This week in Islam

[DogOnPorch]

4 minutes ago, Goddess said:

It's a lovely interpretation and  there are many Muslims who follow your interpretation.  In reality, you prove Dog's point - that the violent verses and directives in the Koran must be ignored by Muslims in order for it to be a peaceful Islam.  They must ignore the directive to emulate Mohammed.

There are also many Muslims who do not share your interpretation of "The People of the Book".  And it seems that many, even here in Canada, are not being taught your interpretation of the Koran, as evidenced by the Jew-hating Al Qud festivals held across Canada (and the world) every year since 1979, which are well-supported by Muslims.

How do you rationalize those two realities?

http://www.cjnews.com/news/canada/toronto-al-quds-day-rally-will-go-ahead-despite-efforts-to-stop-it

http://www.jdl-canada.com/tag/al-quds-day/

https://www.therebel.media/top_10_toronto_al_quds_day_hezbollah_flags_calls_for_eradication_of_israelis

 

Also, how do non-Muslims trust your interpretation is the right one, while witnessing these hate-fests against the very "People of the Book" that they claim to respect?  Do we believe what they SAY, or do be believe their ACTIONS?

 

 

As you're likely aware, the Median verses replace the Mecca verses once the Jews rejected Mohammad. He is said to have beheaded many Jews himself in response to this rejection.

 

[DogOnPorch]

This cartoon summarizes early Islam under Big Mo. Big Mo is the skinny guy...

Edited November 9, 2018 by DogOnPorch

[Goddess]

6 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

As you're likely aware, the Median verses replace the Mecca verses once the Jews rejected Mohammad. He is said to have beheaded many Jews himself in response to this rejection.

 

Hirsi Ali also divides Muslims into two groups - Medina Muslims and Mecca Muslims.

Quote

 

Ali’s analysis begins with the idea that conventionally minded Muslims typically can be divided into two groups — “Mecca Muslims” and “Medina Muslims.” These names correspond to the ancient cities (now in Saudi Arabia) where the Prophet Muhammad first rose to prominence. The teachings attributed to Muhammad during his time in Mecca generally are more peaceful in tone. But years later, after he had fled to Medina and become a ruthless desert warlord, his teachings increasingly became streaked with themes of violence and forcible submission. One example is the infamous Sword verse from Sura 9, which exhorts, in part: “Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem [of war].”

Ali believes that Medina Muslims — who refer to Jews and Christians as “pigs and monkeys,” and applaud the mob-slaughter of children who accidentally deface the Koran — are largely immune to rational intellectual discourse. 

 

Quote

 

Ali is not the first author to call for a Muslim “reformation.” But her manifesto is unusually detailed, identifying a group of specific precepts that must be “repudiated and nullified” before Islam can become a humane faith. These include:

1. The conceptualization of Mohammed as a “semi-divine” superman;
2. The obsession with the delights and torments of life beyond the grave;
3. The encroachment of Islam into every aspect of human life through the institution of shariah; and
4. The imperative to wage jihad.

Certainly, no one can accuse Ali of thinking small: in the most violent and pathologized parts of the Islamic world (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, for instance), these precepts lie at the very heart of mainstream Muslim identity.

After journalist Steven Sotloff was decapitated by ISIL in September 2014, Barack Obama assured Americans that “ISIL is not ‘Islamic.’ No religion condones the killing of innocents.” This kind of naïve aphorism drives Ali nuts.

“It simply will not do for Muslims to claim that their religion has been ‘hijacked’ by extremists,” she writes. “The killers of IS and Boko Haram cite the same religious texts that every other Muslim in the world considers sacrosanct.” The clear corollary to this is that reform will be impossible if “Mecca Muslims” don’t acknowledge that Mohammed was a flawed human being like the rest of us, and that many of the precepts in the holy book containing his prophecies are inhumane, obsolete and barbaric.

 

 

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

Hirsi Ali also divides Muslims into two groups - Medina Muslims and Mecca Muslims.

 

 

He took the rejection...poorly.

He also had a thing for killing poets...too much satire!

[DogOnPorch]

Imagine if Jesus was a mass murderer...it would make a strange twist of his message of Go and do thou likewise!

[Goddess]

Cog Diss must be very difficult for Muslims to navigate.  On the one hand they are taught that to be a good Muslim they must emulate Mohammed as a perfect human.  On the other hand, his example is one of violent and barbaric intolerance for others, that naturally goes against most people's humanity.  They can't just walk away and live according to what they interpret to be right, nor can they be vocal about this without incurring the wrath of the Muslim community and often their families.

We had a few Muslims show up on the JW recovery board (also some Mormons and various others).  We could help Mormons and such - they knew they would lose their families and be shunned by leaving the religion.  Muslims who wanted to leave were afraid for their lives and we had to direct them to go to the police for protection.  We had board meetings about it where we decided that, not being professionals, we were not in a position to help Muslims as much as we could others and felt the best thing (even legally) was to direct them to support more suited to their needs.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

Cog Diss must be very difficult for Muslims to navigate.  On the one hand they are taught that to be a good Muslim they must emulate Mohammed as a perfect human.  On the other hand, his example is one of violent and barbaric intolerance for others, that naturally goes against most people's humanity.  They can't just walk away and live according to what they interpret to be right, nor can they be vocal about this without incurring the wrath of the Muslim community and often their families.

We had a few Muslims show up on the JW recovery board (also some Mormons and various others).  We could help Mormons and such - they knew they would lose their families and be shunned by leaving the religion.  Muslims who wanted to leave were afraid for their lives and we had to direct them to go to the police for protection.  We had board meetings about it where we decided that, not being professionals, we were not in a position to help Muslims as much as we could others and felt the best thing (even legally) was to direct them to support more suited to their needs.

 

It doesn't help that the claim is also that the Quran was not written by humans...but by Allah...and is...thus...not open to revision or moderation. 

[Goddess]

32 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Imagine if Jesus was a mass murderer...it would make a strange twist of his message of Go and do thou likewise!

Most of the differences between Christian denominations involve doctrinal things.  As a JW Christian, we did not believe in the Trinity and were taught that Christians who believed in it, were false.  At some point, I concluded that if God wanted to destroy me because I was unclear about the nature of spiritual bodies (Is he 3 gods in one?  Is he 1 god? How many personalities does this guy have?) he could go right ahead.

It should not be a debate in a religion whether it is right to kill non-believers or not, as it is in Islam.  That's just my opinion and how I appraise any religion.

[DogOnPorch]

20 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Most of the differences between Christian denominations involve doctrinal things.  As a JW Christian, we did not believe in the Trinity and were taught that Christians who believed in it, were false.  At some point, I concluded that if God wanted to destroy me because I was unclear about the nature of spiritual bodies (Is he 3 gods in one?  Is he 1 god? How many personalities does this guy have?) he could go right ahead.

It should not be a debate in a religion whether it is right to kill non-believers or not, as it is in Islam.  That's just my opinion and how I appraise any religion.

 

Murder is permitted under Islam for two main reasons: Revenge and spreading fitnah/fasad. The latter is open-ended. Fitnah = strife while Fasad = corruption. That's pretty subjective...

Edited November 9, 2018 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

...and here's the main verse supporting that.

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

https://quran.com/5/32

[Goddess]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-islam-reformers-vs-the-muslim-zealots/2015/03/27/acf6de6c-d3ed-11e4-ab77-9646eea6a4c7_story.html?utm_term=.67b09ad7414d

 

This is a good analysis of difference between supporting reform in Islam and apologizing for Islam.

When apologists say that the West, poverty etc (anything BUT Islamic doctrine) is responsible for Islamic terror, reformers view that as a simplistic excuse:

Quote

 

The ferment we see in the Muslim world today is not solely due to despotic political systems, and it is not solely due to failing economies and the poverty they breed. Rather, it is also due largely to Islam itself and the incompatibility of certain of that faith’s key tenets with modernity. That is why the most important conflict in the world today is between those who are hell-bent on preserving, and even increasing, these incompatibilities, and those who are bravely prepared to challenge them — not to overthrow Islam but to reform it.

But the majority of dissidents are reformist believers who have come to realize that their religion must change if its followers are not to be condemned to an interminable cycle of violence.

 

Apologists who label anyone concerned about Islamic terrorism as "Islamophobes" and "racists" and "xenophobes" are mistaken that they pose no threat to Western democracy and it is clearly used as an apologist tactic to shut down discussion, which only helps the extremists:

Quote

The first group — the Islamist zealots — poses a threat to everyone. In the West, the existence of this group promises not only an increasing risk of terrorism but also a subtle erosion of the hard-won achievements of feminists and campaigners for minority rights: gender equality, religious tolerance and gay rights. And anyone who denies that this threat is growing — not only in Europe but in North America, too — just hasn’t looked at the data on immigration and on Muslim immigrants’ attitudes.

But the zealots’ vision of a violent return to the days of the prophet poses an even bigger threat to their fellow Muslims. They are undermining the position of the majority who simply want to lead a quiet life. Worse, they pose a constant lethal threat to the dissidents and reformers. We are the ones who face ostracism and rejection, who must brave all manner of insults, who must deal with the death threats — or face death itself.

Apologists like to spout cliches about "moderate" Muslims and "Islam is the religion of Peace" and this is no way helps reformers and true moderates:

 

Quote

 

Western policymakers today are so fearful of being accused of Islamophobia that they generally won’t touch Muslim reformers with a 10-foot pole. They would much rather make nice with the self-proclaimed representatives of “moderate Islam,” who on close inspection often turn out but to be anything but moderate. For this reason, our leaders are missing the boat on the Muslim Reformation.

“It is not your job,” Western governments are told, “to help bring about religious change.” So Western leaders stick to their decade-old script: “Islam is a religion of peace.”

 

Quote

The time for euphemism is over. The time for reform of Islam is, at long last, now.

In short, apologists are recognized by:

Blaming the West for everything that goes on in Islam

Touting the extremist party lines of "Islam is peace" and it's only a tiny miniscule minority of trouble-makers 

Labelling people "Islamophobes, racists and xenophobes" if they want to discuss the need for reform in Islam.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Goddess

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Imagine if Jesus was a mass murderer...

What is there to imagine, he wiped out most of the human race when he was in Dad mode.

You gotta love it when atheists apologize for religion.

Edited November 9, 2018 by eyeball

[Goddess]

Just now, eyeball said:

What is there to imagine, he wiped out most of the human race when he was in Dad mode.

This is why I don't take parenting advice from someone who felt they had to drown all their children.

[DogOnPorch]

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

What is there to imagine, he wiped out most of the human race when he was in Dad mode.

You gotta love it when atheists apologize for religion.

 

Feel free to list the people Jesus murdered....in the Bible or in Roman historical works.

Big Mo killed over 900 himself according to Islamic sources.

 

[DogOnPorch]

Jokes and Judaism aside, Jesus's message was not murder.

[DogOnPorch]

As for Noah...the Gilgamesh Myth stolen for Judaeo-Christian purposes.

Don't you people know this?

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, Goddess said:

This is why I don't take parenting advice from someone who felt they had to drown all their children.

DOP's latest brain-fart re Christ is why you should treat everything he says about the histories of religions and especially where they intersect with realities in the present with no more seriousness than you would treat something from...Alfred E. Newman.

 

 

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

DOP's latest brain-fart re Christ is why you should treat everything he says about the histories of religions and especially where they intersect with realities in the present with no more seriousness than you would treat something from...Alfred E. Newman.

 

 

 

You can pretend Muhammad wasn't real all you wish.

[Goddess]

Just now, eyeball said:

DOP's latest brain-fart re Christ is why you should treat everything he says about the histories of religions and especially where they intersect with realities in the present with no more seriousness than you would treat something from...Alfred E. Newman.

 

 

I've read enough about the histories of religions to know when Dog is putting history into his own words and when he's merely giving his thoughts and/or opinions on how it all played out.  

But thanks for the warning.  We all have our agendas.

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I've read enough about the histories of religions to know when Dog is putting history into his own words and when he's merely giving his thoughts and/or opinions on how it all played out.  

But thanks for the warning.  We all have our agendas.

 

My agenda is simple: not allowing Canada to become the 58th OIC country at the UN.

[eyeball]

7 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

My agenda is simple: not allowing Canada to become the 58th OIC country at the UN.

No argument there.  Canada has little to no business being in the UN period never mind as a religious nation.

We belong in the UN's peanut gallery at best.  The UN sits very high on the list of human organizations enabling the geopolitical vandalism that's wrecking our world.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, eyeball said:

No argument there.  Canada has little to no business being in the UN period never mind as a religious nation.

We belong in the UN's peanut gallery at best.  The UN sits very high on the list of human organizations enabling the geopolitical vandalism that's wrecking our world.

 

What's Islam's plan for Canada?

 

[eyeball]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

 

What's Islam's plan for Canada?

 

Supremacy, the same as Christianity, chem-trail conspiracists, Doug Ford, particle physicists.... My money is on the latter.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Supremacy, the same as Christianity, chem-trail conspiracists, Doug Ford, particle physicists.... My money is on the latter.

 

Supremacy over all Canada...but not the same as Christianity. Let the hangings begin.

[dialamah]

On 11/7/2018 at 7:28 PM, dialamah said:

 DoP when he posts "Muslims are commanded by Allah to kill unbelievers, and if they don't believe that, they are not real Muslims".  

 

On 11/8/2018 at 12:20 AM, DogOnPorch said:

I didn't say any such thing. You're quite the liar when cornered.

September 11, 2016 you said:

Islam is a dangerous ideology due to its promise of great reward for violence perpetrated in the name of Allah. Martyrdom and Jihad combine together to make a potent carrot over the stick that would be one's mortality. What's worse, is that apparently peaceful Muslims can suddenly turn 'radical' and act on the Quran's orders...Allah's orders.

A scenario where a Muslim puts himself into enough sin that he would surly be going to the Hell-fires...but cleanses away the sin by becoming a Shahid is not out of the question.

May 23, 2017:

A Muslim follows Islam. The Infidel is Islam's enemy. The Quran ORDERS Muslims to fight the Unbeliever until ALL religion is for Allah.  

May 9, 2017:

All Muslims are suspect because their holy book orders them to fight the unbeliever.

September 3, 2017:

Muslims practice Islam. If you don't practice Islam...you're not a Muslim. Islam is from the Quran and Hadiths. No other source is needed. 

Your message is very clear:  Islam tells Muslims to kill unbelievers; if they do not kill unbelievers, they are not Muslims.  These are the arguments you use to dismiss any teaching of Islam that might be used to promote 'moderate' Islam, or reform of Islam.