August1991 Posted July 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 Can irony be 'learned' ? Yes, like sarcasm. In the West, nowadays, a defining feature of being a teenager is that a teenager understands "sarcasm": saying one thing when you mean something else. In fact, Piaget showed that "sarcasm" is a question of age. Young children just don't get it. Irony? To me, this is the hallmark of the West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) What do either irony or calculus have to do with "Religion and Politics"? It is hard to understand a limit: you're not exactly 5 foot 4, (64 inches) because you're more exactly 64.3 inches. Or, 64.36 inches. And it is hard to understand irony because it is the universe who sees our inexactitude. ===== To return to my OP, I don't know whether it is more important/useful to teach calculus or irony. Western progressive Leftists such as Kimmy would probably argue that it is better to teach "irony". Western right-wing people such as Argus would probably say that we should teach "calculus". Edited July 7, 2014 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) There's one for Mark Steyn: fewer people nowadays understand calculus, and irony. Irony? Confusing. Math? Hard. More and more, people believe that numerical laws are determined by the words of the Prophet. Edited July 7, 2014 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted July 7, 2014 Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 It is hard to understand a limit: you're not exactly 5 foot 4, (64 inches) because you're more exactly 64.3 inches. Or, 64.36 inches. And it is hard to understand irony because it is the universe who sees our inexactitude. It isn't that hard to understand that the topic of "Religion and Politics" should contain something about religion and politics. Your OP has nothing to do with religion/politics regardless of your silly baffle-gab. To return to my OP, I don't know whether it is more important/useful to teach calculus or irony. Western progressive Leftists such as Kimmy would probably argue that it is better to teach "irony". Western right-wing people such as Argus would probably say that we should teach "calculus". More baffle-gab... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Macadoo Posted July 7, 2014 Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 It isn't that hard to understand that the topic of "Religion and Politics" should contain something about religion and politics. Your OP has nothing to do with religion/politics regardless of your silly baffle-gab. More baffle-gab... Maybe he's having a stroke......someone trace the IP and send an ambulance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 It is hard to understand a limit: you're not exactly 5 foot 4, (64 inches) because you're more exactly 64.3 inches. Or, 64.36 inches. And it is hard to understand irony because it is the universe who sees our inexactitude. ===== To return to my OP, I don't know whether it is more important/useful to teach calculus or irony. Western progressive Leftists such as Kimmy would probably argue that it is better to teach "irony". Western right-wing people such as Argus would probably say that we should teach "calculus". I would prefer that students have at least a basic grasp of both scientific and literary concepts. But if I have to choose either calculus or irony, I think I have to go with calculus. I think that people (aside from Alannis Morisette and yourself, apparently) get a working grasp of concepts like sarcasm, irony, double-entendre, simile, metaphor, symbolism, motif, allegory, and all manner of other literary techniques, simply by existing in our culture. In days of yore, commoners hid political humor in nursery rhymes... and they didn't have college degrees in the liberal arts. Perhaps if you're new to the workings of literature, you might think the white whale is just a white whale, but by existing in our culture you become familiar with how we tell stories, how we craft humor, and so-on. It's an ongoing process. When I first read "The Watchmen" most of it went over my head, but when I revisited it after the recent movie adaptation I understood a great deal more. And it's not that I received more formal education in the meantime, it's just that I've spent a lot more time pondering the finer points of a lot of other stories since then. Science, on the other hand... when uneducated people decided that they can science, you get... well, you get Jenny McCarthy and vaccines, or Pliny and magnets, for example. People not understanding stuff isn't that big a deal, until their ignorance spreads. One person deciding that vaccines are bad isn't a problem. A hundred people deciding vaccines are bad leads to outbreaks, if their kids go to the same school. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 I would prefer that students have at least a basic grasp of both scientific and literary concepts. But if I have to choose either calculus or irony, I think I have to go with calculus. I believe the OP context is 'knowing'... which presumes on active usage, demonstration, application, etc.. Relatively speaking, just how many people require "knowing calculus" in their 'day-to-day'... in particular, those outside of academia? Now I know we were recently party to one particular MLW member's backpedal/fallback in reaching for "the partial derivative" and not the "full derivative" in attempting to explain his unqualified position/statements... but I'll take the liberty in calling that the MLW exception to the norm! Now... does having known calculus in the past... has that helped shape one's thinking in the here and now where, relatively speaking, few people have any day-to-day practical need for it? I look across my den and see the bookshelf remnants of my undergrad calculus courses... perhaps I missed my major and August1991 has reawakened a lost passion for me. Uhhh.... not likely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 It's like Raaaaaaaain! On your Wedding Day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 Irony is faith and politics is calculated. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 I wonder if we can teach kids ironic calculus or calculated irony. Which is more important? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 Irony Butterfly should be taught to every student who is taking classes and dropping acid, or dropping classes and taking acid. I am not proud of this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 This thread needed some more dated references to the late 1960s. I think irony had its zenith in May 1968 France. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 This thread needed some more dated references to the late 1960s. I think irony had its zenith in May 1968 France. clearly from his last comment, MLW member 'Michael Hardner' was (perhaps still is) either a hippee... or a hippee basher! Given his current board placement, which of these would qualify as the greater irony? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 Given his current board placement, which of these would qualify as the greater irony? The former. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idealisttotheend Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 I say Irony over Calculus. In the end computers can do calculus, they are going to have a hell of a time learning irony, therefore irony is the more needed skill, ironically of course.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted August 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 I say Irony over Calculus. In the end computers can do calculus, they are going to have a hell of a time learning irony, therefore irony is the more needed skill, ironically of course.... I tend to agree, but for a slightly different reason. True, computers can do calculus -but some one has to program the computer to understand irony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted August 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) I would prefer that students have at least a basic grasp of both scientific and literary concepts. But if I have to choose either calculus or irony, I think I have to go with calculus. I think that people (aside from Alannis Morisette and yourself, apparently) get a working grasp of concepts like sarcasm, irony, double-entendre, simile, metaphor, symbolism, motif, allegory, and all manner of other literary techniques.... To be racist or cultural, some Chinese/Asian students learn calculus quickly. But they have trouble understanding irony. Irony is a signal of being Western: check out Russell Peters. ----- Irony Kimmy? Very generously, I will take as a compliment your comparison of me to Alanis Morisette. (Not.) Edited August 9, 2014 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 I think what's interesting to consider about Aigist's proposition is that children are woefully prepared for a world where shoe monkey purple horse token. If parents would just instill some badger ratchet, maybe Islam would flying dinosaur turtle. You must be some kind of commie to talk like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 To be racist or cultural, some Chinese/Asian students learn calculus quickly. But they have trouble understanding irony.Irony requires a near native fluency in the language. People who lack the fluency will likely assume they misunderstood the meaning of the words rather than see them as ironic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Irony Butterfly should be taught to every student who is taking classes and dropping acid, or dropping classes and taking acid. I am not proud of this post. My friend recently stated, "I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy". I thought that to be a calculated deduction and ironic in that I agreed with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Irony Kimmy? Very generously, I will take as a compliment your comparison of me to Alanis Morisette. (Not.) Ironically, August, you've once again provided an example of why that comparison is apt. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) I would prefer that students have at least a basic grasp of both scientific and literary concepts. But if I have to choose either calculus or irony, I think I have to go with calculus. Kimmy, given these deaths in Paris, I go with Irony. These backward heathens must understand first Satire, and then Irony. Edited January 9, 2015 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Kimmy, given these deaths in Paris, I go with Irony. These backward heathens must understand first Satire, and then Irony. I'm skeptical. I don't think the problem is that they don't *understand* satire. Just that they don't *like* it. (To be honest I'm not sure that a cartoon of Mohammed being sodomized by a pig is either "ironic" or "satirical" in any case. I have a highly developed wit, and yet the "satire" of this eludes me. Truthfully, it seems more like blasphemy for the sake of blasphemy, which I am completely ok with, but trying to class it up by calling it "satire" seems like putting lipstick on .. uh, a pig.) -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freekundli Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 ... Is this a joke thread? calculus... I am thinking same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 (edited) Given Kellie Leitch's recent suggestion, this thread seems meaningful. I am thinking same.No, it is not. ==== If I were looking for a way to test immigrants for "Western values", I would test their ability to understand "sarcasm". And then better, "irony". I would grant entry to anyone who furtively looked aside at the question about irony. If you can't understand irony, you're not Western. Edited September 18, 2016 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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