cybercoma Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 And this idea that it's ok because the Israeli Government has done terrible things is like saying it's ok for innocent Canadians to be targeted by killers for the stupid things that Stephen Harper does. That doesn't wash with me. Quote
GostHacked Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 And this idea that it's ok because the Israeli Government has done terrible things is like saying it's ok for innocent Canadians to be targeted by killers for the stupid things that Stephen Harper does. That doesn't wash with me. That depends if you support it or not. Apparently we are not innocent in these cases as these are 'elected leaders' and we are the ones who elected them. So we bear some responsibility for it. That would be the reasoning. Quote
Boges Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 That depends if you support it or not. Apparently we are not innocent in these cases as these are 'elected leaders' and we are the ones who elected them. So we bear some responsibility for it. That would be the reasoning. As BC2004 has mentioned earlier, it would be comparable to a first nations reserve firing rockets at a Canadian city. Quote
Black Dog Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 No, but just about the only imaginable reason that someone would give Hamas a pass on targeting innocent Jews with rocket fire is that they hate Jews. Who is doing that? I'm not sure under what circumstances you think intentionally targeting innocent civilians is ok, but it seems to be when it's Jews, but not when it's Palestinians. I don't know if you're still doing your new Shady Lite shtick here or not, but I for one have never said intentionally targeting innocent civilians is ok, nor have I seen anyone who has. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 People haven't used those words, but it's implied when they're not even remotely critical of Hamas, yet howling about Israel. Quote
Black Dog Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 People haven't used those words, but it's implied when they're not even remotely critical of Hamas, yet howling about Israel. Oh cool, so now one can be labelled a Jew-hater based on what you DON'T say. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 Oh cool, so now one can be labelled a Jew-hater based on what you DON'T say. I didn't say anyone was a Jew hater, I said it's the only reason, that I can imagine, that someone would defend rocket attacks on innocent Israelis by a terrorist organization that has openly stated its aim is to annihilate the Jews. Quote
jbg Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 Hamas will store them anywhere they can. They are not a legitimate standing army. Israel won't let the Palestinians have one. So, rules of war and engagement are out the door on the Hamas side. Terror like guerrilla tactics. Not letting them have a standing army is putting civilians at risk of 'collateral damage' Maybe we can take the leaders of both sides, tie their hands together and give them each a knife. TWO GO IN, ONE COMES OUT. Let's put an end to this stupidity. So what you're saying, in elliptical terms, is that Israel must provide Hamas with an opportunity to fight them. I think not. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Black Dog Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 I didn't say anyone was a Jew hater, I said it's the only reason, that I can imagine, that someone would defend rocket attacks on innocent Israelis by a terrorist organization that has openly stated its aim is to annihilate the Jews. So, here's your logic as I understand it: the only reason one would defend rocket attacks is if one hates Jews. But at the same time, being insufficiently critical of Hamas is tantamount to outright defending the rocket attacks (see post #805). Ergo, if one is insufficiently critical of Hamas (or excessively critical of Israel), one is ipso facto a Jew-hater. Can you see why your logic is a bit problematic? Quote
Argus Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) So we're clear: do you feel the only reason an individual can be critical of Israel is that they hate Jews? I am critical of Israel. I don't support the settlements. I think their fractured parliament is a recipe for disaster and there are too many religious fanatics influencing government policy. There are reasons to be critical of Israel. However, when Palestinians fire thousands of rockets into Israel, and all we can see from certain quarters is endless shrill harping on how Israel is engaged in wanton slaughter and deliberate killing of children it's pretty hard to not wonder at their motivation. These are not rational attacks on Israeli policy. There is a war going on, as there is in a dozen other places none of these people seem to give a damn about. So why the frantic denunciations of Israel for defending its people from rocket fire? They have a hell of a lot more justification for attacks on Palestine than Russia does for its attacks on Ukraine, yet some of the same people are defending Russia. Edited July 28, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Black Dog Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 I am critical of Israel. I don't support the settlements. I think their fractured parliament is a recipe for disaster and there are too many religious fanatics influencing government policy. There are reasons to be critical of Israel. However, when Palestinians fire thousands of rockets into Israel, and all we can see from certain quarters is endless shrill harping on how Israel is engaged in wanton slaughter and deliberate killing of children it's pretty hard to not wonder at their motivation. These are not rational attacks on Israeli policy. There is a war going on, as there is in a dozen other places none of these people seem to give a damn about. So why the frantic denunciations of Israel for defending its people from rocket fire? They have a hell of a lot more justification for attacks on Palestine than Russia does for its attacks on Ukraine, yet some of the same people are defending Russia. All of this is true, but on the flip side, it's not at all uncommon to see legitimate and rational criticisms of Israeli policy dismissed with the antisemitic canard. There's a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram of "Jew haters" and "Israel critics." But there's also a fair bit of daylight as well. The problem is when they are depicted as one and the same, which makes actual dialogue nigh-impossible. Quote
GostHacked Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 All of this is true, but on the flip side, it's not at all uncommon to see legitimate and rational criticisms of Israeli policy dismissed with the antisemitic canard. Examples of that are found in this thread. Even to the point of calling someone an anti-semite for understanding a difference between Zionism, Isreali and Jew. You cannot win at all. Actually most of the time it's topped with 'well you support the terrorists then'. And round and round we go. Quote
PIK Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 If everybody got behind Israel over hamas, this problem would go away and peace could take hold. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Boges Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 Examples of that are found in this thread. Even to the point of calling someone an anti-semite for understanding a difference between Zionism, Isreali and Jew. You cannot win at all. Actually most of the time it's topped with 'well you support the terrorists then'. And round and round we go. Terrorist lover. Quote
jbg Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 If everybody got behind Israel over hamas, this problem would go away and peace could take hold. I wish it were that simple. When advanced Western countries collide with primitive societies it rarely ends well for the primitive society. Things can get really hairy when that primitive society is heavily armed and has the support of the chattering classes. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
PIK Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 I wish it were that simple. When advanced Western countries collide with primitive societies it rarely ends well for the primitive society. Things can get really hairy when that primitive society is heavily armed and has the support of the chattering classes.Then get rid of primitive society as in hamas. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Black Dog Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 Then get rid of primitive society as in hamas. OK: how? Quote
cybercoma Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 So, here's your logic as I understand it: the only reason one would defend rocket attacks is if one hates Jews. Let me cut and paste what I posted, so you can look at it and compare/contrast for yourself. Although I already added emphasis, let me further add more emphasis to the parts that you missed in your reply. I said it's the only reason, that I can imagine, that someone would defend rocket attacks on innocent Israelis by a terrorist organization that has openly stated its aim is to annihilate the Jews. If you're going to quote me, please don't chop up my sentences to change the context and meaning of what I'm saying. But at the same time, being insufficiently critical of Hamas is tantamount to outright defending the rocket attacks (see post #805). Ergo, if one is insufficiently critical of Hamas (or excessively critical of Israel), one is ipso facto a Jew-hater. Can you see why your logic is a bit problematic? I don't see the problem because there isn't one. People are critical of Israel because they're launching rocket attacks targeting Hamas, but killing the innocent civilians that are around them. People don't criticize Hamas for launching rocket attacks that are aimed and intended to kill civilians. If you're going to be critical of attacking civilians, then be critical of Hamas who initiated the violence by trying to kill innocent Israelis. Their stated aim is to annihilate the Jews. When people criticize Israel, but just ignore Hamas, it makes one wonder why they wouldn't be critical of the anti-semitic terror organization that's trying to murder innocent people. Instead they're critical of Israel who's trying to destroy the animals that are targeting innocent civilians because Israel's bombs are also killing innocent people, who are being used as human shields by Hamas. It's not only hypocritical, but it's unconscionable. If you're critical of Israel you should be even more critical of Hamas since their intention is to kill innocent people, despite Israel defending itself successfully thus far. So people are silent about those who intend to annihilate the Jews, those who've said their goal is to slaughter them all. Meanwhile, they're critical of Israel for attacking Hamas, who sets up their rockets in and around civilians centers, because innocent people are being killed in the process. They're critical of Israel defending itself, but not critical of Hamas intentionally trying to slaughter the Jews. You tell me what other reason there would be for that kind of logical inconsistency, other than thinly veiled hatred for the innocent Jews that are being targeted by Hamas's attacks? You tell me why people aren't critical of a group that states openly that they want to exterminate the Jews, whilst being hyper-critical of Israel for defending itself? If it's not thinly veiled hatred for Jews, I have no idea what it could be. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 All of this is true, but on the flip side, it's not at all uncommon to see legitimate and rational criticisms of Israeli policy dismissed with the antisemitic canard.That is absolutely not the case here. Israel needs to pull out of their settlements. I think everyone has agreed on that policy point. What we don't agree on is condemning Israel for defending herself, while turning a blind eye to a group that openly declares that it wants to slaughter the Jews. Quote
Black Dog Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 Let me cut and paste what I posted, so you can look at it and compare/contrast for yourself. Although I already added emphasis, let me further add more emphasis to the parts that you missed in your reply. If you're going to quote me, please don't chop up my sentences to change the context and meaning of what I'm saying. Don't forget your subsequent response: People haven't used those words, but it's implied when they're not even remotely critical of Hamas, yet howling about Israel. So you acknowledge yourself that, actually, no one is defending rocket attacks on innocent Israelis. But, you say, if they are "howling about Israel", then they might as well be. There's not really any other interpretation there. So I guess the question needs to be asked: exactly how much of outrage does one have to express towards Hamas before they can safely be ruled out as a tacit supporter of rocket attacks on innocent people? What, precisely, is the threshold IYV? I don't see the problem because there isn't one. People are critical of Israel because they're launching rocket attacks targeting Hamas, but killing the innocent civilians that are around them. People don't criticize Hamas for launching rocket attacks that are aimed and intended to kill civilians. What people? If you're going to be critical of attacking civilians, then be critical of Hamas who initiated the violence by trying to kill innocent Israelis. Their stated aim is to annihilate the Jews. When people criticize Israel, but just ignore Hamas, it makes one wonder why they wouldn't be critical of the anti-semitic terror organization that's trying to murder innocent people. Instead they're critical of Israel who's trying to destroy the animals that are targeting innocent civilians because Israel's bombs are also killing innocent people, who are being used as human shields by Hamas. It's not only hypocritical, but it's unconscionable. If you're critical of Israel you should be even more critical of Hamas since their intention is to kill innocent people, despite Israel defending itself successfully thus far. So people are silent about those who intend to annihilate the Jews, those who've said their goal is to slaughter them all. Meanwhile, they're critical of Israel for attacking Hamas, who sets up their rockets in and around civilians centers, because innocent people are being killed in the process. They're critical of Israel defending itself, but not critical of Hamas intentionally trying to slaughter the Jews. Lots of people are capable of criticizing Israel without the need to make some kind of obligatory statement about how Hamas is horrible, a fact that is self-evident to any serious observer. What's more, there's a lot more to this than rockets: this didn't happen overnight, but is part of an ongoing cycle of provocation and response. You tell me what other reason there would be for that kind of logical inconsistency, other than thinly veiled hatred for the innocent Jews that are being targeted by Hamas's attacks? You tell me why people aren't critical of a group that states openly that they want to exterminate the Jews, whilst being hyper-critical of Israel for defending itself? If it's not thinly veiled hatred for Jews, I have no idea what it could be. I've listed a few reasons in this and other threads. The response is usually "nah, they just hate Jews." That is absolutely not the case here. Israel needs to pull out of their settlements. I think everyone has agreed on that policy point. What we don't agree on is condemning Israel for defending herself, while turning a blind eye to a group that openly declares that it wants to slaughter the Jews. Everyone agrees except the current Israeli government, the settler yahoos who prop them up and the great many of their supporters and allies. Quote
Boges Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 Anyone think Hamas would gladly do a ceasefire on Yom Kippur? Quote
jbg Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 I wish it were that simple. When advanced Western countries collide with primitive societies it rarely ends well for the primitive society. Things can get really hairy when that primitive society is heavily armed and has the support of the chattering classes.Then get rid of primitive society as in hamas.OK: how?I don't think that anyone will like this, but a lot the way Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were handled in WW II and how the Georgia between Atlanta and Savannah was handled in the March to the Sea in the Civil War. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 All of this is true, but on the flip side, it's not at all uncommon to see legitimate and rational criticisms of Israeli policy dismissed with the antisemitic canard. There's a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram of "Jew haters" and "Israel critics." But there's also a fair bit of daylight as well. The problem is when they are depicted as one and the same, which makes actual dialogue nigh-impossible. The reason that anti-Semitism often comes up is that Israel is on the short list of many peoples' countries to criticize. The savagery in Ukraine/Russia, Nigeria, Sudan, just to name a few rarely bares mention. But Israel? When was the last time Kerry took a trip to Nigeria to get Boko Haram to lay off the Christian schoolgirls? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Bob Macadoo Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 The reason that anti-Semitism often comes up is that Israel is on the short list of many peoples' countries to criticize. The savagery in Ukraine/Russia, Nigeria, Sudan, just to name a few rarely bares mention. But Israel?When was the last time Kerry took a trip to Nigeria to get Boko Haram to lay off the Christian schoolgirls? Does the American gov't have sway via $$$ with Boko Haram? Now if you said why isn't he in Egypt raising hell I would agree. Quote
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