kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[Keepitsimple]

The UN has not declared Hamas a terrorist state. Not like they have with Al Qaeda, IS, Boko Harem and a few other groups.

So, you guys are all wrong.

Well - you're right about the UN....but the entire European Union, Australia, Canada, the US, Egypt, Ukraine have declared them a terrorist organization.....that's pretty "international" as the original poster claimed.

[Hudson Jones]

Well - you're right about the UN....but the entire European Union, Australia, Canada, the US, Egypt, Ukraine have declared them a terrorist organization.....that's pretty "international" as the original poster claimed.

That's not international. You have listed a tiny percentage of the 193 member nations in the UN.

I for one, thought Hamas was declared a terrorist group by UN, but then I was corrected just like you guys were.

[Moonlight Graham]

Israel bars Amnesty [international], Human Rights Watch workers from Gaza

Israel has been refusing to allow employees of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch to enter the Gaza Strip in order to conduct their own independent investigations into the fighting, using various bureaucratic excuses.

Both human rights organizations have been trying to obtain permission from the Civil Administration to enter Gaza since July 7. Two different reasons have been cited for the refusals: The first is that the Erez border crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip is closed and no entry permits are being granted until further notice; the second is neither group is registered with the Social Affairs Ministry as a humanitarian aid organization.

In fact, Erez was open throughout most of Israel’s Operation Protective Edge, which began on July 8. Among others, journalists, United Nations employees and Palestinians needing medical care or returning from abroad (with special permits), were allowed to pass through.

...

Human Right Watch investigators have been barred from entering Gaza via the Erez crossing since 2006, while Amnesty’s people have been barred since June 2012. Until the Morsi government in Egypt was brought down, they would enter Gaza from Egyptian territory through the Rafah crossing. On December 6, 2012, the international department of the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration (which is part of the Civil Administration) told Amnesty that it would no longer process its requests to enter the Strip because it only handles requests from groups registered as aid groups with either the Israel Foreign Ministry or the Social Affairs Ministry.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.611015

Pretty sure Israel could get away with genocide at this point, which is ironic.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Moonlight Graham

[jbg]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.611015

Pretty sure Israel could get away with genocide at this point, which is ironic.

Is Israel likely to start lopping off heads because someone is the wrong sect? Get real.

[Keepitsimple]

That's not international. You have listed a tiny percentage of the 193 member nations in the UN.

I for one, thought Hamas was declared a terrorist group by UN, but then I was corrected just like you guys were.

The UN itself is all screwed up with so many conflicts of interest......so think again on your position, Here's a list of those countries that have declared various groups to be terrorist organizations. Note the lack of declarations on many known terrorist organizations - Al Shabaab. Surprisingly, only Canada and the US list the Taliban as terroristic. No surprisingly, Middle East countries have declined to declare Al Queda and their various flavours terrorist organizations. Just think - if the UN was actually capable of declaring Hamas a terrorist organization - that would fly in the face of their hundreds of anti-Israel condemnations.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations

[Moonlight Graham]

Is Israel likely to start lopping off heads because someone is the wrong sect? Get real.

I never said they would commit genocide, I said they could probably get away with it though.

They don't lop off heads but they do launch missiles at schools and hospitals and denied Gazan people/children access to food beyond a minimum number of calories. Food sanctions: another fantastic innovation by the Israeli government! And oh yeah they got away with it.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Moonlight Graham

[Hudson Jones]

The UN itself is all screwed up with so many conflicts of interest......so think again on your position, Here's a list of those countries that have declared various groups to be terrorist organizations. Note the lack of declarations on many known terrorist organizations - Al Shabaab. Surprisingly, only Canada and the US list the Taliban as terroristic. No surprisingly, Middle East countries have declined to declare Al Queda and their various flavours terrorist organizations. Just think - if the UN was actually capable of declaring Hamas a terrorist organization - that would fly in the face of their hundreds of anti-Israel condemnations.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations

The UN has declared numerous groups terrorist organizations, including Al Queda and most recently, ISIS. So they are capable if they see fit. They obviously don't agree that Hamas should be considered one. So to suggest that Hamas is an "internationally recognized a terrorist organization" is pure misinformation.

Hamas is no angel group and has carried out terrible acts, however, their terrible acts come nowhere close to what the State of Israel has committed in the occupied territories and Lebanon.

[Moonlight Graham]

The UN has declared numerous groups terrorist organizations, including Al Queda and most recently, ISIS. So they are capable if they see fit. They obviously don't agree that Hamas should be considered one. So to suggest that Hamas is an "internationally recognized a terrorist organization" is pure misinformation.

From wikipedia:

Hamas or its military wing is designated as a terrorist organization by Australia,^[10]Canada,^[11] Egypt,^[12] the European Union,^[13][14] Israel, Japan,^[15] the United Kingdom,^[16] and the United States,^[17] and is banned in Jordan.^[18] It is not considered a terrorist organization by Iran, Russia,^[19] Turkey,^[20] or China,^{[21][22][23][24]} South Africa, and some Arab nations

I'd consider that to be international recognition. The UN doesn't encompass everything "international". Beyond this, there's little doubt that Hamas has used terror on many occasions.

[Hudson Jones]

From wikipedia:

I'd consider that to be international recognition. The UN doesn't encompass everything "international".

I wouldn't. Those are just a fraction of countries in the world. Here is what the counter-terrorism official at the UN says:

London, April 14, – A senior UN official says the threat of terrorism will be diminished in the Middle East once the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is resolved. Jean Paul Laborde, adviser to the UN Under-Secretary General for Political Affairs, said on Thursday that terrorism has deteriorated since the September 11 attacks and will not diminish unless the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is resolved.

He rejected the idea that the Islamic Resistance Movement of Hamas is a terrorist organization and called for talks and dialogue with this Palestinian entity.

“Hamas is not a terrorist organization in the United Nations…we should talk to Hamas because once the Israeli-Palestinian issue is resolved, the threat of terrorism will diminish.”

I agree with him.

This is who the UN lists as terrorist organizations:

al-nusra front

al-qaeda

boko-harem

ISIS

Kata'lib Hezbollah

Beyond this, there's little doubt that Hamas has used terror on many occasions.

Fully agree. Especially in the past when they regularly engaged in suicide attacks that targeted civilians. So have many other groups and states, including Israel who uses "violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims".

However, when it comes to defining internationally recognized terrorist group, it's wrong to pretend that a small percentage of countries in the world represent the international community.

[Smallc]

You agree with him. What a surprise.

[bush_cheney2004]

Elect terrorists....get bombed...not complicated.

[Rue]

To treat the wounded children ... that they wounded ... and we're supposed to applaud the IDF for that?

.

...yes and you are supposed to condemn Hamas for placing these children in harm's way to start with instead of blatantly ignoring the fact that Hamas put them in harm's way.

[Rue]

Stop trying to equate Hamas to the Israeli government.

Why? That is exactly what you, Jacee, Hudson Jones and all the other Hamas apologists do on this forum.

You define Hamas not as a terrorist group but as a legitimate government involved in legitimate government activities. You pretend its shooting missiles at civilians, placing its people in harm's way and breaking every international law is non terrorist and simply being defensive to Israel terrorism.

So of course he is going to respond to that anaology.

No you do not dictate the terms in which Israel can be defended or discussed by JBG, me or anyone else you disagree with. This is not the West Bank. You don't get to kill us because we don't agree with your extremism.

[Rue]

1-I never said they would commit genocide, I said they could probably get away with it though.

2-...they do launch missiles at schools and hospitals

3-and denied Gazan people/children access to food beyond a minimum number of calories. Food sanctions: another fantastic innovation by the Israeli government! And oh yeah they got away with it.

In regards to 1, your coment is baseless and merely shows your subjective bias and smeering all Israelis fighting for their right to live free of terror as Nazis. Why not just call them that instead of that back-handed reference? Go on finish the insult. Why would Israelis get away with genocide? What is that a reference to them controlling the press by chance? Oh no wait is that a reference to their control of the world? Yes that's right, Israelis have nothing better to do every day then planning the mass suicide of Palestinians. Your comment is hateful, without basis, and simply is a passive aggressive or couched insult at all Israelis. Before you accuse Israelis of being lovers of genocide look at your own moral values. What you think it takes a moral man to throw out such insults? You think you are in a position to be so righteous you can do that?

In regards to 2, yes they launched missiles at schools, hospitals, precisely because that is where Hamas choose to set up their attacks from. How is it you deliberately miss that part. What you want to play the game Jacee does and pretend Israel operates in a vacuum and for no reason attacks schools and hospitals?

Will you mention that Hamas uses those schools and hosptials as attack sites and stacks bombs and missiles and weapons there and deliberately engages in this tactic to get their people killed in the line of fire so they can be paraded on the news as propaganda props? Hmmmm? You want to read out their manual that says its great to get their people killed, that it will win over sympathy? Where are you when Hamas preaches in its charter and speeches that its great to die and Allah will be proud? Where are you then? Or does that matter and you too want to play the game of moral selectivity and outrage...well?

Do you come on this forum pointing out what Hamas does by using schools, homes and hospitals is a direct violation of international law and is immoral? Do you?

In regards to 3, interesting you quote a web-site headline but skips what it went on to say:

"The Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010, according to files the defence ministry released on Wednesday under a court order.

Israel says it never limited how many calories were available to Gaza, but critics claimed the document was proof the government limited food supplies to put pressure on Hamas.

At the height of the blockade Israel also maintained a list of foods that were permitted and banned from Gaza.

Major Guy Inbar, an Israeli military spokesman, said the calculation, based on a person's average requirement of 2,300 calories a day, was meant to identify warning signs to help avoid a humanitarian crisis, and that it was never used to restrict the flow of food.

The analysis included adjustments for local farm products as well as an assessment of the kinds of food imports needed to sustain the population."

Right we know how that works. You remove the headline from the actual article and omit the other side of the story. Right. There's a way to debate with credibility.

[Rue]

However, when it comes to defining internationally recognized terrorist group, it's wrong to pretend that a small percentage of countries in the world represent the international community.

Its also meaningless and illogical to argue that a group is not terrorist because the UN does not say it is or because a "majority of nations" did not say so.

Zip over your head.

Terrorism is not defined because you say so, a majority says so, the UN says so. It is defined by the actions and conduct of its followers.

In your world morality is defined not by the consequence of one's actions but when people agree with your subjective opinion.

Its why you have zero credibility coming on this forum. You call for the wiping out of Israel and Zionism as a cancer and then have the nerve to lecture others on what terrorism is let alone trying deny Hamas engages in terrorism not just against Israeli but its own people.

You come on this board to apologize for Hamas and try restate their terrorism as something other then that.

Its tactics, its deliberate violation of international law, its placing its civilians in harm's way, its conducting murders on the street without trials against those it accuses of being Israeli collaborators, its beating of Palestinian civilians who tried to flee their homes after Hamas shot from those same homes, its killing of a Palestinian family whose crime was to conduct a wedding and play music Hamas considered un-Islam like, its killing and beating of political opponents, its charter, its speeches, its daily tv and radio broadcasts, all prove blatantly its terrorism.

Spin away. It means nothing.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Rue

[jacee]

...yes and you are supposed to condemn Hamas for placing these children in harm's way to start with instead of blatantly ignoring the fact that Hamas put them in harm's way.

Hamas put them in Israel's way?

Gaza is in Israel's way.

And Israel chose to wound those children.

And then try to fix them.

Kinda boggles the mind.

.

[marcus]

Why? That is exactly what you, Jacee, Hudson Jones and all the other Hamas apologists do on this forum.

You define Hamas not as a terrorist group but as a legitimate government involved in legitimate government activities. You pretend its shooting missiles at civilians, placing its people in harm's way and breaking every international law is non terrorist and simply being defensive to Israel terrorism.

So of course he is going to respond to that anaology.

No you do not dictate the terms in which Israel can be defended or discussed by JBG, me or anyone else you disagree with. This is not the West Bank. You don't get to kill us because we don't agree with your extremism.

You are fumbling into another one of your diatribe with your melodramatic, unnecessary, untrue comments such as the last sentence.

Stop being that person.

Just so we are clear; I despise many things about Hamas. Including their mafia like treatment of Palestinians where they execute their own without any due process. I despise the fact that they have used children to dig tunnels, in which many of them died as a result. Of course, I also despised their actions in the past, including suicide attacks where they targeted civilians. That said, their shortcommings doesn't legitimize any group or state to do what Israel did. Namely, to collectively punish a group of people. To kill innocent women and children. Israel's actions cannot be excused. Not according to my morality and not according to international law.

[marcus]

Its also meaningless and illogical to argue that a group is not terrorist because the UN does not say it is or because a "majority of nations" did not say so.

Zip over your head.

No. Zip over your head.

Hamas is not an internationally recognized terrorist group. This is not about what your definition of a terrorist group is or mine, or Hudson's or anyone else's. This is about the misinformation that Hamas is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization. They are not.

[Moonlight Graham]

In regards to 1, your coment is baseless and merely shows your subjective bias and smeering all Israelis fighting for their right to live free of terror as Nazis. Why not just call them that instead of that back-handed reference? Go on finish the insult. Why would Israelis get away with genocide? What is that a reference to them controlling the press by chance? Oh no wait is that a reference to their control of the world? Yes that's right, Israelis have nothing better to do every day then planning the mass suicide of Palestinians. Your comment is hateful, without basis, and simply is a passive aggressive or couched insult at all Israelis. Before you accuse Israelis of being lovers of genocide look at your own moral values. What you think it takes a moral man to throw out such insults? You think you are in a position to be so righteous you can do that?

What the bloody heck are you talking about??? I'm not insulting anybody, I'm NOT saying Israel has any intention or desire whatsoever to commit genocide. My point was that they seemingly can get away with virtually anything with little response from the international community beyond rhetoric. Genocide was just an example of the something horrific they could probably get away with The IDF could probably shoot 1000 Palestinian babies in the mouth and get away with that too on the international stage, but i'm not saying they'd ever want to do it that.

In regards to 2, yes they launched missiles at schools, hospitals, precisely because that is where Hamas choose to set up their attacks from. How is it you deliberately miss that part. What you want to play the game Jacee does and pretend Israel operates in a vacuum and for no reason attacks schools and hospitals?

Will you mention that Hamas uses those schools and hosptials as attack sites and stacks bombs and missiles and weapons there and deliberately engages in this tactic to get their people killed in the line of fire so they can be paraded on the news as propaganda props? Hmmmm? You want to read out their manual that says its great to get their people killed, that it will win over sympathy? Where are you when Hamas preaches in its charter and speeches that its great to die and Allah will be proud? Where are you then? Or does that matter and you too want to play the game of moral selectivity and outrage...well?

Do you come on this forum pointing out what Hamas does by using schools, homes and hospitals is a direct violation of international law and is immoral? Do you?

Yes hiding in schools/hospitals and launching attacks from there is immoral, but that doesn't mean it's ok for the IDF to target them.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Moonlight Graham

[Rue]

Moonlight you again responded identically as you did earlier and I already expressed my views on why I think your comments are hateful and inappropriate. Israel hasn't got away with anything. Everything it does is under full public exposure is it not or are you saying you found out about what it did secretly/

How did Israeli get away with anything if you and so many like you are on the webs criticizing what Israel does?

You make no sense. If anything the UN, the world press, lambast Israel every chance they get with a double standard they will not use on Hamas.

In fact its become so absurd we have an openly bias anti Israeli law professor in Canada now professing he will as an impartial and neutral investigator decide if Israel committed any war crimes but will not consider what Hamas did.

In fact we have sheer insanity prevailing as now the arm chair geniuses of the world and the UN claim Israel should have supplied Hamas with an Iron Dome system.

Its passed absurd but your bias selectively sees what it wants to see and that is Hamas as a victim and Israel as the victimizer and no regard for Israeli citizens or Palestinian citizens.

As for your second comment, yes I know. In your world Israel sits on its ass and does nothing while Hamas kidnaps its citizens and kills them, sends suicide bombers in across the border and launches missiles at it daily causing 2.3rd's of its population to be unable to work.

Sure in your world Israel must do nothing as terrorists try attack its very existence and right to exist.

Can you finish what you started Moonlight. Its easy to say what Israel should not do sitting far from the direct line of fire. Tell me Moonlight should Israel do anything?

Would you have me believe if someone pointed a gun at your head from next door you would no nothing because the person pointing the gun at you

is pointing his gun standing behind his wife, child, etc.? Really now. In your world you would just die. You would make no effort to assure that this man

got no weapons in the future and you would make no move to kill him and maybe have to kill his wife but save his sons?

its all so easy in your world of black and white. Morality is not relative is it Moonlight. There's simply whatever Israel does is wrong, whatever Hamas does, is well never mind let's change the subject.

[Rue]

Marcus your response to me has zero credibility. Given your previous comments about Hamas and your refusal to link what Israel does to what Hamas initiates necessarily means you have zero credibility with me.

In your criticism you focus only on what Israel does wrong. You refuse to acknowledge it has the right to defend itself and it would not be taking the actions it does/did if Hamas did not choose to initiate illegal international crimes.

Even in your alleged acknowledgment of what Hamas did, you deny they are terrorists.

You make no mention of their deliberately placing their people in harm's way, using schools, mosques, hospitals, all international war crimes, all acts of terror.

You acknowledge they execute people without trial and use children to dig tunnels both international war crimes but don't call these behaviours examples of terrorism and that makes your response to me a joke. A bloody joke.

You are a Hamas apologist whose agenda is to select Israel for criticism and accuse it of being terrorist while ignoring Hamas and apologizing that they are not terrorist despite showing in your response the very actions of terror they commit.

Save your responses for someone else. I know what your position is and that lip service is absolute b.s.

As for the accusations of melodrama, ironically you are in fact melodramatic for saying I am melodramatic.

Zip over your head again. Lol and the lol does not mean I am being melodramatic just laughing.

Emotions are for Al Pacino in Scarface. When he says Say Hello To My Leetle Friends.." that's melodrama. He's the man.

I would never claim to emote. The closest I come to emotion when responding to you is burping when I write. Your words give me indigestion.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Rue

[Rue]

Jacee what boggles my mind is your state of denial as to what Hamas has done and stands for.

Gaza is not in Israel's way.

Gaza City has existed for thousands of years and was never in any Jew's way. What a stupid thing to say. Jews have always lived in Gaza City since Biblical days and until 1949 when Gamel Nasser created the Gaza Strip a twenty five square mile corridor where he imprisoned Muslims who chose to leave Palestine because the Arab League of Nations told them to leave and it would only be temporary until the Arab League nations wiped out the Jews of Palestine.

When the Arab League failed and ran like cowards back to their countries Nasser created this prison so these displaced peoples would not come into Egypt. In fact the front line Arab League states, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon as well as the other Arab League nations of Morrocco,Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, refused to allow the Muslims they told to leave Palestine come to their nations as citizens. Only Jordan offered automatic citizenship up until 1967. Jordan always called itself the Palestinian state and offered any Palestinian as long as they were not Jewish citizenship.

In fact these Arab League nations arrested and forced the Muslims they told to leave Palestine into camps. They told the world in speech after speech which are today public domain that they would hold these Muslims hostage until the world disbanded Israel.

The actual term "Palestinian" was ridiculed by the Palestinian groups seeking a country in Jordan and Israel. Arafat et al sneered and spat at that name.

They only began using that name in 1967 after they failed to assassinate King Hussein of Jordan and seize Jordan for Arafat's projected nation.

In your world we pretend all of that never happened.

We pretend an we deny.

For example, we pretend that the people today who refer to themselves as Palestinian are in fact descended from those Palestinians who fled Israel.

In fact the vast majority of them are not and never were. They are descended from Muslims who moved to Palestine and in fact displaced Palestinians.

As for Gaza you spin. You spin because you can't admit Hamas exists. If you did, then you would have to acknowledge Gaza and Palestinians have never been Israel's problem-Hamas and terrorists are.

You pretend and deny because you can not admit that when Hamas was not a terrorist organization its charities were in fact funded by Israel and there was peace and co-existence including the building of roads, schools, hospitals, mosques, homes and most importantly Palestinians from Gaza went into Israel to work proving that your idiotic comment that Gaza was an obstacle is bull sheeyit.

Hamas is the obstacle. Hamas and its embracing of a charter calling for a one world Muslim caliphate dhumma that runs the world is.

Hamas's charter that calls on the extermination of not just Israelis but Jews world wide is.

Hamas and its creator the Muslim Brotherhood and its other spin off ISIS is the obstacle and not just to Israel but the free world.

What is mind boggling is that you continue to pretend Israel for no reason killed Palestinians and that Hamas has no moral culpability for their deaths,

What is boggling is you come on this board like the other Hamas apologists unable to acknowledge the reality of Hamas. You can't even print its name on the board when you respond.

[GostHacked]

Who are the Hamas apologists?? I WANT NAMES !!!!

[marcus]

B. Michael for Haaretz: "On August 20, Mr. Netanyahu was recorded on film expressing his deep shock at the beheading of an American journalist by the knife of an Islamic State murderer. Truly, a wicked deed. On August 19, just one day before that horrific execution, the prime minister approved the killing of an 8-month-old baby together with his mother, in the hope that the father would be with them and also be killed. The assassination was carried out. Success was partial; baby and mother were crushed, the fate of the father is unknown."

Death of Israeli child reveals Netanyahu's hypocrisy

Netanyahu recently told two U.S. congressman that Hamas, Hezbollah and other Islamist groups are defying all international norms. So said the man who has just finished killing some 2,100 people.

[Rue]

Atta boy Marcus Another false allegation. In fact the article you think you quote refers to an inference not an actual fact.Nowhere did Netanyahu say he wanted any mother or child killed. Nowhere. What Netanyahu referred to was that the IDF had targeted for death Dief one of Hamas' lead terrorists and had hoped to have killed him.At no time did he state he hoped the wife of this man or her baby were killed. You know the article never said that. It refers to his decision to target him no one else..

You infer that if his home is targeted with him in it, it necessarily means the IDF wanted to kill his wife and child. No it does not. If this man wants to engage in terrorism, i.e., attacking the mothers and babies of Israel and placing his own people directly in the line of fire to die, then he knows he is a target and if he chooses to keep his family with him knowing he has been targeted for death then they die because of his decision to keep them with him.

In my world only cowards keep their wife and children as shields as they try kill other children and mothers. In your world its just fine,

In your world a man can murder and engage in terror if he keeps his children and wife or other loved ones near by. It gives him a shield and you then depict him not as a coward and terrorist but victim. Such sanctimonious bull crap.

In your world you repeat one sided articles that assign personal moral culpability to Netanyahu not Hamas for the death of Palestinian civilians because in your world terrorists like Hamas get a pass if they use the homes of their own people and use them shields.

In your world terrorists operate without any consequence if they hide behind their own families or citizens. They have zero moral culpability.

As for the pathetic attempt to mislead and lie and suggest Netanyahu stated he wanted to kill a mother and a baby, I would expect that kind of technique to be used by you.

Yes sir. Netanyahu is a baby killer.

Not a peep about Hamas and a pathetic attempt to demonize Netanyahu. Say now, that's never been done before on this forum.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Rue