Argus Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 That sickening strategy hasn't been in use since 2009. . Uh, you mean when the Israelis built a wall to keep the Palestinians out? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Your referring to deaths as some kind of football match score shows a lack of respect to the very Palestinian lives you think you defend. Your use of the deaths as if they are a football score belittle the meaning of those deaths and renders them a propaganda tool for Hamas-precisely what it wants-death of civilians so people like you wil act as dupes repeating the numbers like an xbox score in Hamas' favour. What you are in effect stating is Hamas morality wins points for the number of civilians it places in harm's way and get's killed. Slaughter of innocents? Do you even know how many deaths reported as Palestinian civilian deaths have in fact not been civilians but Hamas operatives? Well do you? Of course not. This is a friggin tragedy for both sides. One death of an innnocent on either side is too many deaths. Hamas is going to kill as many innocents as possible by putting them in the line of fire, so that they die, pile up and then incite arm people like you to blindy knee jerk react knee jerk react in Hamas' favour. I am not sure what is more loathsome Hamas for deliberately placing these civilians in harm's way or you allowing yourself to become a cheer leader for their actions. Just recently another UNWRA school was blown up killing 15 kids. Hamas right before the UNWRA building was blown up short missiles and mortars at the IDF next to that school and then ran like the cowards they were. They deliberately used the school. Spare me your hypocracy over Israel firing back but not addressing what Hamas did. No the IDF will not sit on their asses as Hamas hides next to the UNWRA school and fires at them. In the real world people die because Hamas like the cowards they are shoot from behind these civilians then run leaving them in a hail of bullets to die. Its a tiresome method of operation and it works because people like you are only to willing to cheer them on. Israel loaths having civilians die but they will finish this against Hamas. The tunnels will be blown up and Hamas will be paralyzed from sending in rockets daily and using its people as shields and using the Gaza as a launching pad against Israel. Thank you for reading my post and your comments. This, and most conflicts , are argued according to the prejudices and affiliations of those who are presenting their opinions. There is every attempt to spin the cause, process, possible repercussions and eventual outcomes. The cause and process will depend on the leanings and position of the commenter. The possible repercussions eventual outcomes will be a subjective wish of the commentator. The only unarguable data is the "score". I keep a running score because that the only factual data of what is going on. If you don't like the score than I suggest keep your own score. Perhaps one innocent Palestinian civilian death is equal to two innocent Israeli civilian deaths. Or the reverse - perhaps two innocent Palestinian deaths is equal to one innocent Israeli civilian death. You make that comparison based on your opinion. I still equate that every innocent non-combatant life to be equal - and precious. Right at this time, the score is Israel - 1,500 and Hamas - 55. If you feel, that 27 Palestinian lives equal 1 Israeli life then the two sides are tied. If you do not, well, that will depend on which team you are rooting for. I will continue to update the score on the ground and leave it to the different posters to decide who is winning. I am not a cheerleader, I am a scorekeeper. Edited July 30, 2014 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
cybercoma Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 I presume because they would present a security risk. Dunno. Wouldn't it be easier to go to Egypt?maybe not. Maybe some have family or ties to Lebanon. Regardless, not every last Palestinian is a security risk to Israel. There are thousands of legitimate refugees trying to escape the war zone. Israel by not allowing them to leave is acting in an utterly reprehensible way. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Uh, you mean when the Israelis built a wall to keep the Palestinians out?Or to keep them in like fish in a barrel. Edited July 30, 2014 by cybercoma Quote
Argus Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 BTW - What is the difference between the Russians supplying those rebels in Eastern Ukraine and the USA supplying Israeli troops in Gaza. s. The Russians fomented rebellion in eastern Ukraine with intelligence agents, propaganda and fear-mondering tactics, paid ragged assed men to join the 'separatist' groups, led them, supplied them with weapons, and protected them against the democratic Ukrainian government. The US did NONE of that in Israel/Gaza. Clear now? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 You're wrong. Journalists are considered civilians under intentional law. Anyone targeting them would be guilty of war crimes. Does Hamas actually have journalists? Were Goebbels and his people journalists? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 maybe not. Maybe some have family or ties to Lebanon. Regardless, not every last Palestinian is a security risk to Israel. There are thousands of legitimate refugees trying to escape the war zone. Israel by not allowing them to leave is acting in an utterly reprehensible way. But on the other hand hey, if Israel actually wanted to depopulate the area, as some claim, wouldn't they be delighted to help people leave? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Or to keep them in like fish in a barrel. The wall is in the West bank, not Gaza. I don't think the suggestion the Israelis want to kill civilians has any merit. It clearly costs them in terms of international support, as well as causing trouble on the home front from Israeli liberals. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Hal 9000 Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Thank you for reading my post and your comments. This, and most conflicts , are argued according to the prejudices and affiliations of those who are presenting their opinions. There is every attempt to spin the cause, process, possible repercussions and eventual outcomes. The cause and process will depend on the leanings and position of the commenter. The possible repercussions eventual outcomes will be a subjective wish of the commentator. The only unarguable data is the "score". I keep a running score because that the only factual data of what is going on. If you don't like the score than I suggest keep your own score. Perhaps one innocent Palestinian civilian death is equal to two innocent Israeli civilian deaths. Or the reverse - perhaps two innocent Palestinian deaths is equal to one innocent Israeli civilian death. You make that comparison based on your opinion. I still equate that every innocent non-combatant life to be equal - and precious. Right at this time, the score is Israel - 1,500 and Hamas - 55. If you feel, that 27 Palestinian lives equal 1 Israeli life then the two sides are tied. If you do not, well, that will depend on which team you are rooting for. I will continue to update the score on the ground and leave it to the different posters to decide who is winning. I am not a cheerleader, I am a scorekeeper. Do you think Hamas is as bothered by the number of civilian deaths as you are? Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Hal 9000 Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Does Hamas actually have journalists? Were Goebbels and his people journalists? I think Hamas controls a lot of the media out of Gaza. Also, A lot of these "U.N" people in Gaza are actually Hamas who are simply employed by the U.N. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Big Guy Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Do you think Hamas is as bothered by the number of civilian deaths as you are? I really have no idea what the leaders of Hamas or the current Israeli government think. I argue on the premise that human life is precious – every human life. I also believe that the taking of one life of an innocent during a conflict between any political philosophies is unacceptable and if/when it becomes acceptable that new moral rules and standards come into play which guarantee genocide and/or mutual annihilation. If taking one life is OK, then how about 5? what about 50? how about 5,000 or maybe even 5 million? Once you go down that road then only the numbers become negotiable. In this particular conflict, both sides have established that the number of innocent lives taken is not a factor. Therefore, there are a number of possible permanent solutions, some more acceptable than others – depending on your biases: Israel uses its military might (and perhaps a nuclear weapon which they have) and kills all 2 million Palestinians (or at least most of them ) in Gaza. Israel occupies the now vacant territory (after the radioactivity disappears) and everybody lives in peace. Life goes on in the rest of the world. Hamas ( or a nation backing Hamas) uses newly found chemical or biological weapons to kill all 8 million Israelis (or at least most of them) in Israel. Palestinians and other Middle East displaced people occupy the now vacant territory (after the land becomes uncontaminated) and everybody lives in peace. Life goes on in the rest of the world. The Palestinians and Israelis escalate into a war which ends in mutual destruction of their populations. Ten million people are removed from the face of the earth. Since there are about 8 billion people on this earth, that would represent less than 0.02% of the population and easily able to be absorbed. Once the land becomes inhabitable, people from the rest of the world inhabit the vacant territory and life goes on in the rest of the world. I guess that one other possible solution would be that the two sides understand the road that they are taking and decide that annihilation of either side or both is not a good idea. That would require an understanding and compromise that, as shown by the comments in this thread and this board, cannot be an option. As I stated previously – I try not to take sides. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Hal 9000 Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I really have no idea what the leaders of Hamas or the current Israeli government think. If you can't answer that question, they you are really trying hard to not take sides. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Big Guy Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 If you can't answer that question, they you are really trying hard to not take sides. Thank you - I think? I have found that what people think, what they do, what their news media report and what their enemies report are very, very different. I have access only to the last three. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
jbg Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I presume because they would present a security risk. Dunno. Wouldn't it be easier to go to Egypt? Or test their swimming ability </sarcasm> Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
WestCoastRunner Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I can't even imagine the Palestinian mothers with babies and young children, having no power, no where to run. It's a travesty on both sides. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
cybercoma Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I can't even imagine the Palestinian mothers with babies and young children, having no power, no where to run. It's a travesty on both sides.yes, Hanas needs to be stopped. Quote
dre Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Does Hamas actually have journalists? Were Goebbels and his people journalists? <facepalm/> Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Hal 9000 Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I can't even imagine the Palestinian mothers with babies and young children, having no power, no where to run. It's a travesty on both sides. No sympathy for the fathers? Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Bonam Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 maybe not. Maybe some have family or ties to Lebanon. Regardless, not every last Palestinian is a security risk to Israel. There are thousands of legitimate refugees trying to escape the war zone. Israel by not allowing them to leave is acting in an utterly reprehensible way. Israel has no obligation to let residents of a territory they are at war with enter Israel. Perhaps they should look to their fellow Muslim brothers in Egypt? I wonder why the Egyptians won't let them in either. Quote
Bonam Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Thank you for reading my post and your comments. This, and most conflicts , are argued according to the prejudices and affiliations of those who are presenting their opinions. There is every attempt to spin the cause, process, possible repercussions and eventual outcomes. The cause and process will depend on the leanings and position of the commenter. The possible repercussions eventual outcomes will be a subjective wish of the commentator. No, there are objective facts, and there are rational ways to think about those facts and come to logical opinions or conclusions. The only unarguable data is the "score". No. First, there are plenty of other objective facts in any conflict other than just the number of casualties. Second, Hamas has been caught exaggerating numbers of victims before, so your "score" is hardly unarguable. I keep a running score because that the only factual data of what is going on. If you don't like the score than I suggest keep your own score. You keep the score? No, you just regurgitate the numbers you see in the media. As for factual data... how many rockets has Hamas fired? What were their intended targets? How many tunnels are there? What was the purpose of those tunnels? What percent of cement delivered to Gaza was used for these tunnels as opposed to civilian infrastructure? How many strikes has Israel launched? What were their targets? What percent of Israeli strikes were aimed at a legitimate target? How many days warning did Israel give to civilians who live in areas that were to be potentially affected by their strikes? How many days notice does Hamas give to Israeli civilians it is firing rockets at? Which side does everything in its power to protect its civilians including investing in the latest anti-rocket technology? Which side does everything in its power to endanger its civilians by placing weapons and fighters in, on, and around schools and hospitals? The answers to all these questions are objective facts. You might try answering them, thinking about those answers, and seeing if you can come up with any thoughts besides "everything is subjective". Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I got untold warnings and spent months in The Cooler for making some of the comments I've seen here...love it (grabs more popcorn). Hi, Bonam. (waves) Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Army Guy Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 You're wrong. Journalists are considered civilians under intentional law. Anyone targeting them would be guilty of war crimes. You misunderstood, media centers are the targets, the facilities not the people. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Then you won't complain if Hamas decides to take out Israeli power plants? Since you want to consider infrastructure, military targets. I was not aware that i was complaining, simply stating a fact that those type of facilities are military targets, and have been since the conception of war... Everyone is crying that Israel is some how playing dirty by knocking the power out....when it is part of the conflict a "legal target"....it was done to make the population suffer....in case you have forgotten it was the population that installed Hamas through elections.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
jacee Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) No, there are objective facts, and there are rational ways to think about those facts and come to logical opinions or conclusions. No. First, there are plenty of other objective facts in any conflict other than just the number ... Who the hell cares! Tallying war atrocities is for nincompoop chest thumpers. Working actively and sincerely for peace is the important work. Hamas has recently made a major step in that regard. Is Israel up to the real work? . Edited July 31, 2014 by jacee Quote
Keepitsimple Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Who the hell cares! Tallying war victories is for nincompoop chest thumpers. Working actively and sincerely for peace is the important work. Hamas has recently made a major step in that regard. Is Israel up to the real work? . There is only one thing preventing meaningful progress on peace - and that is for Hamas to reject those parts of their charter that calls for the annihilation of all jews in the world. You cannot negotiate peace with a "partner" whose sole objective is to murder all your people. What part of that do you not get? Quote Back to Basics
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