eyeball Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 ...there's no doubt, the guy was dealt a bad hand with his family. Having said all that - his sentence and the subsequent bail issue is not really about Khadr - it's about society's repugnance with the global scourge of terrorism and it's ability to erode the very soul of humanity. So it's all about scapegoating. You must feel quite proud of Ottawa's achievement in Omar Khadr's case. Too bad our nation's cowardice caused our population to became so divided over this that bitter disgust is likely the most prevalent thing Canadians feel towards one another. Are war convention laws against governments and politicians denigrating and disrespecting POW's more for the protection of captives or to prevent captors from losing their humanity and way? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
cybercoma Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 Actually last time I checked murder is a war crime, he killed a U.S. Soldier while he was an illegal combatant.....that part of the convention is designed to protect innocent civilians, but it works both ways. None, please explain what makes Omar any different than the other terrorists, because he was Under 16 years of age.....because there is a lot of terrorist under 16....what makes him any different than the other Canadian minors that were charged and tried in adult court because of the seriousness of their crimes. Start a topic i' m sure lots of people will have something to say. According to legal experts in the field of international law, he wasn't charged with a war crime and what he was charged with didn't amount to a war crime by any definition under international law. The tribunal had no place trying him. Quote "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions." --Thomas Jefferson
drummindiver Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 Again, do you really think a teenage Kahdr went to fight of his own volition, or was he indoctrinated? Being indoctrinated does not absolve you of guilt. He was not coerced. He threw the grenade of his own volition. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 According to legal experts in the field of international law, he wasn't charged with a war crime and what he was charged with didn't amount to a war crime by any definition under international law. The tribunal had no place trying him. Somewhere earlier I mentioned a court case but neglected to provide a link. Sorry if I am sending you old news. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boumediene_v._Bush Quote
The_Squid Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 Being indoctrinated does not absolve you of guilt. He was not coerced. He threw the grenade of his own volition. Was he indoctrinated as a child into a militant religious organization to do their bidding? Or did he go to Afghanistan of his own volition? You don't need to try and hide from the question or twist it to be about throwing grenades.... Quote Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings.
eyeball Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 Being indoctrinated does not absolve you of guilt. When you're a child it does. He was not coerced. He threw the grenade of his own volition. Notwithstanding the distinct likelihood that he never threw anything it simply does't matter if he threw it or not. The person who indoctrinated him is guilty for anyone he might have hurt. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
The_Squid Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 Here is a good summation of Khadr's time after being captured: http://www.vox.com/2015/5/8/8572585/omar-khadr-guantanamo A few months into Khadr's detention — he was, keep in mind, still only a child — guards chained him to the floor of an interrogation room. They pulled his arms and legs behind in a "bow" position, until his limbs strained painfully at their sockets. This was known in the officially sanctioned American torture guides as a "stress position," and victims often pass out from the pain. Over several hours, the guards contorted Omar into different stress positions, each time shoving him into a painful position on the ground. Eventually, inevitably, he urinated himself. The MPs returned, mocked him for a while and then poured pine-oil solvent all over his body. Without altering his chains, they began dragging him by his feet through the mixture of urine and pine oil. Because his body had been so tightened, the new motion racked it. The MPs swung him around and around, the piss and solvent washing up into his face. The idea was to use him as a human mop. When the MPs felt they'd successfully pretended to soak up the liquid with his body, they uncuffed him and carried him back to his cell. He was not allowed a change of clothes for two days. ------------------------------- That same year, Army Chaplain James Yee was assigned to Guantanamo, where he was surprised to find Khadr, an English-speaking boy, among the prison's population. Yee later told the journalist Michelle Shephard that he would sometimes see Khadr reading a book of Disney cartoons. An interrogator had presented the book to Khadr during an interrogation, intending it as an insult. In fact, Khadr had been delighted. Yee recalled finding Khadr curled up asleep on his cot, the book with the Mickey Mouse cover clutched to his chest. It is difficult to picture: a boy on a metal cot finding momentary respite between violent interrogations, grasping this lone symbol of a childhood he never had. In 2010, after Khadr had spent nearly a decade in Guantanamo and was now in his early 20s, a psychologist who was visiting the prison asked him what he most missed about life before his captivity. He replied, "Being loved." Anyone who thinks this kind of treatment is OK to do to a child, is a brainless idiot. Quote Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings.
drummindiver Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Here is a good summation of Khadr's time after being captured: Anyone who thinks this kind of treatment is OK to do to a child, is a brainless idiot. Was he indoctrinated as a child into a militant religious organization to do their bidding? Or did he go to Afghanistan of his own volition? You don't need to try and hide from the question or twist it to be about throwing grenades.... Sorry, why not? Is him throwing the grenade not the issue at hand? If you think no, why not? Are we debating whether he went to Afghanistan of his own volition, or whether he threw the grenade of his own volition? I personally don't care how or why he went to Afghanistan. I think everyone agrees he went there due to being indoctrinated by his father, Osama Bin Laden's personal bud. Fair enough. However, Omar threw the grenade, killing and maiming. He was not a member of a defending army, he was a terrorist. Plain and simple. What happened to him after should not have happened in a fair, democratic society, one we all aspire to (I would hope). At the end of the day, indoctrination does not absolve guilt. Most violent murderers are indoctrinated into violence through violent parents or violent environments, and we don't absolve them of guilt....so why Omar? You spend so much more time detailing what happened to him AFTER he murdered and maimed and so little time on his crime. Edited May 11, 2015 by drummindiver Quote
Army Guy Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 Oops, did I make a typo. OK, MCA, it refers to Military Commissions Act. A little somethin the US cooked up 4 years or so after they were already waterboarding Omar at Gitmo. Actually military commisions have been ongoing in the US since 1778, infact they have been used to try enemy combatants in WWI, WWII, and the world did not have a problem with them at the time. The 2006 version was designed to try illiegal combatants, it would later be modified in 2009 to answer some calls that it did not provide enough protection to these illiegal combatants. The entire process was started by the U.S. because the genva conventions are outdated and do no include or are very vague on articles dealing with terrorism. Under today's conventions terrorist are to be dealt with as combatants, and afforded protection under the conventions even though they do not follow any of the conventions themselfs Conventions designed to ensure safety of innocent civilians, to prevent confusion by other forces when they are engaged such as the wearing of uniforms or other markings to indentify them as combatants, carrying of arms openly etc etc. instead they purposely disregard these rules to further their survival by blending into the crowd. For these reasons it was the decision to deny these rights under the convention to these groups. The UN has not shown any interest in re writing these conventions nor has any of the other nations, so the US decided to act on it's own, hence the creation of a new military commision to deal with illiegal combatants, and there acts. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 Again, do you really think a teenage Kahdr went to fight of his own volition, or was he indoctrinated? Squid , I agree Omar was put in a difficult postion for a boy , then a teenager, he was dragged over there by his parents, while over there he was asked to become a suicide bomber, or attend terrorist training camps, I get it not very good chioces....did it make any difference in the patty hurst case, were she was indoctrinated , brain washed, was she not held accountable for her actions, how many Canadian youths have been given adult sentences because of the seriousness of their crimes. Even the UN and it,s new child soldiers drive has left an opening that children can be sentenced for their crimes there is no free ride. That day of the attack Omar had lots of chioces he could have made, but did not, only Omar knows exactly what he did. During my tours overseas I've seen lots of kids Omar's age and much younger do terrible things and pay for those actions with there lives...all I've ever wanted was for Omar to complete his sentence....not paroled easily for good behaviour, but the full sentence. I wanted justice to be served...I do not agree with everything Omar has been subjected to, and I hope that those responsible for those actions pay for them. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 So it's all about scapegoating. You must feel quite proud of Ottawa's achievement in Omar Khadr's case. Too bad our nation's cowardice caused our population to became so divided over this that bitter disgust is likely the most prevalent thing Canadians feel towards one another. Are war convention laws against governments and politicians denigrating and disrespecting POW's more for the protection of captives or to prevent captors from losing their humanity and way? You talk about these illiegal combatants rights like it is something that is owe to them, and yet fail to mention WHY is it that people have a problem giving them the same treatment that is afforded anyone else.....could it be these individuals don,t care about any of the conventions, nor do they care about any rights you think you may have, no instead they are perfectly fine with throwing acid in young girls faces for going to school, they are fine with cutting prisoners of war heads off, in front of a camera for the whole world to see, they are fine with peeling the skin of an old man and staking him to the ground to cook in the afternoon sun, his only crime was answering a few questions from NATO soldiers . Perhaps the question is what rights do these people deserve to have, or do we turn the other cheek, treat them like humans and pray they get their just rewards in the after life.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
On Guard for Thee Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 Actually military commisions have been ongoing in the US since 1778, infact they have been used to try enemy combatants in WWI, WWII, and the world did not have a problem with them at the time. The 2006 version was designed to try illiegal combatants, it would later be modified in 2009 to answer some calls that it did not provide enough protection to these illiegal combatants. The entire process was started by the U.S. because the genva conventions are outdated and do no include or are very vague on articles dealing with terrorism. Under today's conventions terrorist are to be dealt with as combatants, and afforded protection under the conventions even though they do not follow any of the conventions themselfs Conventions designed to ensure safety of innocent civilians, to prevent confusion by other forces when they are engaged such as the wearing of uniforms or other markings to indentify them as combatants, carrying of arms openly etc etc. instead they purposely disregard these rules to further their survival by blending into the crowd. For these reasons it was the decision to deny these rights under the convention to these groups. The UN has not shown any interest in re writing these conventions nor has any of the other nations, so the US decided to act on it's own, hence the creation of a new military commision to deal with illiegal combatants, and there acts. One, and its only one, of the legal problems with the MCA is using it to retroactively charge someone. Add to that George Bush denying habeas corpus to inmates at Gitmo with a stroke of his pen being unconstitutional, and you have the makings of a strong case for overturning what was a very dubious conviction in the Khadr case. I suggest all that was taken into consideration as the judge considered his bail request. Quote
eyeball Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 You talk about these illiegal combatants rights like it is something that is owe to them, and yet fail to mention WHY is it that people have a problem giving them the same treatment that is afforded anyone else.....could it be these individuals don,t care about any of the conventions, nor do they care about any rights you think you may have, no instead they are perfectly fine with throwing acid in young girls faces for going to school, they are fine with cutting prisoners of war heads off, in front of a camera for the whole world to see, they are fine with peeling the skin of an old man and staking him to the ground to cook in the afternoon sun, his only crime was answering a few questions from NATO soldiers . Perhaps the question is what rights do these people deserve to have, or do we turn the other cheek, treat them like humans and pray they get their just rewar ds in the after life.... What would Jesus do? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
jacee Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) You talk about these illiegal combatants rights like it is something that is owe to them, and yet fail to mention WHY is it that people have a problem giving them the same treatment that is afforded anyone else.....could it be these individuals don,t care about any of the conventions, nor do they care about any rights you think you may have, no instead they are perfectly fine with throwing acid in young girls faces for going to school, they are fine with cutting prisoners of war heads off, in front of a camera for the whole world to see, they are fine with peeling the skin of an old man and staking him to the ground to cook in the afternoon sun, his only crime was answering a few questions from NATO soldiers . Perhaps the question is what rights do these people deserve to have, or do we turn the other cheek, treat them like humans and pray they get their just rewards in the after life.... None of those crimes have to do with Khadr. He served his sentence. Nothing is accomplished by this. Let it go, Army Guy. It's over. . Edited May 11, 2015 by jacee Quote Rapists, pedophiles, and nazis post online too.
Army Guy Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 One, and its only one, of the legal problems with the MCA is using it to retroactively charge someone. Add to that George Bush denying habeas corpus to inmates at Gitmo with a stroke of his pen being unconstitutional, and you have the makings of a strong case for overturning what was a very dubious conviction in the Khadr case. I suggest all that was taken into consideration as the judge considered his bail request. And yet nothing was overturned, in omars case, nor was there a plan to go back and over turn was there. MCA has been upgraded and is continues to receive upgrades as the laws changes. It is my opinion that the charges were laid by the MCA for war crimes against the U.S. , and the full sentence should have been served. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 What would Jesus do? Turn them to ashes, sorry I forgot that was dad..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 None of those crimes have to do with Khadr. He served his sentence. Nothing is accomplished by this. Let it go, Army Guy. It's over. . Your right Jacee, Omar was charged with murder, attempted murder, and providing assistance and support to our enemies, oh and they're is the spying thing.....some people let go to soon.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
jacee Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Your right Jacee, Omar was charged with murder, attempted murder, and providing assistance and support to our enemies, oh and they're is the spying thing.....some people let go to soon....It's over.. Edited May 11, 2015 by jacee Quote Rapists, pedophiles, and nazis post online too.
eyeball Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 None of those crimes have to do with Khadr. He served his sentence. Nothing is accomplished by this. Let it go, Army Guy. It's over. . These guys haven't even started. Wait until Khadr's real court case gets underway, then we'll hear some sniveling. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Army Guy Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 Sorry , Jacee for me it will be over. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
jacee Posted May 11, 2015 Report Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Sorry , Jacee for me it will be over.Do you mean it will "never" be over?If so, I understand that Army Guy. But 'it' isn't about Omar Khadr. He's just a convenient target. He's served his sentence, the only person convicted of murder in a war. It is over. Let him be. . Edited May 11, 2015 by jacee Quote Rapists, pedophiles, and nazis post online too.
On Guard for Thee Posted May 12, 2015 Report Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) And yet nothing was overturned, in omars case, nor was there a plan to go back and over turn was there. MCA has been upgraded and is continues to receive upgrades as the laws changes. It is my opinion that the charges were laid by the MCA for war crimes against the U.S. , and the full sentence should have been served. Nothing has been overturned because the case is still ongoing. And as I've already stated, the shoddiness of the original case and the later MCA are one of the reasons he was granted bail. Edited May 12, 2015 by On Guard for Thee Quote
Je suis Omar Posted May 12, 2015 Report Posted May 12, 2015 First of all, Americans are not terrorists , only some who run the government, like CIA and others. If you support the USA terrorists, if you, meaning the YOU who are supposedly part of "Government of the people, by the people, for the people" can't or won't control your criminal employees, then you have no business continuing to delude yourselves that you somehow function in a democracy. The people of a country can't be responsible for what its government does, especially if they don't know what the government is up to, and that goes for Canada too. Who knows what has happened in the past You are describing a totalitarian system of government and I find it amazing that anyone would admit being satisfied with such a situation. Sadly far too many are, they seem to relish the fact that their governments are slaughtering people and stealing their wealth. And the most shocking thing is they can't even start to imagine that happening to their own children, their parents, their aunts, uncles, cousins, friends. Would you like to know what Layla Anwar, an Iraqi lady thinks of the USA and its helper terrorist nations. It's very eye opening. So you "sacrificed" for us, so you liberated us from "tyranny", so you "lived up to your responsibilities" --- like you did in Falluja, Haditha, Mahmoudiya, Baghdad, Basra, Mosul, Ramadi...¨"kill the motherfuckers" you shouted...and your wives masturbated to your love letters, or shed a few tears while waving that infamous flag...the flag of a degenerate, decaying country that has offered nothing but murder, carnage and mayhem... You liberated us from "dictatorship" with 5 times the size of a Hiroshima and a Nagasaki...you liberated us until there was no space left in our morgues, and 7 and half years later, we still search for the dead...you liberated us until our streets turned into pools of blood, and mosques became torture dungeons where those hajjis were having their eyes plucked out and their flesh drilled, you liberated us so we can be abducted, raped and murdered for a 1000$ or for wearing lipstick...you liberated us so our bodies can float on the Tigris and Euphrates, mutilated unrecognizable...you liberated us alright...stuffing us in prisons cells, covering us with your piss and excrements, or handing us to your mercenaries and your pimps and whores in turbans, while you fucked the prostitutes specially brought to you in your Green Fortress... and while the rest of us lived in walled ghettos that you constructed for us... You liberated us alright...and you lived up to your principles, your ideals and your responsibilities... But I do grant you one thing, you computerized, digitalized death for us...you see, thanks to you our morgue is now equipped with the latest technology, so 7 years down the line, we can finally go and find the corpse of a loved one, maybe. We even got numbers, serial numbers, you are serial killers and we get serial numbers... We carry numbers wherever we go, number on our passports, on our ID cards, on our prison bracelets, and even on our dead bodies...the numbers follow us to the cemeteries, we got plenty of them today...all this reconstruction money, we built cemeteries with...well not quite, you stole the money...billions of dollars, so we turned gardens and parks into graveyards...our children play there, amidst the wailing of mothers in perpetual grief... You are indeed a brave people...a noble, brave people. See, all what you've done for us! Your generosity will be recorded in history annals...and you will be used as a historical example, a model of a country and a people of great integrity -- just like the New Iraq model. Those of us who could not handle this overflowing compassion from you (as your stinking alternative press likes us to believe - Americans are compassionate people), flew away...escaped the milk of human kindness, carrying a few documents and memories, wounds and scars stacked in suitcases...with no destination... A permanent exile has become our abode...a new geographical location not found on any map...carrying our selves like some overburdening, heavy bundle, struggling to make ends meet, struggling to survive, struggling not to become insane, struggling not be engulfed by that nothingness of yours... Scratching humanity with our nails...trying to find it, digging with our bare hands, sometimes wishing that we were buried there, alongside our loved ones...sometimes wishing we were never born, sometimes crying in our solitude, sometimes screaming in our nightmares, sometimes numbing ourselves so we can match your nothingness... READ IT ALL AT, http://arabwomanblues.blogspot.ca/2010_09_01_archive.html?m=1 SCROLL DOWN FOR THIS BLOG ENTRY ENTITLED, Vomiting Perfidy ... and what is happening now under Harper, who seems to like to send off our military to any conflict that makes him feel good. Lately Harper talking about sending the military to the Philippines, to "train" their military, training under Harper means going to war. Continuing, aiding the 117 years of USA terrorism against the people of the Philippines. The Rape of the Philippines! Quote
cybercoma Posted May 12, 2015 Report Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) And yet nothing was overturned, in omars case, nor was there a plan to go back and over turn was there. MCA has been upgraded and is continues to receive upgrades as the laws changes. It is my opinion that the charges were laid by the MCA for war crimes against the U.S. , and the full sentence should have been served. Omar was not charged with anything that is defined as a war crime in international law. That's the entire problem with the process and why he will likely win appeal. If anyone committed war crimes here, it was his father and the people his father associated, dragging Omar to a foreign country and forcing him, as a child, to fight a war as an illegal combatant (as disputable as that designation is anyway, considering the US declared war against an illegal enemy). Edited May 12, 2015 by cybercoma Quote "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions." --Thomas Jefferson
Army Guy Posted May 12, 2015 Report Posted May 12, 2015 Do you mean it will "never" be over? If so, I understand that Army Guy. But 'it' isn't about Omar Khadr. He's just a convenient target. He's served his sentence, the only person convicted of murder in a war. It is over. Let him be. . Thank you , I did mean never, is he a convenient target, I don't think so, he and some many others like him are the face of a group that I spent time hunting down for the crimes they committed, or trying to prevent them from committing more, the same group that's taken the life's of some many good friends, for me any many more that served there is no letting go. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
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