Malaysian Airliner Reportedly Shot Down in east Ukraine

[On Guard for Thee]

Was it a no fly zone?

Only up to 32,000 ft. This flight was apparently at 33,000. Obviously didn't do 'em much good though.

[On Guard for Thee]

The picture I'm getting is a bunch of vodka soaked, brain dead Russian scumbags who f*****ed up royally and now haven't got the decency to honor the dead they created.

[Derek 2.0]

American special forces would not be able to drive that thing through all the road blocks in that area without firefights!

And I'm willing to bet the time and route of Putin's plane is not something they put on a press release.

What’s the difference between a Russian, Russian speaking Ukrainian, a Crimean Tartar and a Ukrainian separatist supported by Russians?

[Derek 2.0]

What exactly is your scenario other than the bizarre suggestion the Tartars drove the thing around - knowing where Putin's plane was going to be, of course, and shot it off?

I don’t have one, since there is clearly little information available to make one as of yet.

[Derek 2.0]

That's more than a little irrelevant at this point. It is what it is.

I would say Europe’s dependency on Russian energy exports in very relevant to this conversation.

[Derek 2.0]

you tell me if the can spot the difference at 30,000 feet.

Very good point.........

[WestCoastRunner]

Does it really make ANY difference if it was some stupid Russian conscripts operating this thing as opposed to stupid Russian-Ukrainian cats-paws operating it?

We want to know the absolute facts, of course it makes a difference. Why would you think otherwise?

[Derek 2.0]

I think the conspiracy- theory was that the Ukrainian government shoot down the plane because they thought it was Putin's plane but after having realized their mistake placed the blame on the rebels.

Very very implausible even for a conspiracy- theory but millions of people in Russia take it seriously.

Of course both the Russians and Ukrainians armies are inundated with ethnic groups that don’t particularly like the thought of a strong centralized Russian empire led by Putin.

[Big Guy]

If it is generally accepted that whoever shot down that airplane (if it was shot down) did not intend to do it then what is the problem. Who cares who made the mistake. What difference does it make? They are all dead. It was not meant to happen. There is a war going on.

So if the person/group/country who started the war is at fault then who started this war?

[WestCoastRunner]

If it is generally accepted that whoever shot down that airplane (if it was shot down) did not intend to do it then what is the problem. Who cares who made the mistake. What difference does it make? They are all dead. It was not meant to happen. There is a war going on.

So if the person/group/country who started the war is at fault then who started this war?

And that is a good point. Didn't the U.S. shoot down a plane during a war conflict. Unfortunately, we have hundreds of bodies of victims who's families can't retrieve and give a burial. And we don't have investigators on scene to help prevent this from happening in the future.

[Derek 2.0]

They have nothing to gain from shooting down a commercial liner nor do they have any reason to shoot down Putin, if he dies his successor will have a casus belli against Ukraine and if they were to fail it would also have virtually the same reason.

Who is Putin’s successor? Nature abhors a vacuum........Especially in Russia.

[WestCoastRunner]

a great interview right now with hillary and rose.

[bush_cheney2004]

If it is generally accepted that whoever shot down that airplane (if it was shot down) did not intend to do it then what is the problem. Who cares who made the mistake. What difference does it make?

The difference that it makes is that the responsible party is expected to compensate victims families and the loss of the aircraft according to "international law". A proper investigation can establish exactly what happened. It also matters a lot to the insurance companies.

Edited July 20, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Signals.Cpl]

Who is Putin’s successor? Nature abhors a vacuum........Especially in Russia.

Whoever it is, I don't know but I'm sure someone will grab the reins and might use it as an excuse to take all of Ukraine.

[Derek 2.0]

Whoever it is, I don't know but I'm sure someone will grab the reins and might use it as an excuse to take all of Ukraine.

Or several factions, with a long standing institutional distrust of each other, could attempt to grab the reins……I feel, if Putin were killed, the Russians could very well be dealing with their own internal crisis and having no time, nor ability, for punitive action against the Ukraine.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Derek 2.0

[Signals.Cpl]

Or several factions, with a long standing institutional distrust of each other, could attempt to grab the reins……I feel, if Putin were killed, the Russians could very well be dealing with their own internal crisis and having no time, nor ability, for punitive action against the Ukraine.

Honestly though, I don't think it even matters because I highly doubt that Putin would fly through the area and even if he would I doubt anyone would know ahead of time unless it was specifically planned by someone in his inner circle trying to get rid of him but thats way out there so... In this case it seems that we should avoid creating a conspiracy theory around something that is most likely incompetence or lack of intelligence.

[Derek 2.0]

Honestly though, I don't think it even matters because I highly doubt that Putin would fly through the area and even if he would I doubt anyone would know ahead of time unless it was specifically planned by someone in his inner circle trying to get rid of him but thats way out there so...

Do you know the history and paranoia enshrined in the politics of Russia post 1917? There has been numerous precedents set for nearly 100 years in Russia.

In this case it seems that we should avoid creating a conspiracy theory around something that is most likely incompetence or lack of intelligence.

Why is that though? Simply put, opinions on the culprits of this incident are being formed by Western media and Governments, through information largely obtained from the Ukrainians……..Frankly, I “trust” the Ukrainians as much as I trust the Russians……..

[Signals.Cpl]

Do you know the history and paranoia enshrined in the politics of Russia post 1917? There has been numerous precedents set for nearly 100 years in Russia.

In this case it seems to me that the Russians and separatists are trying to create enough doubt to avoid taking responsibility.

Why is that though? Simply put, opinions on the culprits of this incident are being formed by Western media and Governments, through information largely obtained from the Ukrainians……..Frankly, I “trust” the Ukrainians as much as I trust the Russians……..

Ukraine has nothing to gain from framing Russia or the separatists and everything to lose if they fail to do it right, Russia has more to lose from trying to frame the Ukrainians than to gain from it, and the separatists are just an extension of Russia and its policy. In this case it seems that the separatists and Russia made a claim to shooting down a Ukrainian plane only to remove those claims once it became obvious they shot down the wrong plane.

[-TSS-]

More confusion:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-knew-of-separatists-air-defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508

[GostHacked]

More confusion:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-knew-of-separatists-air-defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508

A no fly zone should be all the way up. That missile can reach 60,000 feet. Twice the normal altitude of most commercial airliner traffic. Actually higher than many combat aircraft's max ceiling height.

[Rue]

I concur with Signal Corps word for word. As On Guard said this sounds like a bunch of trigger happy drunk terrorists with a new toy who thought they shot down a Ukrainian aircraft.

Putin ultimately is to blame he gave the BUK to the Russian separatists.. The world knows Putin is culpable but I doubt anyone will do anything.

The Russian separatists not only took all the orange/black boxes, but they even remove 38 bodies. They have instructions to prevent a proper investigation on the ground.

Putin has blood on his hands.

[Wilber]

A no fly zone should be all the way up. That missile can reach 60,000 feet. Twice the normal altitude of most commercial airliner traffic. Actually higher than many combat aircraft's max ceiling height.

A little perspective here. Unless the Ukrainians shot this airctaft down, they are not at fault. The only ones who are, are the ones who pulled the trigger.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Wilber

[Derek 2.0]

In this case it seems to me that the Russians and separatists are trying to create enough doubt to avoid taking responsibility.

The same can’t be said of the Ukrainians?

Ukraine has nothing to gain from framing Russia or the separatists and everything to lose if they fail to do it right,

Moral, military, intelligence and most important of all, economic support from the rest of the World is hardly nothing.

Russia has more to lose from trying to frame the Ukrainians than to gain from it,

Russia has very little to lose in this entire conflict with a weakened United States and a neutered Europe……..With this incident alone, if it became proven that Russia had nothing to do with the shoot down, would the rest of the World suddenly embrace Russia?

and the separatists are just an extension of Russia and its policy.

But of course, what would they stand to gain…….on the inverse, if the Ukrainians were the culprits and successfully shifted the blame onto the separatists, the Ukrainian labelled terrorists become an even greater pox.

Remember, one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist……..

In this case it seems that the separatists and Russia made a claim to shooting down a Ukrainian plane only to remove those claims once it became obvious they shot down the wrong plane.

And said claim is based on “evidence” provided by the Ukrainians…hardly a non-biased source….could said evidence be faked? Could it be transcripts from the previous downing of a Ukrainian aircraft?

I truly wonder what the actual electronic intercept capabilities of the Ukraine actually are…..were they not funding their recent campaign through public donations?

[Shady]

That is nothing but fantasy.

Exactly. The Putin plane propaganda is a way to deflect criticism and make him out to be a victim as well.

[GostHacked]

A little perspective here. Unless the Ukrainians shot this airctaft down, they are not at fault. The only ones who are, are the ones who pulled the trigger.

A little perspective and foresight might be not to fly near conflict zones period.