kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[Army Guy]

So if I blow up your house with you inside, I can claim in court that your home and not you were the target?

If my house was a media center or communications nod then yes....if the bad guys were launching missles in my yard then yes, a military force would be within its rights to destroy my home, why is that so difficult to understand...

[Bonam]

The killing score will still be front and center of the discussion. The Palestinians will be emphasising it ( if there are any Palestinians left) and the Israelis will be trying to explain it.

Most political pundits will declare a tie - the same as the last few wars and that Lebanon expedition. I think Hamas "wins" a tie and continues to exist. It will probably play for that tie. Unless this conflict results in a genocide of the Palestinian people (Israel wins by default - nobody left) there will remain elements prepared to do what they can to fight the Israelis. Same old, same old.

Why the repeated allusions to genocide and extermination? This is ridiculous, absurd, hyperbole. The Palestinian population has only ever increased throughout the entire duration of the conflict. The death toll is tiny compared to unrest in neighboring Syria or Iraq. And yet people keep bringing up genocide, no Palestinians left, etc etc. Seriously, get a grip.

[dre]

International law does not say in its international context that a sovereign nation must obey the same laws terrorists won't.

Can you ellaborate on this? Iv read quite a few of the patchwork of treaties and conventions that make up international law, and theres very few cases where a state is allowed to ignore them simply because its dealing with non-state actors. There is some gray areas such as the treatment of detainees etc, but not many.

Some sort of cite would be good.

[Army Guy]

Right, but if Hamas took out an Israeli power station, we'd never hear the end of it.

Yeah through elections. Go figure. Why does Israel hate democracy? And you are not making Hamas suffer, you are only making the people suffer. And that is not going to make the Palestinians move away from Hamas, it will move them closer to it.

You'll never hear about it , because Israel has very tight security on such targets...Is that what you think Israel hates democracy, is that why they moved out of Gaza, and allowed Hamas to take control over it's own future....Is this fact or not.....if it is true then how do they hate Democrazy.....

Hamas is the people, they elected them and if they don't like it they need to change it....ot are you telling me their government can not be removed....happens all the time in democracies.....I think your missing the piont here about conflicts they do not get resolved until one side decides to surrender or comprise the other side is fighting for....the only way to do that is for the people to force their government into action.....or live with the consquences.....

Suffer enough and the people will move away from any beliefs they have regarding the war.....Have we seen any of this on a mass scale by the people of either side......i hav'nt....do you see any change from either side.....me niether so the killing will go on....and if you think it will drive them closer to Hamas so be it....but one day they will hit the tipping piont......Isreal has already shown them serveral times they have a tipping piont , they send in their military and bad things happen.....

[Army Guy]

That is not a requirement for occupation.

What occupation ?

[Rue]

Here is an article by Phi Klein that does a far better job than me explaining why the score Big Guy is keeping is meaningless.

it can be found at :http://washingtonexaminer.com/five-reasons-why-comparing-israeli-and-palestinian-death-totals-is-a-misleading-way-to-judge-the-conflict/article/2550930 and is entitled:

"Five reasons why comparing Israeli and Palestinian death totals is a misleading way to judge the conflict"

In it he specifically addresses the misleading tactic of comparing dead Israelis and Palestinians.

He states these basic reasons why the statistics are meaningless or inaccurate:

1-The comparative death totals dn't address the morality of the deaths-a point I have been arguing from the get go. He provides the example of comparing American deaths compared to German deaths during World War Two and says, since .6 yp 8.8 Germans died abt about 418,500 Americans died, and a ration of 16-21 Germans dead per each American killed using Big Guy's exercise, and equating morality by volume of deaths does this then make what Germany did morally acceptable in WW2? Would anyone argue that?

2. The death toll Big Guy relies on does not differentiate civilians from terrorists. The civilian death toll is in fact inflated with terrorist deaths, Klein pointed out that data from B'Tsalem found that between 2000 when the 2nd intifada was launched and May 2014, of the 7, 561 reported Palestinian deaths, 2,384 deaths were of combatants engaged in attack on the IDF, 683 were killed by Hamas not Israel, 288 were targetted killings of actual terrorists by Israel, 702 were killed but its unknown whether they were involved in the fighting, This shows that the numbers Bug Guy is relying on and blindly accepting as civilian deaths is ridiculous. He has no way of knowing that. He has no way of knowing of those dead how many are in fact civilians.

3. Big Guy's score keeping ignores the number of rockets shot at Israel, and the fact that it forces the majority of the country to have to stop and run to shelters and that if the country doesn't spend a fortune on the Iron Dome system it would be seriously damaged not to mention this system is not foolproof. His stats do not consider the psychological and impact of these missiles on Israel citizens.

4. Putting citizens in harm's way to die is a deliberate, pre-meditated and well thought out exercise by Hamas to maximize then number of deaths so as to use videos and pictures of these deaths as propaganda props. Hamas in this regard poses live Hamas terrorists as dead people only to show up in other videos suddenly alive again. It has passed off old videos as brand new. It stages death photos. Big Guy's stats do not attribute the deaths to Hamas delibrately ordering civilians into schools and then shooting missiles from those schools and then not letting the people out. It does not reflect the invasion of Palestinian homes to be used as launch sites without the permission of the residents. It does not reflect the deliberate tactic of shooting at the IDF on the ground in the heat of action from inside homes, schools or next to them so that when the IDF shoots back at the shots to defend itself it then might kill people caught in the line of fire as Hamas runs. The stats do not reflect the fact that IDF soldiers are dying on the ground because they are not shooting back to avoid civilians dying and they are not asking for air cover to avoid killing civilians, The stats do not reflect the phone calls, leaflets, early warning bangs from knock on the roof plastic missiles to give warings of 5 minutes to get out of buildings about to be taken down. It gives no recognition of the fact that while Hamas deliberately goes out of the way to kill its people. the IDF is trying its best not to.

He has pointed out if Israel truly did not care about the civilians of Gaza it would have just flattened the entire area. It has the technology to completely take down all of Gaza with explosives but has not.

Now when Big Guy you use your stats keep this in mind. Abbas, not just Israel, but Abbas and Egypt all agreed to a ceasefire. Hamas refused saying it will not stop until it is given 100% what it demands. What Jacee has deliberately ignored is that its conditions for a treaty include its right to remain at war with Israel but be allowed to have the blockade lifted so it can bring in more weapons.

Why would Jacee think Hamas is reasonable asking it be able to remain at war with Israel and have the blockade lifted/ What insanity is that?

She wants to talk of a 10 year truce? Really. Arafat stated to all, treaties with Muslims are meaningless. Muhammed said Arafaf showed you can sign treaties but then break them whenever you want. Hamas has repeated the same thing stating the 10 year truce would be used for it to rearm and it would reserve the right to end the truce earlier once re-armed and ready to fight again. So how is that a peace intiiative? What world does she live in and you live in where you are so selective with the actual situation on the ground?

[Big Guy]

...

. And yet people keep bringing up genocide, no Palestinians left, etc etc. Seriously, get a grip.

Thank you for your post.

My position is that the wiping out of all Palestinians would be the final solution and the area would be at peace. Would you not agree? Well then how about 1/2 the Palestinians or 3/4 or ...? How many do you think have to be killed before Israel could guarantee that there will be no more rockets coming into Israel from Gaza?

Will the end justify the means?

[Army Guy]

That is a question for the Palestinians to answer, how far are they willing to suffer before stopping....

How much will peace cost both sides....

[Big Guy]

Here is an article by Phi Klein that does a far better job than me explaining why the score Big Guy is keeping is meaningless.

...

I suggest doubt that it is meaningless to the 1200 Palestinian civilians killed so far.

I see those posters believing the Israelis are the good guys and those who believe they are the bad guys continue to use selective published opinions to argue their case. Good for all of you. But who are you trying to convince?

"He has pointed out if Israel truly did not care about the civilians of Gaza it would have just flattened the entire area. It has the technology to completely take down all of Gaza with explosives but has not." There may be other reasons why Israel has not flattened the entire area - yet. It is always an option (as I have stated and been criticized for) but what would be the reaction of the rest of the world?

How much financial and other support would the USA continue to give to Israel?

What if another nation used that as an excuse to do the same to Israel?

So I guess the Israelis "care about the civilians of Gaza" and they show this by killing just a few thousands and not all of them?

I hope the USA cares about Canada in a different way.

[jbg]

Shooo. Go away. Buzz off. Go irritate somebody else.

Sorry, I am not interested in engaging in any dialogue with you or your opinions.

Isn't this cut and pasted quite a few times? Here, here, and here ?

[bush_cheney2004]

...I hope the USA cares about Canada in a different way.

Not clear what this means...if Canada or terrorists based in Canada were launching rockets at the U.S., the area would be flattened in short order with little concern over body count.

[bush_cheney2004]

If you need a tunnel built...hire Hamas !

[Big Guy]

Isn't this cut and pasted quite a few times? Here, here, and here ?

Sometimes you have to repeat a message that does not seem to be received. I respond to posters who comment on my posts. That is the essence of electronic bulletin boards. Somebody comments on one of my posts then I respond. If they don't then I don't. That is only being polite.

[Big Guy]

Not clear what this means...if Canada or terrorists based in Canada were launching rockets at the U.S., the area would be flattened in short order with little concern over body count.

Fortunately the USA has an elected administration which speaks for the population - not self appointed anonymous internet phantoms.

I do not disagree with your opinion. It is quite possible that there are some in Washington who would rationalize killing innocent Canadian civilians to save innocent Canadian citizens. It worked in Vietnam, Iraq, Somalia and Afghanistan - didn't it?

God bless America!!!!

BTW ;

Looks like somebody else is like Big Guy and keeping a score card on this Palestinian – Israeli battle. It appears that the UN which is supposed to represent the rest of the world has just accused BOTH Hamas and Israel of war crimes;

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-conflict-israel-hamas-both-committing-war-crimes-un-official-says-1.2723446

Looks to me like the Hamas policy of playing for a tie is working. They appear to be happy with being equated with Israel for their approach to this war. Go figure.

Stay tuned for highlights of the first half and the half time entertainment during the next cease fire.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Big Guy

[GostHacked]

Hamas is the people, they elected them and if they don't like it they need to change it....ot are you telling me their government can not be removed....happens all the time in democracies.....I think your missing the piont here about conflicts they do not get resolved until one side decides to surrender or comprise the other side is fighting for....the only way to do that is for the people to force their government into action.....or live with the consquences.....

So, the Harper government IS the people?

[WestCoastRunner]

No sympathy for the fathers?

Did I offend your delicate sense of equality?

And let's get real here. ln times of war, men are either shot dead, taken hostage, left for dead, or off fighting the battles. The women are left behind to fend for the kids. So, let's not get too offended about this statement.

[Hal 9000]

Did I offend your delicate sense of equality?

And let's get real here. ln times of war, men are either shot dead, taken hostage, left for dead, or off fighting the battles. The women are left behind to fend for the kids. So, let's not get too offended about this statement.

So...lets feel sorry for the women? Seriously? That's classic.

P.S - you forgot set on fire, dragged behind vehicles and beheaded - Lol.

[WestCoastRunner]

So...lets feel sorry for the women? Seriously? That's classic.

P.S - you forgot set on fire, dragged behind vehicles and beheaded - Lol.

LOL???

Not a laughing matter. And you have a problem feeling sorry for the women and children? I really don't understand what you are getting at it here and why you find my post so offensive? Are you just beating up on me personally?

[Bonam]

Did I offend your delicate sense of equality?

And let's get real here. ln times of war, men are either shot dead, taken hostage, left for dead, or off fighting the battles. The women are left behind to fend for the kids. So, let's not get too offended about this statement.

Oh noes. They're left behind with the kids. So much worse than being shot dead, taken hostage, and left for dead! Someone in another thread mentioned that your signature is indicative of mysandry, and it's starting to sound like they were right.

[WestCoastRunner]

Oh noes. They're left behind with the kids. So much worse than being shot dead, taken hostage, and left for dead! Someone in another thread mentioned that your signature is indicative of mysandry, and it's starting to sound like they were right.

I was speaking reality in times of war. Surely you don't think I am speaking against men. I had a dad (who fought in ww II) have a son and a lover.

"Misandry can be manifested in numerous ways including sexual discrimination, denigration of men, violence against men, and sexual objectification of men"

I have no idea how you can jump from my signature to this hatred towards men (I do like men). It is mind boggling to me but perhaps gives a glimpse into the minds of some of the male members here at this forum.

[Bonam]

I was speaking reality in times of war. Surely you don't think I am speaking against men. I had a dad (who fought in ww II) have a son and a lover.

"Misandry can be manifested in numerous ways including sexual discrimination, denigration of men, violence against men, and sexual objectification of men"

I have no idea how you can jump from my signature to this hatred towards men (I do like men). It is mind boggling to me but perhaps gives a glimpse into the minds of some of the male members here at this forum.

Of the manifestations you listed, one can on the basis of your signature and other statements accuse you of the 2nd (denigration). I made no comment about your signature until you started to also apparently make light of the emotional turmoil that men in wartime experience, which is no less than that of women. At least women "left with the children" in war as you put it can check every day for themselves that their children are safe. Men in war are away from their homes for long periods, powerless to help ensure the safety of their children if they are on an unrelated mission. And on top of this they are, as you put it, being "shot dead" and "taken hostage". Hardly a stress-free environment if I might say so.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Bonam

[WestCoastRunner]

Of the manifestations you listed, one can on the basis of your signature and other statements accuse you of the 2nd (denigration). I made no comment about your signature until you started to also apparently make light of the emotional turmoil that men in wartime experience, which is no less than that of women. At least women "left with the children" in war as you put it can check every day for themselves that their children are safe. Men in war are away from their homes for long periods, powerless to help ensure the safety of their children if they are on an unrelated mission. And on top of this they are, as you put it, being "shot dead" and "taken hostage".so

I assure you, i was not making light of men in war. I was specifically speaking to women caring for their children in times of war. It had nothing to do with men until men brought it up.

[WestCoastRunner]

. Men in war are away from their homes for long periods, powerless to help ensure the safety of their children if they are on an unrelated mission. And on top of this they are, as you put it, being "shot dead" and "taken hostage". Hardly a stress-free environment if I might say so.

The fact of the matter is, wars are managed by men. If wars were managed by women, we would have an entirely different result.

[Bonam]

The fact of the matter is, wars are managed by men. If wars were managed by women, we would have an entirely different result.

Which wars? All of them? Managed how? I assure you there have been numerous female heads of state of belligerent factions in many wars throughout history, and those wars were not significantly different from other wars in any relevant way.

[jacee]

There is only one thing preventing meaningful progress on peace - and that is for Hamas to reject those parts of their charter that calls for the annihilation of all jews in the world. You cannot negotiate peace with a "partner" whose sole objective is to murder all your people. What part of that do you not get?

It's irrelevant:

A cease fire is just a cease fire.

Hamas proposes 10 years, with reasonable conditions.

.