How Trudeau lost my vote

[PIK]

He might lose some more if people listen to Tarek Fatah founder of the Muslim canadian congress. Now it was on CFRA , But I imagine it will be in print shortly. But he ripped him a new one. Canadians better start paying attention to what this immature liberal leader is doing and who he is hanging out with.

Edited August 6, 2014 by PIK

[Black Dog]

JT admitted to going to an Al Qaida-linked Mosque in Montreal.

Slow Clap JT, Slow Clap.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/05/trudeau-lambasted-for-visiting-mosque-linked-to-al-qaida-recruitment

In mid-February (2013), immigration minister Jason Kenney toured a Toronto-area Islamic centre tied to Islamic Shia Ithna Asheri Jamaat (ISIJ), a Toronto-area organization put on notice by the York Regional Police for disseminating anti-Semitic literature.

Link

[Boges]

Yeah Bubber informed me of this in the status update. Failhorn for Sun News.

That being said, I don't really want any future PM glad handling with anyone that's cool with Sharia Law.

[Black Dog]

Yeah Bubber informed me of this in the status update. Failhorn for Sun News.

That being said, I don't really want any future PM glad handling with anyone that's cool with Sharia Law.

Right. Better to keep those people on the margins of society and not engage them at all. That's gonna stop it.

[Black Dog]

Moreover: If indeed it is true that al-Sunnah al-Nabawiah mosque remains a religious home for unassimilated Muslim immigrants with radical, un-Canadian views, shouldn’t that be all the more reason for Canadian politicians to let those congregants know that if they want to live and flourish in this country, they need to adapt to our values?

Justin Trudeau’s riding of Papineau is one of the poorest and most diverse in Canada. It is full of immigrants who are wrestling with the process of integrating into Canadian life. What sort of MP would we want for such a riding — one who brags to Sun News viewers about how he wouldn’t set foot within 50 feet of this or that house of prayer, lest he be tainted by association with the teeming Muslim hordes who pray therein … or someone who actually seeks to engage with these people and draw them into the political mainstream?

Sun News’ cynical attacks on Justin Trudeau have crossed the line into anti-Muslim hysteria

[Boges]

Right. Better to keep those people on the margins of society and not engage them at all. That's gonna stop it.

Certainly not stopping it in the UK

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-sharia-law-uk/18486

[Boges]

How is JT looking to bring fundamentalist Muslims into a more inclusive society? When he refuses to condemn honour killings are terrorists who bomb civilians it tough to have the opinion that he's looking to "change" the way these people think about life in the West.

[waldo]

SunNews and it's fervent followers trying to make hay over a 1990s reference to "some guys" having visited the mosque in question. 15+ years later JT visits the same mosque! Follow the SunNews bread crumbs people... JT is secretly Muslim!

[Bonam]

Right. Better to keep those people on the margins of society and not engage them at all. That's gonna stop it.

Or how about we just stop importing "those people" instead? Nah, unthinkable! We clearly benefit from bringing in hordes of unskilled "immigrants" that favor Sharia law! Sound economic policy!

[Black Dog]

Certainly not stopping it in the UK

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-sharia-law-uk/18486

Not sure I agree with your premise there.

How is JT looking to bring fundamentalist Muslims into a more inclusive society? When he refuses to condemn honour killings are terrorists who bomb civilians it tough to have the opinion that he's looking to "change" the way these people think about life in the West.

The fundamentalist Muslims aren't the audience we should be reaching.

[Boges]

Not sure I agree with your premise there.

What premise are you opposing? That Sharia is taking a foothold in the UK?

The fundamentalist Muslims aren't the audience we should be reaching.

This story is certainly a reach by Sun News. I'm hoping to read some sort of retraction, but I doubt it.

But in the past they have had legit stories about JT speaking at organizations that are fundamentalist.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2013/07/20130716-152043.html

OTTAWA — The Muslim Canadian Congress criticized Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau Tuesday for his association with what it calls "Canada's leading Islamist group."

Last Friday Trudeau was the guest at an Islamic Society of North America event. The organization and its Canadian branch endorse polygamy and support Sharia law in Canada.

TAREK FATAH: Trudeau panders to Islamists, again

"We are deeply disappointed that Justin Trudeau continues to appease known Islamist organizations that not only have a tainted record in the U.S. but who are known proponents of Sharia law in Canada," MCC president Mumtaz Khan said.

[Black Dog]

What premise are you opposing? That Sharia is taking a foothold in the UK?

I would suggest the fact that "a growing number of British Muslims are turning to traditional Islamic law" (per the link) is a sign that they are not engaged with mainstream society. IOW, it supports my point about the importance of engagement with these communities.

This story is certainly a reach by Sun News. I'm hoping to read some sort of retraction, but I doubt it.

But in the past they have had legit stories about JT speaking at organizations that are fundamentalist.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2013/07/20130716-152043.html

So what would you propose politicians do? Ignore them and hope they go away? Condemn them and risk further alienating people of that community?

Edited August 7, 2014 by Black Dog

[WestCoastRunner]

But in the past they have had legit stories about JT speaking at organizations that are fundamentalist.

So what. Nothing wrong with JT engaging communities and organizations to further conversations. JT is a new generation of politicians and it scares the hell out of many closed minded people.

[Boges]

Oh I see, so speaking out against people who want Canada to adopt a judicial system that doesn't see women as equal citizens is being closed mined.

Gotcha!

[Black Dog]

Oh I see, so speaking out against people who want Canada to adopt a judicial system that doesn't see women as equal citizens is being closed mined.

Gotcha!

I don't think this is the place to audition for a gig at Sun News.

[Boges]

The CPC made huge gains in 2011 appealing to ethnic communities who naturally think on the socially conservative side.

The burkah and niqab crowd is a bit much for the big tent.

Now these are hindu's but would the CBC be making as much hay about this if Muslims had asked for such an accommodation? And are the people that are complaining warranted?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cbsa-allowed-religious-travellers-to-avoid-female-guards-1.2730402

[Black Dog]

The CPC made huge gains in 2011 appealing to ethnic communities who naturally think on the socially conservative side.

That's what they'd like to believe, but that's not what the numbers say.

In fact, as political scientists have been sifting through the data of May 2, they’re learning that immigrant voters did not flock to the Conservatives in any large way in the election.

This was among one of the most surprising revelations last week when Canada’s leading political scientists held their annual conference in the immediate aftermath of the vote.

The professors who’ve been heading up the prestigious Canadian Election Study shared some of their early findings on the final day of the conference at Wilfrid Laurier University. And when it came to the issue of the immigrant vote, it appears that this study is going to be doing some myth-busting.

“Across the board, there doesn’t seem to be anything but a minor shift in terms of the immigrant versus non-immigrant vote where Conservatives are concerned,” said Stuart Soroka of McGill University.

Full study is here.

The burkah and niqab crowd is a bit much for the big tent.

So wait, do you check each one's credentials at the literal tent's entrance or what? Because how do you know who is worth pursuing if you can't venture into the community lest you be tarred by association with the "burkah and niqab crowd?"

"We need to reach out to the immigrant community."

"Ok, how about we go to their houses of worship?"

"**** no! Sun News would be all over that!"

Now these are hindu's but would the CBC be making as much hay about this if Muslims had asked for such an accommodation? And are the people that are complaining warranted?

Not sure what you mean by "making hay". They've reported similar stories before.

[Boges]

That's what they'd like to believe, but that's not what the numbers say.

It's funny, that study seeks to disprove that immigrants flocked to the Conservatives in numbers that were significant yet it doesn't really provide a reasonable explanation for the CPC success in suburban ridings with large immigrant communities. Other than, of course, the vote splitting amongst NDP voters that will always be a reality in elections regardless of the ethnicity involved. I also am really skeptical that they could accurately gauge what type of voters voted for who since elections don't record who votes for who.

So wait, do you check each one's credentials at the literal tent's entrance or what? Because how do you know who is worth pursuing if you can't venture into the community lest you be tarred by association with the "burkah and niqab crowd?"

"We need to reach out to the immigrant community."

"Ok, how about we go to their houses of worship?"

"**** no! Sun News would be all over that!"

I'm unsure why you're defending a group of people that think this way. There are Muslims that don't think this way as it's more a cultural than religious philosophy.

[Argus]

I would suggest the fact that "a growing number of British Muslims are turning to traditional Islamic law" (per the link) is a sign that they are not engaged with mainstream society. IOW, it supports my point about the importance of engagement with these communities.

My understanding is the British are miles ahead of Canada in terms of attempting to 'engage' with Muslims. They have made far more accommodation with them, and Muslims have been invited into every aspect of government, including being appointed to the House of Lords and brought into parliament and on councils across the country. Despite that, British Muslims seem to feel less British, to feel less kinship for their countrymen, and less loyalty to them, as opposed to their co-religionists across the world, than is the case in Canada.

Engaging with such people is like engaging with the Tea Party. They're entirely uninterested in your perspective or in any form of compromise. They want what they want, and have no interest in hearing that their agenda is illogical and counter productive. God talks to them, after all.

So what would you propose politicians do? Ignore them and hope they go away? Condemn them and risk further alienating people of that community?

I think when you engage with them you give them respect, which grants them a certain acceptability in the community. That is the last thing we need. We need them to be mocked, jeered and ridiculed. We need their ignorant, backward, barbarous believes to be utterly rejected by the entire community. Muslims will never change from within because to do so means reinterpreting what God says. They must be changed from the outside, for that is the only place they will see their social beliefs questioned.

[Black Dog]

I'm unsure why you're defending a group of people that think this way.

Come on dude, you're better than that. The issue is how to engage with immigrant communities and how to deal with extremism. The Sun News (and by extension your) view seems to be to ignore them and hope they go away.

There are Muslims that don't think this way as it's more a cultural than religious philosophy.

Obviously. So do you only visit certain politically correct mosques and not others and basically cede entire communities to extremism? Or do you engage those very communities (engagement =/= endorsement BTW) and attempt to draw them out into the Canadian mainstream, thus weakening the pull of incompatible cultural beliefs?

[Black Dog]

My understanding is the British are miles ahead of Canada in terms of attempting to 'engage' with Muslims. They have made far more accommodation with them, and Muslims have been invited into every aspect of government, including being appointed to the House of Lords and brought into parliament and on councils across the country.

How nice that they've been "invited" to participate in the democratic process. Also, accommodation and engagement aren't the same thing either.

Despite that, British Muslims seem to feel less British, to feel less kinship for their countrymen, and less loyalty to them, as opposed to their co-religionists across the world, than is the case in Canada.

They're also much more segregated over there, physically, socially, economically and so on.

Engaging with such people is like engaging with the Tea Party. They're entirely uninterested in your perspective or in any form of compromise. They want what they want, and have no interest in hearing that their agenda is illogical and counter productive. God talks to them, after all.

I think when you engage with them you give them respect, which grants them a certain acceptability in the community. That is the last thing we need. We need them to be mocked, jeered and ridiculed. We need their ignorant, backward, barbarous believes to be utterly rejected by the entire community. Muslims will never change from within because to do so means reinterpreting what God says. They must be changed from the outside, for that is the only place they will see their social beliefs questioned.

This is a great strategy...if you're n Al Qaeda recruiter,

[PIK]

My understanding is the British are miles ahead of Canada in terms of attempting to 'engage' with Muslims. They have made far more accommodation with them, and Muslims have been invited into every aspect of government, including being appointed to the House of Lords and brought into parliament and on councils across the country. Despite that, British Muslims seem to feel less British, to feel less kinship for their countrymen, and less loyalty to them, as opposed to their co-religionists across the world, than is the case in Canada.

Engaging with such people is like engaging with the Tea Party. They're entirely uninterested in your perspective or in any form of compromise. They want what they want, and have no interest in hearing that their agenda is illogical and counter productive. God talks to them, after all.

I think when you engage with them you give them respect, which grants them a certain acceptability in the community. That is the last thing we need. We need them to be mocked, jeered and ridiculed. We need their ignorant, backward, barbarous believes to be utterly rejected by the entire community. Muslims will never change from within because to do so means reinterpreting what God says. They must be changed from the outside, for that is the only place they will see their social beliefs questioned.

Better do some reading on what is really going on in England with their muslim population. We don't need their ways coming here. Moderates support harper ,that leaves the radicals supporting trudeau.

[Argus]

How nice that they've been "invited" to participate in the democratic process. Also, accommodation and engagement aren't the same thing either.

The British have worked quite hard to engage them, but at the same time, their definition of multiculturalism also had them encouraging these newcomers in retaining their culture and social beliefs. Which, unfortunately, all too many have done.

They're also much more segregated over there, physically, socially, economically and so on.

By their own choice.

This is a great strategy...if you're n Al Qaeda recruiter,

Not at all. Many have pointed out that in a system which forbids those at the bottom from questioning authority, and which benefits those in authority, change is most unlikely unless it comes from pressure from without. Canadian Muslims tend to be less apt to extremism than European and Middle East Muslim on a number of social issues entirely because of social pressure from without.

[Black Dog]

The British have worked quite hard to engage them, but at the same time, their definition of multiculturalism also had them encouraging these newcomers in retaining their culture and social beliefs. Which, unfortunately, all too many have done.

None of that means engagement is not worthwhile.

By their own choice.

LOL wut

Not at all. Many have pointed out that in a system which forbids those at the bottom from questioning authority, and which benefits those in authority, change is most unlikely unless it comes from pressure from without.

Who?

Canadian Muslims tend to be less apt to extremism than European and Middle East Muslim on a number of social issues entirely because of social pressure from without.

Any proof?

[Boges]

The Sun is doubling down with this story of the Montreal Mosque.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/09/trudeau-not-ready-for-prime-time

It’s a very sad and illiberal state of affairs, in that moderates and progressives within the Islamic community are marginalized, abused and frequently threatened. It’s far worse in Muslim countries, where these threats are often carried out. In Canada the reformers are appealing for support, and if Trudeau genuinely cared about the future of Islam and Muslim Canadians he would be a little more discriminating in whom he adopts as his favourite Muslims.

Tolerance of the intolerant is not a sign of an open mind but an empty head, and giving one’s name or even tacit approval to those who viscerally despise the freedoms upon which Canada is based is a bitter habit. Not ready for prime time, certainly not ready for prime minister.

There ARE people in the Muslim community that don't ascribe to such extremist views. If JT wants to change hearts and mind perhaps he can give the more moderate Muslims an audience.