Why Islam is dangerous

[?Impact]

Jesus took all of that away,

Read your Luke 16:17, Matthew 5:17-19, John 7:19

[DogOnPorch]

We've been over this already. Jesus said: I come not to end the old laws but to fulfill them. Meaning, you can keep your old laws as long as they don't mess with mine: Go and do thou likewise (The Golden Rule).

So stone that adulterer...but stone yourself at the same time.

[?Impact]

We've been over this already.

Read your Luke 16:17, and get back to me.

[Guest]

Provide an example of Christians stoning folks. Will it be Uganda?

I believe most Christian militias have modernized, using machetes and guns when killing non-believers.

I don't understand why people always use the Old Testament to justify what the Koran says. Jesus took all of that away, there is a New Testament, no more stonings, no more warring with their neighbors, obey the Golden Rule, "those who live by the sword will die by the sword".....etc.

There is no New Testament equivalent in the Koran. This is the problem. Christians can easily show this difference/change in thinking. Muslims cannot.

No, Christians who cherry pick are ignoring Jesus, not following him....but that's a good thing.

I am all for any religious adherent ignoring, watering down, cherry picking, paraphrasing or replacing the messages in scripture with those that match modern secular humanist values. In this thread we have all read many examples of barbaric Christian and Islamic scriptures that most have found a way to ignore, re-interpret or explain away. That's good. Not as good as leaving supernatural beliefs behind, but better than fundamentalism.

The problem I have is with the few who keep harping on the idea that Islam is bad, Christianity is good when there is no justification for either. In reality, bad things are bad, good things are good. Don't condemn Muslim misogyny or homophobia but defend less severe Christian examples. This 'gotta support the team' BS just doesn't make sense.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Guest

[DogOnPorch]

I believe most Christian militias have modernized, using machetes and guns when killing non-believers.

No, Christians who cherry pick are ignoring Jesus, not following him....but that's a good thing.

I am all for any religious adherent ignoring, watering down, cherry picking, paraphrasing or replacing the messages in scripture with those that match modern secular humanist values. In this thread we have all read many examples of barbaric Christian and Islamic scriptures that most have found a way to ignore, re-interpret or explain away.

The problem I have is with the few who keep harping on the idea that Islam is bad, Christianity is good when there is no justification for either. In reality, bad things are bad, good things are good. Don't condemn Muslim misogyny or homophobia but defend less severe Christian examples. This 'gotta support the team' BS just doesn't make sense.

Again: provide examples. I can provide numerous re: Islam.

[DogOnPorch]

I believe most Christian militias have modernized, using machetes and guns when killing non-believers.

No, Christians who cherry pick are ignoring Jesus, not following him....but that's a good thing.

I am all for any religious adherent ignoring, watering down, cherry picking, paraphrasing or replacing the messages in scripture with those that match modern secular humanist values. In this thread we have all read many examples of barbaric Christian and Islamic scriptures that most have found a way to ignore, re-interpret or explain away. That's good. Not as good as leaving supernatural beliefs behind, but better than fundamentalism.

The problem I have is with the few who keep harping on the idea that Islam is bad, Christianity is good when there is no justification for either. In reality, bad things are bad, good things are good. Don't condemn Muslim misogyny or homophobia but defend less severe Christian examples. This 'gotta support the team' BS just doesn't make sense.

What did Jesus say about the OT laws?

[Guest]

What did Jesus say about the OT laws?

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

[Guest]

What did Jesus say about the OT laws?

Time and a half for the first 4 hours, double time after that.

[Argus]

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Old Testament. Not relevant. No one is doing it. On the other hand, you don't have to look hard to find Muslims who believe in beheadings and casting terror.

[Argus]

The problem I have is with the few who keep harping on the idea that Islam is bad, Christianity is good when there is no justification for either.

Just everyday life and observance of what Muslims are doing all around the world, which I guess doesn't count, huh?

[dialamah]

I don't understand why people always use the Old Testament to justify what the Koran says. Jesus took all of that away, there is a New Testament, no more stonings, no more warring with their neighbors, obey the Golden Rule, "those who live by the sword will die by the sword".....etc.

There is no New Testament equivalent in the Koran. This is the problem. Christians can easily show this difference/change in thinking. Muslims cannot.

I don't understand why people keep insisting that everybody in Christendom follow the exact same rules. Christians have historically, and some still do, ignored the biblical teachings of peace, tolerance and acceptance. Christians in Africa currently kill gay people; Christians in Asia attempt to torture people into converting, and sometimes kill them. Christian sects worldwide engage in pedophilia, child marriage and polygamy. Christians in the Middle East and Africa also engage in FGM. Christians in America and Canada refuse to serve gay people and sometimes beat or kill them; Christians support laws that eliminate a woman's right to abortion and sometimes attack or kill abortion providers; Christians support women's "modest dress" and subservience to men in their personal life and in their churches; Christians support slut shaming, and blaming female victims of rape. It's disingenuous to claim that Christians hold some moral high ground because currently most of them in your country don't do those things. Your country is not representative of every single Christian belief and practice around the world.

Unless you refuse to accept it, Islam and the qu'ran also teach peace, tolerance and acceptance. Unless you refuse to accept it, Muslims as a whole do not support child marriage, or pedophilia, or even wife beating.

Its true that in many ways, countries in the Middle East and Africa are less progressive than we in the West; because they are mostly Muslim people assume that Islam must be at fault. What they fail to realize is that Christians in these areas behave very similarly because so much of it is culturally based rather than religiously based. Religion is used as the rationalization, whether its the bible, or the qu'ran.

I've said more than once that currently Islam extremism is a problem around the world, because it is. I've said that culturally we're ahead of the ME and Africa (and many other countries) when it comes to equal rights for all people.

But demonizing ONE specific group for certain practices is one of the most abhorrent pastimes we humans are capable of. It led to Canada taking away propery and interring Japanese; it led to widespread support to marginalize Jews in Germany and ultimately to slaughter millions of innocent people.

Edited September 20, 2016 by dialamah

[Argus]

What did Jesus say about the OT laws?

These laws are still valid – but, as we know, they are applied in a spiritual way. The application of the law has been transformed by the coming of Jesus Christ. If our hearts are circumcised, it does not matter whether we have been circumcised in the flesh. If we are offering spiritual sacrifices, we do not need to offer animals.

If we are always forgiving debts and liberating people from bondage, we do not have to do anything different on sabbatical years. If we are treating our livestock and farmland properly, we do not have to do anything different on sabbatical years. If we live by the spirit, the letter of these laws is not required.

If we examine our hearts for corruption and are being cleansed by Jesus Christ, then we do not have destroy houses that have mildew. If our thoughts are pure, we don’t have to worry about our fabrics. If we are always thinking of God and his laws, we don’t have to wear phylacteries. The laws are valid, but the way in which we obey them has been transformed by the coming of Jesus Christ.

https://www.gci.org/law/otlaws

[Argus]

Unless you refuse to accept it, Islam and the qu'ran also teach peace, tolerance and acceptance. Unless you refuse to accept it, Muslims as a whole do not support child marriage, or pedophilia, or even wife beating.

You have nothing to support that view except naivety and wishful thinking. Wife beating is legal in, as far as I know, all Muslim countries. And PEW polls have consistently shown enormous public support around the Muslim world, not just in the middle east, for extremist laws and rules from Sharia, including death for apostasy, blaspheme, adultery, and homosexuality.

[?Impact]

Wife beating is legal in, as far as I know, all Muslim countries.

The progressive ones teach you how on national TV

[Guest]

You have nothing to support that view except naivety and wishful thinking. Wife beating is legal in, as far as I know, all Muslim countries. And PEW polls have consistently shown enormous public support around the Muslim world, not just in the middle east, for extremist laws and rules from Sharia, including death for apostasy, blaspheme, adultery, and homosexuality.

Keep in mind that spousal rape was legal in Canada until 1983.

Misogyny, homophobia, extremism, violence are problems regardless of the source. The culture of Islamic nations needs to be reformed, not tolerated. Similarly, western culture and that of various Christian sects needs to continue to be reformed, not tolerated. Christian evangelical groups, including Pat Robertson's racket are working to thwart efforts to remove anti-homosexuality laws around the world. Christians are also more likely to support the removal of equal rights for homosexuals in North America.

Can we blame all Christians or the religion itself for the increased probability of being misogynistic, homophobic or the abhorrent scriptures in their holy books? No, of course not. We limit the condemnation to the perpetrators of abhorrent acts. Let's offer the same courtesy to Muslims.

[Argus]

Keep in mind that spousal rape was legal in Canada until 1983.

And STILL legal in all Muslim countries.

Misogyny, homophobia, extremism, violence are problems regardless of the source. The culture of Islamic nations needs to be reformed, not tolerated.

I see, and you show this by furiously defending it from all criticism, right?

Can we blame all Christians or the religion itself for the increased probability of being misogynistic, homophobic or the abhorrent scriptures in their holy books?

But those things are far, far milder among western Christians than among Muslims, have been in steady transition (witness Pope Francis) and there is far less unanimity of thought among Western Christians than among Muslims.

Let's offer the same courtesy to Muslims.

When have you offered courtesy to Christians, rather than mockery, disrespect and ridicule?

[Guest]

I see, and you show this by furiously defending it from all criticism, right?

Pointing out your hypocrisy is not a defence of all things Muslim.

But those things are far, far milder among western Christians than among Muslims, have been in steady transition (witness Pope Francis) and there is far less unanimity of thought among Western Christians than among Muslims.

Nobody is claiming the cultural evils that exist here are on par with those in some Islamic theocracies or many developing nations. The parallels are pointed out when people like you attempt to attribute certain problems to all Muslims. All followers of Islam are not Islamists or Jihadists, just like all Christians are not homophobes and misogynists. The misdeeds of our culture are not excused by the greater evils of another.

When have you offered courtesy to Christians, rather than mockery, disrespect and ridicule?

What are you talking about? I don't blame all Christians for acts of misogyny, homophobia, extremism, etc. something you certainly do to Muslims.

If you're referring to my stance on religion in general, I also don't treat Christians any differently than those who follow other gods. Those who hold beliefs without evidence deserve criticism. Bad ideas need to be challenged.

[Goddess]

Dialamah, you make some good points, but I agree, they are still a bit naive and wishful thinking. Even the Muslim girl on here who claims to only interpret the Koran in loving ways agrees with everything it says about hating and killing Jews. I'm surprised you don't see the massive disconnect between her 2 statements.

[Argus]

Pointing out your hypocrisy is not a defence of all things Muslim.

To you and other progressives, any suggestion that Islam has problems is tantamount to hypocrisy, since you hate the west so much and feel people should be criticizing it, and not Islam.

Nobody is claiming the cultural evils that exist here are on par with those in some Islamic theocracies or many developing nations.

And yet you freely and continuously point out those evils while angrily denouncing anyone who tries to do the same in Islamic theocracies or other Muslim countries.

The parallels are pointed out when people like you attempt to attribute certain problems to all Muslims.

Nobody here uses the term "all Muslims". You simply take any criticism of the harsher aspects of Islam as a criticism of all Muslims.

All followers of Islam are not Islamists or Jihadists,

And nobody has said they were. However, many hundreds of millions of them subscribe to a harsh, vicious ideological creed of Islam, and that includes wanting death and destruction on anyone, Muslim or not, who violates that creed.

just like all Christians are not homophobes and misogynists.

Just the ones who actually believe in Christianity, right?

What are you talking about? I don't blame all Christians for acts of misogyny, homophobia, extremism, etc. something you certainly do to Muslims.

No, I've never used the term 'all'. I have even posted percentages of Muslims in polls who believe in Sharia and in executing people for apostasy and blaspheme.

If you're referring to my stance on religion in general, I also don't treat Christians any differently than those who follow other gods. Those who hold beliefs without evidence deserve criticism. Bad ideas need to be challenged.

Unless they're Muslims, in which case they need to defended - by you.

[dialamah]

Dialamah, you make some good points, but I agree, they are still a bit naive and wishful thinking. Even the Muslim girl on here who claims to only interpret the Koran in loving ways agrees with everything it says about hating and killing Jews. I'm surprised you don't see the massive disconnect between her 2 statements.

I am not sure that she did agree; I've been told by other Muslims that Jews are also people of the book so they're entitled to extra protection according to the qu'ran. There's a bit of a language issue though with Altai, so I wonder if she meant to agree with killing Jews or intended something else.

If she'd said the same in response to killing gays, I would be more likely to take it at face value.

Edited September 20, 2016 by dialamah

[GostHacked]

Provide an example of Christians stoning folks. Will it be Uganda?

It goes to a point you keep making about the BOOK instead of the PEOPLE. Then it's the people and NOT the book.

Both the Bible and Quran appear to be violent ... but you are choosing to focus your attention on the Quran while ignoring everything in the bible.

[Argus]

I am not sure that she did agree; I've been told by other Muslims that Jews are also people of the book so they're entitled to extra protection according to the qu'ran.

Extra protection? That is not what is in the koran. As I posted earlier.

[eyeball]

There is no New Testament equivalent in the Koran. This is the problem. Christians can easily show this difference/change in thinking. Muslims cannot.

Sure they can but it's probably harder when the most powerful nations and empires of the world are vandalizing your's.

The world is just like a family that's trying to recover from really egregious long-term abuse. The abuse has to be interrupted and stopped often for a couple of generations before any kind of healing can begin to take hold and turn things towards a better direction. The development of more progressive values in Muslim countries has been pretty severely retarded by the depredations of the most powerful nations of the world and that has to stop before things get better.

[dialamah]

Extra protection? That is not what is in the koran. As I posted earlier.

You have no credibility.

[dialamah]

Even the Muslim girl on here who claims to only interpret the Koran in loving ways agrees with everything it says about hating and killing Jews. I'm surprised you don't see the massive disconnect between her 2 statements.

So I asked her directly about this. Its not that she thinks its ok to kill Jews just for being Jews. She believes that the qu'ran allows Muslims to fight and kill those who aggress against them. She considers Isreal aggressive and so Muslims do have the right, according to the qu'ran, to fight back with deadly force. She doesn't believe in Hadiths but says that according to some Hadiths, an army from the north which may include Russia or Ukraine, may be the ones to go to war with Isreal.

So her comment was in the context of self-defense, not killing for killing's sake. And in the context of allowing for self-defense, its not a contradiction to also claim the qu'ran teaches love etc.

Edited September 20, 2016 by dialamah