This week in Islam

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And just to be clear, the Koran also says Jews are people of the book and are to be treated with respect and allowed to practice their religion in peace.  The koran also says that murder is wrong, terroism is wrong, that jihad is an internal struggle of faith.  This is what moderate Muslims, such as the guy in the cite I provided this morning, use to guide their lives to live peacefully with others.

That you prefer the terrorist's and extremist's interpretation of the Koran and use that to demonize Muslims says a lot about you, none of it good.

 

Abrogated verse...I know more about your Quran than you do. Yet here you are defending this death cult with its very real track record of violence, Jew-hate, subjugation of women...etc, etc.

 

[Goddess]

40 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And just to be clear, the Koran also says Jews are people of the book and are to be treated with respect and allowed to practice their religion in peace.  The koran also says that murder is wrong, terroism is wrong, that jihad is an internal struggle of faith. 

Is that what it SAYS or is that another interpretation of what it says?  Doggo at least provides the actual verses. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Goddess

[Goddess]

23 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Is that what it SAYS or is that another interpretation of what it says?  Doggo at least provides the actual verses. 

For instance, you say the Koran clearly states jihad is internal.  This Muslim scholar disagrees with you.  And he quotes the actual verses and explains them.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/nabeel-qureshi/is-the-quran-the-roots-of-jihad_b_9594484.html

 

Quote

 

Only by going against the grain of Islamic tradition, deeming these traditions to be unreliable, can an investigator avoid the violence inherent in the origins of Islam.

When I was a Muslim, I tried my best to do exactly that, individually dismissing account after account of Muhammad’s violence. But after at least a hundred such accounts, I realized they were ubiquitous. Considering just one aspect of his life in tradition, his conduct with enemies, we find that Muhammad would invoke curses upon them, encourage his men to compose insults and abusive poetry, on one occasion asking Allah to fill peoples’ homes with flames simply because they delayed the Muslims in their daily prayers.

At other times Muhammad sent assassins to kill his enemies in their sleep, and even to deceive and abuse trust in order to assassinate. He punished some enemies by cutting off their hands and feet, branding their eyes with heated iron, and causing them to lick the dust until they died.

He led battles against unarmed cities. He allowed even women and children to be exposed to danger during nighttime raids. On more than one occasion Muhammad decimated tribes by killing all their men and teenage boys while distributing their women and children as slaves. This is the man that the Quran tells all Muslims to emulate (33.21).

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Once again, my imams dismissed the historical records and traditions, advising me to ignore them. Since these are the very sources that tell us about Muhammad, I cannot selectively ignore the portions I find problematic. When others do, though, my argument in the USA today article still stands: people have to filter the traditions to produce a peaceful Islam. When everyday Muslims investigate the Quran and hadith for themselves, without their imams filtering the traditions, they are confronted with the reality of violent jihad in the very foundations of their faith.

 

 

 

 

 

This is why I don't jump all over everything Doggo says, as much as you would like me to.  Because much of what he says is the same as what Muslim reformers and ex-Muslims have to say.  You frequently advocate the opposite of what Muslim reformers advocate.

 

people have to filter the traditions to produce a peaceful Islam

 

^^^  Is that not what Doggo always says, too? ^^^

You may not like it, you may not like how he presents it, but his view on this is perfectly valid and supported.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Goddess

[DogOnPorch]

50 minutes ago, Goddess said:

...and insisting that we talk instead about what Christians did 500 years ago.

 

Christianity...for all of its many faults...has an awesome core message. It brought peace to the valley...so to speak.

"Go and do thou likewise." ie The Golden Rule.

Even as a staunch atheist...I'm down 100% with that message.

Thou shalt not kill from the OT is another. There is no "but" or "unless" attached to it.

The Quran has no such message. In fact, it says killing is okay under certain conditions. Revenge...for one. Insulting Mohammad or Allah...or causing fitnah...which you've probably heard of...is another.

[DogOnPorch]

7 minutes ago, Goddess said:

For instance, you say the Koran clearly states jihad is internal.

 

Jihad in the Quran is not presented as an internal struggle. 

Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.

https://quran.com/2/216

 

[dialamah]

13 minutes ago, Goddess said:

This Muslim scholar disagrees with you.  And he quotes the actual verses and explains them.

Right, and here are some experts who take the same verses and explain them, agreeing with me.

http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/understanding-islam/legal-rulings/5-jihad-a-misunderstood-concept-from-islam.html?start=9

http://www.iiie.net/18-jihad-explained/

We could play duelling experts all day long.  But only one of us allows for both interpretations as being equally "valid", meaning that people will choose which form of Jihad they'll follow, the violent or the peaceful.  DoP and now you apparerently now seem to want to take the stand that only violent Jihad is "acceptable" for Muslims.

43 minutes ago, Goddess said:

 frequently advocate the opposite of what Muslim reformers advocate.

 

Muslim reformers subscribe to promoting violent jihadism, killing of Jews and unbelievers as the only valid expression of Islam, and that anyone who fails in this is not Muslim?   I don't think so.

I also don't believe reformers support comments implying or outright stating that if a Muslim man injures or kills a woman, its "because they're Muslim men and can't handle women saying no".  Or that if a woman wears an hijab or a niqab, she is an extremist and wants to kill gays and unbelievers.

I think reformers want Muslims and non-Muslims alike to promote peaceful and progressive teachings and behaviors and to condemn violent and backward ones.  I, personally, am more than happy to condemn patriarchal culture prevalent in Muslim countries and supported by the Koran, or human rights violations carried out by governments claiming to be Islamic.  This does not mean condemning all Muslim men and women because of news stories about Muslim criminals or murderers.  

[DogOnPorch]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Right, and here are some experts who take the same verses and explain them, agreeing with me.

-------

Muslim reformers subscribe to promoting violent jihadism, killing of Jews and unbelievers as the only valid expression of Islam, and that anyone who fails in this is not Muslim?   I don't think so.

 

There are no 'experts' on Islam. Many self proclaimed experts, however. I'm no expert...but unlike yourself, I've read the Quran.

-----

The Quran says exactly what it says. Not something else. Muslims (and non-Muslims, too) only have the Quran (written by Allah...GOD)...and the Hadiths (written by humans)...to understand Islam with...and it was meant to be a personal relationship with no need for priests.

So your experts amount to a hill of beans to me...

[Goddess]

13 minutes ago, dialamah said:

now you apparerently now seem to want to take the stand that only violent Jihad is "acceptable" for Muslims.

**sigh**  You are so busy searching for indications of Islamophobia or something not worded exactly how you think it should be that you miss the point almost 100% of the time.

No one is saying that violent jihad is "acceptable" for Muslims. 

But I think you know that and are just mud-slinging again, as usual.

 

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Goddess said:

 

No one is saying that violent jihad is "acceptable" for Muslims. 

 

 

 

Except the Quran itself. It actually scolds the believer if he stays at home while others do the fighting.

[DogOnPorch]

And I know you appreciate Quran references...

Not equal are those believers remaining [at home] - other than the disabled - and the mujahideen, [who strive and fight] in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred the mujahideen through their wealth and their lives over those who remain [behind], by degrees. And to both Allah has promised the best [reward]. But Allah has preferred the mujahideen over those who remain [behind] with a great reward -

Degrees [of high position] from Him and forgiveness and mercy. And Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

---Quran 4:95-96

https://quran.com/4/95-96

 

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by DogOnPorch

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

**sigh**  You are so busy searching for indications of Islamophobia or something not worded exactly how you think it should be that you miss the point almost 100% of the time.

No one is saying that violent jihad is "acceptable" for Muslims. 

But I think you know that and are just mud-slinging again, as usual.

 

Conversations I had with DoP, the poster you are so in tune with, before you ever arrived on this forum went essentially like this:

DoP:  Muslims must kill Jews/unbelievers because it says so in the Koran, verse blah blah.

Me:  Yes, but it also says not to kill Jews/unbelievers, cause verse blah blah.

DoP:  That verse doesn't count, only the verse instructing Muslims to kill Jews/unbelievers counts.

Me: What about all the Muslims who don't kill Jews/unbelievers because of verse blah blah?

DoP:  They aren't really Muslims.  Real Muslims kill Jews/unbelievers or they are waiting to.

So what "point" exactly am I missing here, Goddess?  That all Muslims are incipient killers of non-Muslims?  Is that the message of the Muslim reformers you claim I am ignoring?  

I don't know how many different times that basic conversation played out till I relegated DoP to the stupid pile.  With Taxme, with Altai, with Betsy - all holding extreme beliefs barely connected to reality.   You recognize that in Altai and Betsy for sure, maybe Taxme, I dunno.  But not in DoP.  Why is that?

[Goddess]

18 minutes ago, dialamah said:

With Taxme, with Altai, with Betsy - all holding extreme beliefs barely connected to reality.   You recognize that in Altai and Betsy for sure, maybe Taxme, I dunno.  But not in DoP.  Why is that?

You answered your own question:

18 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Conversations I had with DoP, the poster you are so in tune with, before you ever arrived on this forum went essentially like this:

Whatever your issue is with the Dog, leave me out of it.

[DogOnPorch]

42 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Conversations I had with DoP, the poster you are so in tune with, before you ever arrived on this forum went essentially like this:

DoP:  Muslims must kill Jews/unbelievers because it says so in the Koran, verse blah blah.

Me:  Yes, but it also says not to kill Jews/unbelievers, cause verse blah blah.

DoP:  That verse doesn't count, only the verse instructing Muslims to kill Jews/unbelievers counts.

Me: What about all the Muslims who don't kill Jews/unbelievers because of verse blah blah?

DoP:  They aren't really Muslims.  Real Muslims kill Jews/unbelievers or they are waiting to.

So what "point" exactly am I missing here, Goddess?  That all Muslims are incipient killers of non-Muslims?  Is that the message of the Muslim reformers you claim I am ignoring?  

I don't know how many different times that basic conversation played out till I relegated DoP to the stupid pile.  With Taxme, with Altai, with Betsy - all holding extreme beliefs barely connected to reality.   You recognize that in Altai and Betsy for sure, maybe Taxme, I dunno.  But not in DoP.  Why is that?

 

Abrogation is real and I didn't invent it.

Before Islam became...errr...popular...Big Mo had trouble getting any followers and was very sucky-uppy to the Jews of Arabia...imagine...Jews in Arabia. Anyways...he had his early followers pray towards Jerusalem and such in order to 'woo the Jews' into declaring him the next and final Moses. The Jews of Arabia said...thanks...but no thanks. That when the whole Jews are cursed by Allah etc started and suddenly the Jews were the vilest of people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

You can pretend otherwise, if you so desire. It won't change reality.

[DogOnPorch]

30 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You answered your own question:

Whatever your issue is with the Dog, leave me out of it.

 

I rather enjoy your taste in music and your posts.

[eyeball]

9 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

What does the Quran say about Unbelievers?

 

8 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Notice that dialamah is afraid to quote the Quran re: my questions.

I wonder why? It's the Religion of Peace!

 

8 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Just to be clear: the Quran claims the Jews are the vilest of creatures and cursed by Allah...while Unbelievers are to be fought (physically) until all religion (including dirty atheists) are for Allah.

 

8 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

You're here to defend Islam by not answering questions.

I walked past and talked to several Muslims in the last week and not one of them rose up to smite me - not a single one of them followed orders you say every one of them is given by God to carry out.  How do you explain that?

[dialamah]

5 hours ago, Goddess said:

You answered your own question:

Whatever your issue is with the Dog, leave me out of it.

I look forward to you chastising  DoP when he posts "Muslims are commanded by Allah to kill unbelievers, and if they don't believe that, they are not real Muslims".  Because you've said you don't mean "all" Muslims when you make your disparaging remarks about them, so surely you'll want to correct your friend and buddy when he says "all" Muslims are murderers, practicing or not.

[DogOnPorch]

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

I look forward to you chastising  DoP when he posts "Muslims are commanded by Allah to kill unbelievers, and if they don't believe that, they are not real Muslims".  Because you've said you don't mean "all" Muslims when you make your disparaging remarks about them, so surely you'll want to correct your friend and buddy when he says "all" Muslims are murderers, practicing or not.

 

I didn't say any such thing. You're quite the liar when cornered.

YOUR Quran, however, commands Muslims to fight the Unbeliever until religion, all of it, if for Allah.

And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

https://quran.com/8/39

And just so dialamah knows...because she does not seem to: I did not write your Quran. Your deity, Allah, did..."God".

[DogOnPorch]

Ultimately, folks like dialamah support Islam unquestioningly without ever having read the Quran or Hadiths.

 

[dialamah]

4 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

1.  I didn't say any such thing.

2.  You're quite the liar when cornered.

3.  YOUR Quran, however, commands Muslims to fight the Unbeliever until religion, all of it, if for Allah.

And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

https://quran.com/8/39

4.  And just so dialamah knows...because she does not seem to: I did not write your Quran. Your deity, Allah, did..."God".

1. Yeah, you do.  When it's been pointed out that Muslims aren't actually out killing their unbelievering neighbours wholesale, you say "They aren't really Muslims" or that "They haven't got the call yet" and that "taqqiya" means they are lying if they say they think murder is wrong. 

2.  I notice you haven't explained why Eyeball is still posting, even though he's interacted with Muslims recently.   Worried that your usual answer will demonstrate who really is cornered and lying?

3 and 4.  Just too stupid to respond to.

You have a sweet day, DoP.  Hope the bogeyman doesn't get you.

[DogOnPorch]

11 minutes ago, dialamah said:

1. Yeah, you do.  When it's been pointed out that Muslims aren't actually out killing their unbelievering neighbours wholesale, you say "They aren't really Muslims" or that "They haven't got the call yet" and that "taqqiya" means they are lying if they say they think murder is wrong. 

2.  I notice you haven't explained why Eyeball is still posting, even though he's interacted with Muslims recently.   Worried that your usual answer will demonstrate who really is cornered and lying?

3 and 4.  Just too stupid to respond to.

You have a sweet day, DoP.  Hope the bogeyman doesn't get you.

 

Nope...did not. You're misquoting at best...lying at worst.

You're free to pretend that I'm the problem rather than your global death cult of Islam which you defend against all critics.

[Goddess]

12 hours ago, dialamah said:

I look forward to you chastising  DoP

You're not the boss of me and you're not this forum's police, who gets to tell others when and what they post.  It's a discussion forum, everyone is allowed to post their thoughts and I am not obligated to you to attack the posters you want me to, nor am I obligated to respond to every post I don't completely agree with.  I am not going to re-write people's posts just to find something nit-picky to argue about like you do.

[DogOnPorch]

9 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You're not the boss of me and you're not this forum's police, who gets to tell others when and what they post.  It's a discussion forum, everyone is allowed to post their thoughts and I am not obligated to you to attack the posters you want me to, nor am I obligated to respond to every post I don't completely agree with.  I am not going to re-write people's posts just to find something nit-picky to argue about like you do.

 

My source is the Quran/Hadiths...and only those. Islam's own words...which I'm obliged to take seriously since they're clearly against non-Muslims up to the point of killing.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

My source is the Quran/Hadiths...and only those. Islam's own words...which I'm obliged to take seriously since they're clearly against non-Muslims up to the point of killing.

And yet here I stand...unscathed...how do you explain that?  I've encountered dozens and dozens of Muslims, a couple could have slit my throat while I was sleeping.  Not a scratch.

Why DOP?  

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, eyeball said:

And yet here I stand...unscathed...how do you explain that?  I've encountered dozens and dozens of Muslims, a couple could have slit my throat while I was sleeping.  Not a scratch.

Why DOP?  

 

You confuse Muslims with Islam...often.

 

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

You confuse Muslims with Islam...often.

 

Oh I'm quite certain many of them were Islamic.

And not so much as a teeny tine scratch.

How do you explain it? You often do, why not now?  Is is because you're full of shit or something?