Encouraging Developments Against Zionist Apartheid Regime!

GostHacked · July 28, 2014

Just a question; As a female, would you consider Christianity and Judaism better or worse than Islam?

As a human, I find all three equally bad. How silly is it to keep this fight up over eons about their 'one true' sky god?

GostHacked · July 28, 2014

Zionism was the name of the movement to establish Israel as a Jewish national homeland. Your definition is perverted, wrong and comes from a now-repealed 1975 U.N. Resolution.

I feel the definition has changed over time. Zionism predates modern Israel and is the political movement to establish the 'homeland'. Zionism and Judaism might not compliment each other as much as some would think.

And a valid point is a valid point no matter what. A valid point cannot be disregarded simply because of it's source.

GostHacked · July 28, 2014

I'm saying the opinions of street trash don't matter. Most of them are illiterate, have little to no knowledge of what's going on in their own country, let alone another one, and have no power to affect anything anyway. Even the street trash from the West mostly don't vote or have any money or influence.

The power brokers don't pay any attention to them.

This is a key point. The powers that be don't give a rat's ass about you OR me. As long as we keep fighting each other and ignore them, they will perpetuate the division and make us kill each other. Are we really that stupid to be going along with that all this time? We've been duped, used and abused. And when you don't follow their line, you will be raked and raped across the coals.

And what you are getting at is not just happening in specific places, it is actually something common across the board. Everywhere in every country. And as long as those power brokers are making money, death and destruction will continue.

And they dare to call themselves, human.

Black Dog · July 28, 2014

As much as I rail against those who intentionally blur of the lines between legitimate criticism of Israeli policy and hatred of Jews, folks who rant about "the Zionists" do themselves (and the rest of us) zero favours in that respect. Precision in language is important, especially in a hot-button issue like this.

GostHacked · July 28, 2014

As much as I rail against those who intentionally blur of the lines between legitimate criticism of Israeli policy and hatred of Jews, folks who rant about "the Zionists" do themselves (and the rest of us) zero favours in that respect. Precision in language is important, especially in a hot-button issue like this.

That would be like discussing the War on Terror without talking about the Neo-Cons.

Black Dog · July 28, 2014

That would be like discussing the War on Terror without talking about the Neo-Cons.

Nonsense. You yourself have admitted that Zionism as an ideology predates the state of Israel itself. So who are the Zionists in this scenario today and what do they have to do with things?

GostHacked · July 28, 2014

Nonsense. You yourself have admitted that Zionism as an ideology predates the state of Israel itself. So who are the Zionists in this scenario today and what do they have to do with things?

That seems to be the real kicker here ain't it. Who are they today and what is their future goals? If Zionism is not the powerhouse it once was, then what is replacing it? And who is in charge?

Netanyahu never supported a two state solution. Take his words for it. At the two minute mark. This was back in the 1980s.

Cross Examiner : 'Do the Palestinians have the right to a separate state?'

Netanyahu (Using the name Natay) : 'No I don't think they do.'

Argus · July 28, 2014

Genocide is disturbing no matter who's doing it.

.

If genocide is being committed in Gaza it's a damned strange form of genocide given their population continues to grow...

Argus · July 28, 2014

Even Canadians have an unfavourable view of Israel.

Street trash exist in Canada, too. Some of them are on this web site.

And their opinion has affected Canada's position on Israel, how, exactly?

This is what happens when you mix bigotry with ignorance. Which usually go together anyway.

I'm willing to bet I'm a lot less bigoted towards Arabs than you are towards Jews.

As for ignorance, well, your posts speak for themselves.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Argus

Black Dog · July 28, 2014

That seems to be the real kicker here ain't it. Who are they today and what is their future goals? If Zionism is not the powerhouse it once was, then what is replacing it? And who is in charge?

Netanyahu never supported a two state solution. Take his words for it. At the two minute mark. This was back in the 1980s.

It's pretty clear that "Zionist" is a broad term that can encompass anyone from Netanyahu to someone who would be in favour of a two-state solution that would ensure Israel's continued existence and security as a Jewish homeland, which makes its use as a pejorative term highly problematic. Whereas neo-con, to look at your example, is a much more specific term with very specific connotations. But you can be a Zionist and still be opposed to Israel's expansionist policies WRT the West Bank and their counterproductive approach to dealing with Hamas.

That's why I refer to Likudniks and/or the settler bloc when I talk about the radical forces within Israeli society that represent the biggest barrier to peace on that side. But when I hear people spout "Zionist" as a slur, it's not hard to figure they do that because "kike" would probably give the game away.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Black Dog

GostHacked · July 28, 2014

Street trash exist in Canada, too. Some of them are on this web site.

And their opinion has affected Canada's position on Israel, how, exactly?

How nice.

I'm willing to bet I'm a lot less bigoted towards Arabs than you are towards Jews.

As for ignorance, well, your posts speak for themselves.

How much you willing to put down?

GostHacked · July 28, 2014

It's pretty clear that "Zionist" is a broad term that can encompass anyone from Netanyahu to someone who would be in favour of a two-state solution...

Netanyahu does not support a two state solution. He supports absorbing the West Bank and Gaza into Israel proper. Or having Gaza stay in Israel and have the West Bank absorbed into Jordan. But it's not so much about absorbing the people as it is about absorbing the land in which Israel occupies.

Black Dog · July 28, 2014

Netanyahu does not support a two state solution. He supports absorbing the West Bank and Gaza into Israel proper. Or having Gaza stay in Israel and have the West Bank absorbed into Jordan. But it's not so much about absorbing the people as it is about absorbing the land in which Israel occupies.

And this has what to do with what I was talking about?

dre · July 28, 2014

But when I hear people spout "Zionist" as a slur, it's not hard to figure they do that because "kike" would probably give the game away.

That seems pretty unlikely to me in most cases, and youre perpetuating the same kind of fallacy that unfortunately is cornerstone of this debate. Zionism is a political movement with some goals, and a history. Its definately possible that someone critical of that movement could be anti-simetic, but its silly to take that as a given.

This whole way of thinking does not hold up to scrutiny, and its too bad its such a prominent fixture in this debate.

Black Dog · July 28, 2014

That seems pretty unlikely to me in most cases, and youre perpetuating the same kind of fallacy that unfortunately is cornerstone of this debate. Zionism is a political movement with some goals, and a history.

OK, then: who are the Zionists, what are their goals and what's their relevance to the current situation? As I pointed out, Zionist is a broad term containing different and even conflicting political agendas.

Its definately possible that someone critical of that movement could be anti-simetic, but its silly to take that as a given.

If someone is throwing "Zionist" around as a pejorative term, if they fail to establish who exactly they are talking about and why, if they can't even give a working definition of the term, then I'm pretty comfortable suggesting that individual is speaking in code.

This whole way of thinking does not hold up to scrutiny, and its too bad its such a prominent fixture in this debate.

I'm actually railing against the linguistic imprecision that makes rational debate on this issue so difficult.

Bob Macadoo · July 28, 2014

I'm actually railing against the linguistic imprecision that makes rational debate on this issue so difficult.

That's an argument of semantics....which doesn't allow for further debate. If the term Likuds was used someone would argue that they didn't vote. Its a death spiral. Its no different than those who spout off about "neo-con" this or "progressive" that. Their arguments aren't stifled when they have no clue to the label they are using.

So let's redefine Zionist if it doesn't fit your sensibilities, no different than Nazi today has no resemblance to 1939 Nazi.....and no I am not equating those labels.

TimG · July 28, 2014

One of the problems is "Zionist" is few people know what it means other than it has something to do with Jews. This leads to people making strawmen up about the motivations of Israelis and then trashing the strawmen.

For example, I think most reasonable people can agree that the reason Israelis attack Gaza and keep firm control on the West Bank is because of fears about security. It is reasonable to criticize their approach as heavy handed or counter productive but as soon as one starts creating conspiracies about what the "real" objectives of the Israelis then we are beyond the realm of criticizing Israeli policies move into the realm of bigotry.

Edited July 28, 2014 by TimG

Bob Macadoo · July 28, 2014

One of the problems is "Zionist" is few people know what it means other than it has something to do with Jews. This leads to people making strawmen up about the motivations of Israelis and then trashing the strawmen.For example, I think most reasonable people can agree that the reason Israelis attack Gaza and keep firm control on the West Bank is because of fears about security. It is reasonable to criticize their approach as heavy handed or counter productive but as soon as one starts creating conspiracies about what the "real" objectives of the Israelis then we are beyond the realm of criticizing Israeli policies move into the realm of bigotry.

Exactly there are those who vote for Rob Ford who hate 99% about him but endorse his penny pinching ideal....just as those israelis who vote for "zionists" who will defend them in a frightening situation. If there were "watergate tapes" of any hidden agendas....they would still be voted for as their security supercedes palestinian autonomy. Thats why either we stop this or we let the cleanse be completed as the players are very rightly worried about themselves rather than the larger view.

Argus · July 28, 2014

That seems pretty unlikely to me in most cases, and youre perpetuating the same kind of fallacy that unfortunately is cornerstone of this debate. Zionism is a political movement with some goals, and a history. Its definately possible that someone critical of that movement could be anti-simetic, but its silly to take that as a given.

This whole way of thinking does not hold up to scrutiny, and its too bad its such a prominent fixture in this debate.

There are certain academics, historians and intellectuals who will use the term Zionist in a proper setting. But most people don't know what it really is, and it's a handy safe word to use when they really mean "Jew", and you want to attach a variety of pejorative terms without having your account yanked. LIke if you wanted to say something like Dirty, slimy, selfish Zionists are all the rage. here on mapleleaf web, you can do it, but not if you use the word Jews instead, you see.

jacee · July 29, 2014

Netanyahu does not support a two state solution. He supports absorbing the West Bank and Gaza into Israel proper. Or having Gaza stay in Israel and have the West Bank absorbed into Jordan. But it's not so much about absorbing the people as it is about absorbing the land in which Israel occupies.

Ya, the land ... but not the people: Israel doesn't want a majority of Arab people in its Jewish state ... just their land.

Kinda makes you wonder how they plan to get rid of the people ... bomb them all into oblivion?

Oh wait ... they are!

.

WestCoastRunner · July 29, 2014

I think there are too many threads on this subject. Can we do something about this? It's confusing which thread to contribute to.

jbg · July 29, 2014

I think there are too many threads on this subject. Can we do something about this? It's confusing which thread to contribute to.

I was going to create another with my peace suggestion and I had some specifics. I decided to delete it for fear of offending some on this board.

Edited July 29, 2014 by jbg

dre · July 29, 2014

There are certain academics, historians and intellectuals who will use the term Zionist in a proper setting. But most people don't know what it really is, and it's a handy safe word to use when they really mean "Jew", and you want to attach a variety of pejorative terms without having your account yanked. LIke if you wanted to say something like Dirty, slimy, selfish Zionists are all the rage. here on mapleleaf web, you can do it, but not if you use the word Jews instead, you see.

Zionists to me are just people that believe that the jews should have a state in Eretz Yisrael. The problem with this is that this area includes a lot more land that what the world legally recognizes as Israel, which is either the green line or the pre 67 borders. Its roughly Israel PLUS the occupied territories. So someone with these believes is not very likely to support any two state solution, and because they see the palestinians as taking land that was promised to them by god they are a lot more likely to harber a lot of hatred towards them then other Jews.

My parents left their before I was born, and one of the reasons why was because normal coffee-shop talk there often ammounted to "when is the government gonna get those n**gers off of our land". Just like there is in the occupied territories theres a really ugly element in Israel... vehemently racist, belligerent, and uncompromising.

Zionists get some of the rap for this and they deserve it. They are often the least compromising, and the most belligerent. That doesnt mean all of them are, but as a general rule that bears itself out.

This quote from Ben Gurion illustrates the mindset pretty nicely and why zionists arent popular around the world...

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

Basically the entire zionist ideology is built around taking a piece of land from the people that already lived there because it was promised to the jews by god. The entire ideology is based on an act that jews themselves would consider a horrible injustice if somebody else did it to them.

jacee · July 29, 2014

Thank you dre.

Black Dog · July 29, 2014

Zionists to me are just people that believe that the jews should have a state in Eretz Yisrael. The problem with this is that this area includes a lot more land that what the world legally recognizes as Israel, which is either the green line or the pre 67 borders. Its roughly Israel PLUS the occupied territories. So someone with these believes is not very likely to support any two state solution, and because they see the palestinians as taking land that was promised to them by god they are a lot more likely to harber a lot of hatred towards them then other Jews.

To me, a Zionist is, broadly and simply, someone who supports the existence of a Jewish homeland. Some might take it to the extreme you describe, but I'm confident that is very much a minority opinion and, as such, it is inaccurate and misleading to co-opt the broad definition for the minority group.

Basically the entire zionist ideology is built around taking a piece of land from the people that already lived there because it was promised to the jews by god. The entire ideology is based on an act that jews themselves would consider a horrible injustice if somebody else did it to them.

Well, one of the worst offences of the Zionist movement in its early incarnations was the propagation of the notion that the land now known as Israel was empty. One of the worst things the state of Israel and its apologists have done is to minimize and deny the extent of the violent dispossession that was the precondition for the formation of the modern state. Recognizing that in the same way other states have recognized, apologized and made reparations for their own colonialist past would IMO go a long way.