conduct."

Go on Eye you and Dre can attack me all you want. Lol. Wuttza mattuh Eye dis Joo won't agree with you?

What a ridiculous argument that person makes.

[Moonlight Graham]

Oh guess what Martin Luther King said:

“And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is anti-Semitism…The anti-Semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the anti-Semite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just ‘anti-Zionist’!”

Golly.

Sorry I don't agree with Martin. Appealing to a respected person's argument does not make you right. Pretty sure anti-zionist jews aren't anti-semites, just like i never met a black person who was racist against himself.

[Hudson Jones]

Sorry I don't agree with Martin. Appealing to a respected person's argument does not make you right. Pretty sure anti-zionist jews aren't anti-semites, just like i never met a black person who was racist against himself.

MLK never said that. MLK would never support Zionism, because it would go against what he fought against, which are inequality and racism.

The so-called quote has already been debunked. The Zionist PR machine will stoop to any level, including making up quotes by those with moral credibility in order to win points. Even in the situation where something has been debunked, they continue to repeat.

"Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend" is an open letter attributed to Martin Luther King, Jr. that expressed support for Zionism and declared that "anti-Zionist is inherently anti-Semitic, and ever will be so."[1] The letter has been widely quoted on the internet and in a speech of the politician Ariel Sharon. The proclaimed sources of the letter, like an appearance in the Saturday Review from August 1967, do not exist. The first known reference to the text appeared 1999 (many years after the death of Martin Luther King, Jr.).

It's important to note what some of the most important moral figures have to say about Jewish nationalism, Zionism and the treatment of Palestinians:

Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs... Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home”

― Mahatma Gandhi

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties.”

― Albert Einstein

""If Zionism means the right of the Jewish people to seize territory and deny the Palestinian people the right to self-determination, we condemn it."

― Nelson Mandela

In short the zionist argument to justify Israel's present occupation of Arab Palestine has no intelligent or legal basis in history.

― Malcolm X

Edited August 27, 2014 by Hudson Jones

[Topaz]

We all know the tensions between these two, but as along as the West and others give aid to Israel and Russia, N. Korea, China or whom ever is helping the other side, this will never end. I can't believe when the Prez of the US, talks about the killing of civilians, when they are partly to blame for it.

[bush_cheney2004]

We all know the tensions between these two, but as along as the West and others give aid to Israel

The U.S. is obligated to give foreign aid to Israel, Egypt, and Jordan because of peace treaties from the 1970's.

Is Canada going to pay for it instead ? No ?......thought so.

[dre]

But Zionism is a big umbrella term. 5 Zionists can have 5 completely different viewpoints on how they view what Zionism should be, how a Jewish country should be run and what land it should consist of, and to the exclusion of who (if any). Zionism in itself does not violate anyone's rights. The current state of Israel does not encompass the term "Zionism" in its entirety. You can be a Zionist and be against 99% of Israel's policies.

Maybe but all 5 of those viewpoints believe there should be a jewish state SOMEWHERE that is going to displace SOMEONE. Unless maybe one of them believes in trying to establish a jewish state in an uninhabited area (like ant arctica or the moon) then yes... violating the rights of others are part of the ideology.

[eyeball]

Sorry I don't agree with Martin. Appealing to a respected person's argument does not make you right. Pretty sure anti-zionist jews aren't anti-semites, just like i never met a black person who was racist against himself.

I still think the fact that anti-Palestinians are also anti-Semitic needs a little light shone upon it from time to time.

Somedays I could care less if the whole region was turned to glass but I recognize that's probably not too constructive. Neutrality with a view to helping if and when they're ready to stop fighting is the proper course. I don't think either side is ready.

[Moonlight Graham]

Maybe but all 5 of those viewpoints believe there should be a jewish state SOMEWHERE that is going to displace SOMEONE. Unless maybe one of them believes in trying to establish a jewish state in an uninhabited area (like ant arctica or the moon) then yes... violating the rights of others are part of the ideology.

I disagree. If Jews bought some land legitimately (as many did pre-WWI) and bought enough to create a small block of cities/towns and establish a community of their own, and then democratically wanted to be separate from whatever recognized country they were in to become their own state then that wouldn't be displacing anyone or violating anyone's rights. If Jews did the same somewhere in Canada it would be the same thing. Lots of groups/areas/nations have separated legitimately and become their own nation-state throughout the last 100 years.

[Moonlight Graham]

Neutrality with a view to helping if and when they're ready to stop fighting is the proper course. I don't think either side is ready.

Well, there are some very wrong actions taken on both sides so I don't believe in being neutral. We should pressure all sides towards peace, and punish when a side defies basic international law and human rights. But i have no faith in the governments of the US or Canada doing so properly because they'll proven massive failures at it over & over again. They support positions for their own political & geostrategic interests and don't act based on what is the right thing to do or based on what international laws they've signed.

[eyeball]

I can't say I disagree. If there is a government anywhere on Earth that has the moral or ethical background to stick it's dingus in this hornet's nest without there being some ulterior motive for doing so I'm not aware of it.

[dre]

I disagree. If Jews bought some land legitimately (as many did pre-WWI) and bought enough to create a small block of cities/towns and establish a community of their own, and then democratically wanted to be separate from whatever recognized country they were in to become their own state then that wouldn't be displacing anyone or violating anyone's rights. If Jews did the same somewhere in Canada it would be the same thing. Lots of groups/areas/nations have separated legitimately and become their own nation-state throughout the last 100 years.

I dont know of any mainstream zionist plan to do that, so its unlikely that any of your five hypothetical zionists are going to say that. You can find some diversity of opinion in virtually ANY group, but the predominant belief set is in the basic definition youll find pretty much everywhere you look.

Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת, translit. Tsiyonoot) is a nationalist movement of Jews and Jewish culture that supports the creation of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the Land of Israel

The "land of israel" is not realestate they plan to buy in Canada. Its a very specific place. Eretz Yisrael... which comprises most of what is known as the southern levant.

Since theres no significant section of Zionism that want to establish a state anywhere else, and since its impossible to establish this state without the massive disposession of other peoples homelands, I think the statement you responded to is pretty fair.

[Moonlight Graham]

I dont know of any mainstream zionist plan to do that, so its unlikely that any of your five hypothetical zionists are going to say that. You can find some diversity of opinion in virtually ANY group, but the predominant belief set is in the basic definition youll find pretty much everywhere you look.

The "land of israel" is not realestate they plan to buy in Canada. Its a very specific place. Eretz Yisrael... which comprises most of what is known as the southern levant.

Fair enough, I guess you're right.

Put that way, any plan to take over the vast majority that is now Israel/West Bank/Gaza is indeed displacing Arabs/Palestinians. It's morally and legally an undefendable movement under those goals (now achieved). I think Jews should have a homeland in the area, but they certainly should not have claim to the vast swaths of land they now occupy through Israel.

They continue to creep perpetually into the West Bank with settlements, and will inevitably annex that land when the opportunity arises through some crisis just as they have other land. This is not a movement looking for peace or fairness, if the current land occupied by Israel is sought. IMO the land should be cut in half, 50% to Palestinians, 50% to Israel...close to the 1947 partition plan rejected by Arabs, but one must remember that the 1947 plan was a huge loss of land at the time for Palestinians/Arabs in the region and completely unfair to them.

[marcus]

Excellent letter by some leading Turkish Jewish intellectuals--at once rightly denouncing the racist expectation that they must publicly exonerate themselves from the atrocities of Israel (the same way that racist Islamophobes demand 1.3 billion plus Muslims exonerate themselves from the barbarities of Al-Qaeda et al) and equally denouncing the militaristic expansionism of Israel--they rightly equate the barbarism of "the Islamic State" with that of the "Jewish State" and declare: "In the same way the people of Turkey cannot be held responsible for the barbarity of what the Islamic State [of Iraq and Levent, ISIL] does because a number of Turks are among its fighters, the Jewish community of Turkey cannot be held responsible for what the state of Israel does. It is racism to hold a whole people responsible for the actions of a state and we wish to declare that we are opposed to this."

Turkey's Jewish intellectuals denounce being targeted over Israel's Gaza assault

[eyeball]

As an atheist I have to say being called an anti-Semite by an anti-Semite is a bit of a hoot. It's like they aim to go right over their own head.