This week in Islam

[WIP]

Also worked in Canada for ethnically cleansing Acadians and conquering First Nations for God and Crown. Godtalk ran residential schools in Canada until 1996 !

The expulsion of the Acadians was a clear example of ethnic cleansing, and possibly even genocide; as the letters from some of the British officials of the time doubted that they would survive the journey and life in the swamps of southern Louisiana. They didn't want mass execution of civilians,but they seemed to have been trying to accomplish the task indirectly.

When it came to dealing with the natives, the governors of British North America/later Canada had to take a go-slow approach, since we did not have near the numbers to achieve the kind of Indian Wars that went on in the U.S. at the end of the Civil War. But, afterwards, as new Canadians increased in numbers, natives out west discovered that they didn't have as much control over most of their lands as they thought they had. It's a toss-up when it comes to who has the worst history when it comes to dealing with Aboriginal issues. The residential schools are an example of cultural cleansing - "taking the indian out of the indian," and leaving behind an empty shell and shattered communities.

So, what's the takeaway? Canadians have been just as bad as Americans? I'll buy that; but I don't see any gain in "your country is worse than my country!"

[bush_cheney2004]

....So, what's the takeaway? Canadians have been just as bad as Americans? I'll buy that; but I don't see any gain in "your country is worse than my country!"

Agreed...as always, mine is an amoral perspective. Competition....conflict....context.... make for interesting history.

[Argus]

The expulsion of the Acadians was a clear example of ethnic cleansing,

Not quite. You might recall we have a few Francophones in Quebec and they weren't expelled. The difference was the Acadians refused to swear an oath of loyalty to Britain and refused to stop helping the French, who were still at war with the British.

[Rue]

Think for a second: if Islam and Muslim populations seek to exterminate all other religions, how the hell were Christians...and many other smaller sects, including Jews, able to survive and flourish in Muslim nations for centuries? Egypt and Iraq and some other Arab nations had large Jewish populations for centuries until the modern state of Israel was created, and Egypt and much of the rest of the Arab World responded with Pan-Arabism and forced them into exile....mostly ending up in Israel as the most hawkish and vengeful segment of the modern Israeli State!

Your comment above is based on two misquided and defective assumptions.

1-Jews and non Muslims did not flourish in the Muslim world;

2-the Jews that were expelled and moved to Israel, the Tsfardic Jews or Mitzrahi Jews are in fact not Hawkish-the Hawks come from American extremists who moved to the West Bank or Russians-in fact Mitzrahi Jews or Tsfardic Jews have experienced similiar cultural biases and tensions as Muslim Jews have and its not based on politics its based on perceived cultural values as to sex, food, music, art.

With due respect your assumtions are defective.

I have provided some perspectives from others to counter yours about Islam today and in the past such as:

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2013/May/Christian-Jewish-Persecution-Up-in-Muslim-Nations/

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2013/09/20/treatment-religious-minorities-muslim-lands/

http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/rights.htm

http://www.jpost.com/International/Report-charting-persecution-of-Christians-worldwide-reveals-most-abuse-in-Muslim-countries-338682

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFtreatment.html

http://www.jewishtribune.ca/religion/2012/11/06/persecution-of-middle-east-christians

http://middleeastfacts.com/Articles/history-of-jews-in-arab-countries.php

http://leejaywalker.wordpress.com/tag/persecution-of-jews-in-iraq/

http://www.aina.org/reports/mpoc.pdf

Anyone who has read my posts knows I have mentioned the persecution in the Muslim world is with Jews but also Assyrians, Coptics, Catholics, other kinds of Christians, Ahmidya, Ismaili Muslims, Druze, Bebers, Kurds, and other minority groups.

The actual religious tension between Jews, Christians and Islams did not magically start in Iraq once Hussein was removed.

To take a snap shot of history then use that to blame it all on the US is absurd.

Most conflicts in the Middle East can be dated back to a non stop cause and effect sequence of inter-related conflicts over a 4,000 year period maybe even longer. It has nothing to do with starting with the US or Israel and everything to do with the pith and substance of how religions mutated in meaning and size of followers taking on beliefs and ideologies that would conflict in regards to such things as land ownership, access to water, food, work.

[Shady]

Terrorist attack in Paris kills 11 over depictions over the ISIS leader and the beloved prophet. #ReligionOfPeace strikes again.

[BubberMiley]

Terrorist attack in Paris kills 11 over depictions over the ISIS leader and the beloved prophet. #ReligionOfPeace strikes again.

I agree. Religion is never peaceful. It's always a power struggle that leads to war.

[Argus]

Terrorist attack in Paris kills 11 over depictions over the ISIS leader and the beloved prophet. #ReligionOfPeace strikes again.

I'm shocked and appalled at your obvious racism, bigotry and xenophobia! It's clear the individuals responsible are mentally ill and that religion had nothing whatsoever to do with this attack! :angry:

[WIP]

Agreed...as always, mine is an amoral perspective. Competition....conflict....context.... make for interesting history.

I don't see much point to an "amoral" perspective, unless you are either a fascist (might is right) or a psychopath.

[WIP]

Not quite. You might recall we have a few Francophones in Quebec and they weren't expelled. The difference was the Acadians refused to swear an oath of loyalty to Britain and refused to stop helping the French, who were still at war with the British.

Maybe. It certainly is ancient history now. But, the refusal to swear an oath to the British Crown could just as easily been motivated from religious reasoning, rather than political loyalties....since the King of England was also the head of the Anglican Church. Whatever reasoning, the British governor who ordered the expulsion made no distinction between rebels or neutral Acadians....he wanted them all removed. And this was at a time when all travel by sea was a dangerous, life-threatening operation.

In retrospect, it still was deliberate ethnic cleansing and likely an attempted genocide to "cull" the numbers of Acadians who were mostly sent off to other British colonies. At the time, Britain and France were competing colonial empires, who both thought they had the right to plunder new lands and kill, enslave or remove native populations when they established new colonies. So, it's not something to celebrate, whatever your heritage happens to be!

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't see much point to an "amoral" perspective, unless you are either a fascist (might is right) or a psychopath.

Well, might is certainly right, even if it is for the wrong reasons. I prefer photographs over paintings.

Edited January 7, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[WIP]

Your comment above is based on two misquided and defective assumptions.

1-Jews and non Muslims did not flourish in the Muslim world;

2-the Jews that were expelled and moved to Israel, the Tsfardic Jews or Mitzrahi Jews are in fact not Hawkish-the Hawks come from American extremists who moved to the West Bank or Russians-in fact Mitzrahi Jews or Tsfardic Jews have experienced similiar cultural biases and tensions as Muslim Jews have and its not based on politics its based on perceived cultural values as to sex, food, music, art.

With due respect your assumtions are defective.

My point was not that Jews and Christians and other minority sects flourished in Muslim lands/ it was that during normal times of relative calm and no epidemics or famines, the prospects for minorities in Muslim lands....yes right in those caliphates that Christofanatics foam at the mouth about these days...life was better for minorities than it was in Christian Europe!

Evidence can be observed both from the notable emigres to Muslim lands like the pivotal Jewish theologian & scholar - Moses Maimonides joining the migration out of reconquered Spain, to the fact that the general trend over the centuries was for Jews to leave Europe and migrate to Muslim territories.

It's hard to encapsulate the entire history, and there certainly was a cycle of violence and oppression in different regions at times, but in Europe, the only thing that saved Jews from complete genocide and ethnic cleansing was the fact that the laws in most of Europe forbidding Jews to own land or property, led them to develop necessary trades and crafts that were essential in many cities....especially goldsmithing/ which transitioned to banking, as the town goldsmilth was usually the only person with a proper safe to secure gold or other valuables. Add to this, the fact that they did not have to observe the prohibition against usury, at a time when middle classes were beginning to rise out of feudalism, and their survival in Europe may have been due in large part to being handed the entire banking industry on a silver platter!

*I just had to mention that one, because the big conspiracist point that constantly circulates around, about the Jews controlling the world banks...if true, is because the good Christians of Europe gave it away to Jewish goldsmith/bankers!

Now, back to the Muslim World...the first Caliphs deemed Jews to be 2nd class (dhimmis)...like Christians, as People of the Book, and required to pay a special tax for dhimmitude. But, the part of the story that doesn't get mentioned in Islamophobic rhetoric, was that the dhimmitude tax was expected as a concession for not having to pick up the sword and fight on behalf of the Caliphate! Especially early on, when the Caliphs were more likely to have viewed themselves as religious leaders, they held the belief that the Islamic Caliphate had to expand (by force if necessary) to subdue the entire world. So, the average Muslim male would be required to fight in the Army of Islam in wars of conquest, and later on, more likely in the many wars to defend the Caliphate from foreign attack and internal wars and divisions. In that light, if the average Jew or Christian would have to go off and fight, or face the prospect of his sons and grandsons fighting, it was likely an easy choice to choose dhimmitude and pay the tax...except during those times of unrest, as mentioned, when....wherever you look, it's minorities who are not considered equal or the same as the general population, who are at risk of attack!

This is nothing special about Islam vs. Christianity vs. Judaism vs Hinduism vs. Buddhism or even today vs secular humanism! Every population group that is viewed as separate and different (by race, religion, ethnicity...or even sexual orientation) can be at risk of attack, especially when times get tough. And for me, that is the main reason why self-examination of motives and tolerance of others have to be important values to have and to teach others...especially our children!

The failing I see in the modern State of Israel, and even the attitude that many Jews elsewhere are taking, is that they are still wearing that Holocaust card as a shield of denial that because of being the persecuted minority for so long, and having endured an attempted eradication in Europe 70 years ago, they are immune from becoming the persecutors, and the agents of oppression, ethnic cleansing and genocide. Check every other statement by Netanyahu as a quick example.

It goes off on a whole nother topic, but whatever the justifications are cited about how evil and unreasonable Palestinians are, the situation in Israel today is a government that is deliberately carrying out a strategy of gradual ethnic cleansing to expand Jewish territories. If there was a built-in safety switch to prevent Israeli leaders from becoming the oppressors and persecutors half a century ago, that inner compass has been lost on present generations who only know of a Holocaust as history, like everyone else, and have no first hand perspective on the events.

I have provided some perspectives from others to counter yours about Islam today and in the past such as:

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2013/May/Christian-Jewish-Persecution-Up-in-Muslim-Nations/

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2013/09/20/treatment-religious-minorities-muslim-lands/

http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/rights.htm

Consider your sources!

First one, I don't even trust the 700 club news service to tell me if it's raining outside, let alone provide any sort of useful analysis of....just about any issue!

When it comes to Islam, their polarity is to only focus on every story that puts Muslims and their religion in a bad light because: a. they are Christian nationalist fascists who make a ridiculous claim of America being specially blessed by God and necessary to become a 'Christian' nation, and they are Christian Zionists...a strange animal that I couldn't figure out for years until I read the logic of this ideology which goes: the 2nd Coming and the Rapture are precipitated by an attempt of the enemies of Israel to gather and try to destroy them - making that final war in the Middle East a prerequisite of fulfilling their prophetic faith.

Looking at the Christian Zionist movement in total, why not throw gasoline on the fire? And become a major contributor for funding of new Jewish settlements in the West Bank (which they do) and even financial support for the Temple Movement - the group that wants to destroy the Al Aqsa Mosque and replace it with the third Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

But, why do people who believe all who do not profess belief in their version of Jesus the Saviour, want to give so much support to non-Christians? Because in that final battle of Armageddon, one third of the Jews in Israel will die, and the other two thirds will make a late-in-the-4th-quarter conversion to Christianity. If I was the average Jewish Zionist in Israel, I would be at least a little uncomfortable having these kinds of people as my allies!

But, the extreme Zionists are well aware of what their Christian allies actually believe and think of them, but are willing to go along and be friends, because friends of this sort are hard to find! There are even one or two Christian Zionist ranchers in the U.S. who are trying to breed that 'perfect unblemished red heifer' who is essential to the orthodox Zionists of the Temple Movement as the inaugural sacrifice when that third temple opens its doors someday.

Let's hope it can't happen; but a similar event took place in India some years ago, as rising Hindu fundamendalists demanded the destruction of a mosque they claim was built over their razed temple to the Hindu god - Rama. What a world!

2nd source: another anti-Islam blogger who repeats the same message that I first read more than 10 years ago. A little historical context would help, when evaluating most of these stories about how bad westerners are treated in Muslim countries.

In general, I would say that the Muslim World responded with greater hostility to the progression of European colonization than most other regions of the world...especially Latin America! Partly because they are foreigners with foreign religion who speak foreign languages, but also it is claimed by some social historians that Muslim leaders and scholars as a whole, never recovered from their own loss of empire,when the last caliphate became totally corrupted and eventually collapsed. The response to the collapse drove both the waves of nationalism and secularism (which America tried to destroy because they tended to be left wing and non-compliant to U.S. interests) and the rebirth of fundamentalism. Some books I read awhile back, noted that at least up till the mid-19th century, there were no women shrouded in niqaabs or burqas even in most of Arabia. The rise of Wahabbism came in tandem with the rise of the Saud dynasty, and had the approval and support of the U.S. right from the beginning. ................................................................and, I'm out of time again! I'll have to look at the others later.

[BubberMiley]

I'm shocked and appalled at your obvious racism, bigotry and xenophobia! It's clear the individuals responsible are mentally ill and that religion had nothing whatsoever to do with this attack! :angry:

That's ridiculous. Religion had everything to do with it.

[Argus]

That's ridiculous. Religion had everything to do with it.

Nonsense! They're clearly mentally ill, and probably using drugs and the victims of a racist system which mistreated them!

[BubberMiley]

Nonsense! They're clearly mentally ill, and probably using drugs and the victims of a racist system which mistreated them!

That's an insult to mentally ill drug users.

[Mighty AC]

Nonsense! They're clearly mentally ill, and probably using drugs and the victims of a racist system which mistreated them!

Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if our culture valued belief grounded in evidence and reality? We love to applaud our technological, societal and educational advances yet the majority of the world still holds a belief in supernatural magic men. We have landed spacecraft on comet, yet our lawmakers still operate in accordance to the writings of people that feared them as signs from an angry, supernatural tormentor. Instead of stamping out irrational, unsupported rantings we protect and support them.

[Bonam]

Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if our culture valued belief grounded in evidence and reality?

The important parts of our culture - those that get anything done - do.

[Mighty AC]

The important parts of our culture - those that get anything done - do.

I agree that those advancing our knowledge have left the shackles of mysticism behind, but what about the lawmakers for hire? The people that tilt the playing field? Whether you think they simply use religion to secure the support of the ignorant masses or actually subscribe to the woo themselves, the result is the same; unfounded belief is a dire problem.

[Michael Hardner]

................................................................and, I'm out of time again! I'll have to look at the others later.

Very interesting post. Thank you.

[Michael Hardner]

The important parts of our culture - those that get anything done - do.

Yes and no. The most important part of our culture, IMO, are our values: openness, and the idea of pluralism in general... the marketplace of ideas, dialogue and so on. There's no 'evidence' that such values are 'better' as such, but our societies succeed as they do because we believe in them.

[Michael Hardner]

...unfounded belief is a dire problem.

I don't think it is. The influence of religion on policy is vastly overstated - economics trumps all. And we have religion to thank for the foundations of our values too, including debating what is right/wrong such as what we're doing in this thread. Protestantism split the Christian religions during the Reformation and gave birth to the 'live and let live' philosophy between Christian factions, which laid the groundwork for western democracy, separation of church and state and so on.

[Mighty AC]

I don't think it is. The influence of religion on policy is vastly overstated - economics trumps all. And we have religion to thank for the foundations of our values too, including debating what is right/wrong such as what we're doing in this thread. Protestantism split the Christian religions during the Reformation and gave birth to the 'live and let live' philosophy between Christian factions, which laid the groundwork for western democracy, separation of church and state and so on.

We have human values to thank. The scriptures haven't changed, yet people have continually tempered, apologized for and ignored so called religious morals. We have people to thank for the taming and ending of slavery, racism, misogyny, homophobia, sectarian violence and the general physical violence prescribed by religion.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Mighty AC

[AngusThermopyle]

economics trumps all

This is obviously not true. One merely has to look to many middle eastern countries to see this assertion soundly refuted.

[Michael Hardner]

This is obviously not true. One merely has to look to many middle eastern countries to see this assertion soundly refuted.

Like which ones ? I actually learned this Maxim on MLW from BC, Morris and others...

[Michael Hardner]

We have human values to thank.

Maybe, but moral codes were codified within those values using technologies and group mores.

We have people to thank for the taming and ending of slavery, racism, misogyny, homophobia, sectarian violence and the general physical violence prescribed by religion.

People who formed philosophies, engaged in discussion and evolved our group morals if you will. Religion was a foundation for codified rules of human coexistence, going back to Sumeria.

[Mighty AC]

People who formed philosophies, engaged in discussion and evolved our group morals if you will. Religion was a foundation for codified rules of human coexistence, going back to Sumeria.

No, I'd say the morals involved in the social structures that organized families, clans, tribes, etc. predated the creation of religions. However, religions are evidence of human attempts to explain life, the universe and everything, and enforce certain behavioural standards, orders and classes at various points in time.