This week in Islam

[dialamah]

Kimmy, had no idea your anti-Islamic propaganda went back so far on this site! And to think I had you mistaken for someone who was at least a little open-minded on this issue!

Anyway, what else have the 'evil Muslims' been doing?

https://www.ted.com/talks/maajid_nawaz_a_global_culture_to_fight_extremism?language=en-- Muslim speaker calls for grassroots movement to expand democracy

https://www.scenesofreason.com/muslims-against-islamic-extremism/ More Muslims fighting extremists

https://www.facebook.com/Muslims-against-Muslim-Extremists-131364270225056/-- A Facebook page, dedicated to Muslims against Islamic extremism

https://twitter.com/refugeecouncil/status/687610719345479680- Syrian men in Germany condemn attacks on women.

Etc.

Edited January 23, 2016 by dialamah

[Hal 9000]

Kimmy, had no idea your anti-Islamic propaganda went back so far on this site! And to think I had you mistaken for someone who was at least a little open-minded on this issue!

Anyway, what else have the 'evil Muslims' been doing?

https://www.ted.com/talks/maajid_nawaz_a_global_culture_to_fight_extremism?language=en-- Muslim speaker calls for grassroots movement to expand democracy

https://www.scenesofreason.com/muslims-against-islamic-extremism/ More Muslims fighting extremists

https://www.facebook.com/Muslims-against-Muslim-Extremists-131364270225056/-- A Facebook page, dedicated to Muslims against Islamic extremism

https://twitter.com/refugeecouncil/status/687610719345479680- Syrian men in Germany condemn attacks on women.

Etc.

So, there are good muslims! No one is saying there aren't any good muslims - I know some. I also posted a video from a very inspirational muslim woman Raheel Raza, that you proceeded to trash. What is your point?

[Guest]

Kimmy, had no idea your anti-Islamic propaganda went back so far on this site! And to think I had you mistaken for someone who was at least a little open-minded on this issue!

Anyway, what else have the 'evil Muslims' been doing?

https://www.ted.com/talks/maajid_nawaz_a_global_culture_to_fight_extremism?language=en-- Muslim speaker calls for grassroots movement to expand democracy

https://www.scenesofreason.com/muslims-against-islamic-extremism/ More Muslims fighting extremists

https://www.facebook.com/Muslims-against-Muslim-Extremists-131364270225056/-- A Facebook page, dedicated to Muslims against Islamic extremism

https://twitter.com/refugeecouncil/status/687610719345479680- Syrian men in Germany condemn attacks on women.

Etc.

This echoes the discussion I was having with Hudson Jones on another thread. How come it is so hard to accept that the presence of decent people in an identifiable group does not preclude the presence of those who are not so decent, ranging from the mildly bigoted to the absolutely monstrous?

It's a very large group.

[Argus]

This echoes the discussion I was having with Hudson Jones on another thread. How come it is so hard to accept that the presence of decent people in an identifiable group does not preclude the presence of those who are not so decent, ranging from the mildly bigoted to the absolutely monstrous?

It's a very large group.

Quite right. You can't use individual members of a group to demonstrate group behaviour. You use the group itself. You examine how a group behaves when it is the majority, when it rules countries. Aside from that, of course, you can use individual behaviour if it recurs often enough, as in nearly 28,000 terrorist attacks in the name of Islam since 9/11.

[Argus]

This week in Islam we learn that the $681 MILLION dollars which the Saudi Royal family gave the Malaysian Prime Minister over the past year wasn't corruption at all! Nosirree! The prosecutor appointed by the prime minister, who fired his predecessor, says so! It was merely ah, uh 'personal donation', and nothing was expected in return.

I know I believe it.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/malaysias-attorney-general-najib-razak-received-681-million-personal-donation-from-saudi-royals-1453780909

[eyeball]

This week in Islam we learn that the $681 MILLION dollars which the Saudi Royal family gave the Malaysian Prime Minister over the past year wasn't corruption at all!

Since when did you start getting all concerned about how people conduct business amongst their own kind? Shouldn't you just be minding your own?

[Guest]

This week in Islam we learn that the $681 MILLION dollars which the Saudi Royal family gave the Malaysian Prime Minister over the past year wasn't corruption at all! Nosirree! The prosecutor appointed by the prime minister, who fired his predecessor, says so! It was merely ah, uh 'personal donation', and nothing was expected in return.

I know I believe it.

Was that donation related to Islam?

There are allegations that Netanyahu bribed the GOP to oppose and interfere with Iran nuclear negotiations. Is that a story about potential political corruption or one for a This Week In Judaism or Christianity thread?

When a billion dollars flood from Koch accounts to PACs funding the GOP it is just politics as usual, Christianity isn't mentioned at all.

[dialamah]

This echoes the discussion I was having with Hudson Jones on another thread. How come it is so hard to accept that the presence of decent people in an identifiable group does not preclude the presence of those who are not so decent, ranging from the mildly bigoted to the absolutely monstrous?

It's a very large group.

Probably the same reason it seems so hard to accept that the (minority) presence of the absolutely monstrous in an identifiable group does not preclude the (majority) presence of those who are mildly bigoted to the really decent people.

[Guest]

Probably the same reason it seems so hard to accept that the (minority) presence of the absolutely monstrous in an identifiable group does not preclude the (majority) presence of those who are mildly bigoted to the really decent people.

Not at all. I make that very point. Only a very few people in a group might be truly monstrous, but there is a wide range of egregious behaviour that can be called out. It should never be considered a bad thing to call out that behaviour, and it should never be considered a desirable thing to hide the race, culture, religion, politics, etc of the group to which the people you are describing belong. It might be incidental, or it might be the sole reason for their behaviour. That's what arguments are for.

[dialamah]

Not at all. I make that very point. Only a very few people in a group might be truly monstrous, but there is a wide range of egregious behaviour that can be called out. It should never be considered a bad thing to call out that behaviour, and it should never be considered a desirable thing to hide the race, culture, religion, politics, etc of the group to which the people you are describing belong. It might be incidental, or it might be the sole reason for their behaviour. That's what arguments are for.

Yes, if only the 'calling out' of bad behavior worked equally for everyone. We are treated to numerous examples of Islamic bad behavior, but non-Islamic bad behavior is barely noticed. If, for instance, a random white guy shoots up a school, it's never mentioned if he attended a particular church (unless it's a mosque); let a "middle-eastern looking' guy do almost anything anti-social, any and all of his mosque contacts' are detailed and and the mosque itself is under suspicion. If every instance of bad-white-guy behavior was associated with the last church he attended, I wonder how many "Christian" terrorists we'd have? Or even 'atheist' terrorists if no church had ever been attended.

So I agree, I think someone who commits criminal acts should be condemned. But because the majority of people do not commit criminal acts, I don't think their religion or even culture of that individual, should be mentioned. Unless, of course, every bad guy's religion and culture is going to be equally examined.

I also think that cultural and political influences are more germaine to these discussions than are religious influences. For instance, the cultural and or political reasons why Americans are so prone to shooting each other, and surely it's possible to have that discussion without condemning each and every American? And, similarly, cultural and political reasons why so many from the Middle East are joining extremists groups and carrying out terror attacks and again, surely it's possible to have that discussion without blaming every single Muslim on the planet? (Not that you are, by the way, just see it happening a lot).

[Guest]

Yes, if only the 'calling out' of bad behavior worked equally for everyone. We are treated to numerous examples of Islamic bad behavior, but non-Islamic bad behavior is barely noticed. If, for instance, a random white guy shoots up a school, it's never mentioned if he attended a particular church (unless it's a mosque); let a "middle-eastern looking' guy do almost anything anti-social, any and all of his mosque contacts' are detailed and and the mosque itself is under suspicion. If every instance of bad-white-guy behavior was associated with the last church he attended, I wonder how many "Christian" terrorists we'd have? Or even 'atheist' terrorists if no church had ever been attended.

So I agree, I think someone who commits criminal acts should be condemned. But because the majority of people do not commit criminal acts, I don't think their religion or even culture of that individual, should be mentioned. Unless, of course, every bad guy's religion and culture is going to be equally examined.

I also think that cultural and political influences are more germaine to these discussions than are religious influences. For instance, the cultural and or political reasons why Americans are so prone to shooting each other, and surely it's possible to have that discussion without condemning each and every American? And, similarly, cultural and political reasons why so many from the Middle East are joining extremists groups and carrying out terror attacks and again, surely it's possible to have that discussion without blaming every single Muslim on the planet? (Not that you are, by the way, just see it happening a lot).

No argument. I think the religion of a person should only be considered when it is relevant. I think the main arguments occur about whether it is relevant or not to given actions.

There are people who automatically, as a matter of course, take actions committed by Muslims in the name of their God and call them "nothing to do with Islam. Islam is a religion of peace". Barack Obama and David Cameron are two, (with the capability of influencing large groups of people and major policy decisions) who come immediately to mind. They were wrong. The actions to which they were referring had everything to do with Islam, and it is the reluctance to confront that fact that is the problem.

I also agree that the confluence of religion and culture is not at all well defined, and cultural actions and biases can often be blamed on religion, and vice versa. I think in many cases the two are simpy linked.

Regarding your point about guns and America. It's possible to have the conversation without blaming all Americans, but not, on here at least, without seeming to blame all gun owning Americans and all members of the NRA. Therein lies the difficulty in these arguments. It's not practical to disqualify all those we don't mean, every time we post.

Edited February 6, 2016 by bcsapper

[dialamah]

There are people who automatically, as a matter of course, take actions committed by Muslims in the name of their God and call them "nothing to do with Islam. Islam is a religion of peace". Barack Obama and David Cameron are two, (with the capability of influencing large groups of people and major policy decisions) who come immediately to mind. They were wrong. The actions to which they were referring had everything to do with Islam, and it is the reluctance to confront that fact that is the problem.

Perhaps so. I mentioned the show 'Occupied' a while ago. During the program, a Norwegian Terror group targets Russians within Norway. Intially the PM tries to work with the Russians, but eventually realizes the futility of doing so, and goes on TV to say to the people essentially: "We are in a fight with the Russians that we cannot win through military means. But, the Russians will learn that we will resist and they will not take us over without a fight". Immediately the terrorist group blows up a bunch of Russians, which of course makes the entire situation worse and now Norway is on the brink of open conflict with Russia. This is a fictional program, but it does highlight the difficulty faced by leaders, in that what they say can and does influence people. Perhaps its not so much they aren't facing the 'truth', but that they know if they say "Yes, these terror attacks are because of Islam", that the situation might be made worse both for non-violent Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

I believe it is possible discuss the 'gun culture' in America as being part of the problem they have with gun violence, and not even mention NRA members or Americans.

[tuvinel]

All religions are just stupid!

And ther is no relgion of peace!!!

why can not people just wake up?????????????????

It's not 2016 B.C!!!!!!

And why do we count time after a myth????????????

[tuvinel]

Yea but Mohammed had sexslaves, so why cant he's followers have one or two?

[davidmike]

The Islamic calendar is a lunar calendar consists of twelve months in a year and 354 days. There are either 29 or 30 days in each month, but they are not in order. It is also called as Muslim calendar or Hijri calendar.

Sukhbir Singh Badal

[betsy]

Above and beyond. This took a lot of courage.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12116399/Muslim-doctor-and-sister-help-convict-Isil-supporters-after-confronting-them.html

Bravo to those sisters.

[betsy]

Kimmy, had no idea your anti-Islamic propaganda went back so far on this site! And to think I had you mistaken for someone who was at least a little open-minded on this issue!

Anyway, what else have the 'evil Muslims' been doing?

https://www.ted.com/talks/maajid_nawaz_a_global_culture_to_fight_extremism?language=en-- Muslim speaker calls for grassroots movement to expand democracy

https://www.scenesofreason.com/muslims-against-islamic-extremism/ More Muslims fighting extremists

https://www.facebook.com/Muslims-against-Muslim-Extremists-131364270225056/-- A Facebook page, dedicated to Muslims against Islamic extremism

https://twitter.com/refugeecouncil/status/687610719345479680- Syrian men in Germany condemn attacks on women.

Etc.

Technically, the good "Muslims" who stand opposed to fundamentalist Islamists, and who side with infidels, embrace the western lifestyle, are no longer Muslims.

They're what you call, "apostates." Apostacy is punishable by death.

A person is considered apostate if he or she converts from Islam to another religion.^[56] A person is an apostate even if he or she believes in most of Islam, but verbally or in writing denies of one or more principles or precepts of Islam.^[56]

^{(h) to pay respect to a non-Muslim.}

denies, doubts or refuses to obey Quran and the Law (Sharia), or questions the validity of sharia courts;

has consciously and deliberately rejected or consciously and deliberately intends to reject any part or all of Quran or of Islam religion (Sharia).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Thus, these folks are very much in danger from ISIS, or any Islamist terrorist groups.

If they still identify with, and want to be identified as Muslims, I'd go along with their preference, and respect it.

That reason alone, underlines the logic why some Muslims support the proposal of Donald Trump, to temporarily ban non-US citizen Muslims from entering the USA.

Edited April 4, 2016 by betsy

[Guest]

Saudis have taste. Who knew?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-crackdown-on-unislamic-hairstyles-forces-footballer-to-have-pitch-side-haircut-a6977321.html

[Guest]

If he actually had a God, his God would love him.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/dhaka-attack-shooting-bangladesh-muslim-victim-terrorist-hostage-latest-bakery-a7116746.html

[Guest]

This is a welcome gesture.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36936658

[eyeball]

Your recognition of their gesture is too.

[Guest]

Your recognition of their gesture is too.

I like to make the point that it is easy to separate the good from the bad. I've made a few such posts in this thread.

Edited July 31, 2016 by bcsapper

[Argus]

It's hard to keep up this thread since we would have to be posting into it 24hrs a day, but this story strikes a chord for its foreshadowing of our own future. Muslim refugees attacked tourists and locals when a tourist took pictures of a Muslim woman in a 'burkini' at the beach.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/tourist-photographs-women-in-burkinis-on-beach-in-corsica-and-mass-brawl-erupts-involving-harpoon-hatchets

[Argus]

Meanwhile we see the utter hypocrisy of the liberal left in a case in Edmonton, where the Edmonton bus service removed an ad by a non-profit group to help Muslim girls being threatened by their families because it was deemed insulting to Islam. However, the same bus service had no problem with an ad promoting Islam and ignored complaints that it was insulting to Jews and Christians.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-carpay-defending-the-right-to-speak-out-against-honour-killings

[Guest]

Meanwhile we see the utter hypocrisy of the liberal left in a case in Edmonton, where the Edmonton bus service removed an ad by a non-profit group to help Muslim girls being threatened by their families because it was deemed insulting to Islam. However, the same bus service had no problem with an ad promoting Islam and ignored complaints that it was insulting to Jews and Christians.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-carpay-defending-the-right-to-speak-out-against-honour-killings

Like I said earlier, it's not the views, it's the airing of the views. The left has levels.