Online Voting in Canada

[eyeball]

It all seems so horse and buggy era though doesn't it? I mean, snail-elections worked when issues unfolded at a snail's pace but nowadays it just doesn't cut it given the pace of things.

It's not so much a case of our democracy being broken as simply being inadequate for the demands of the space age.

[Boges]

I also don't trust government to get it right. We've just had the CRA, in the midst of tax season shut down for almost a week.

Private companies aren't shutting down for a week.

I don't trust online security to decide elections.

[waldo]

I remember an NDP leadership convention in recent years that had online voting and there was a huge delay because they were hacked.

No Thanks. If you can't bother to get up an visit a polling both, then I'd prefer you don't vote.

it wasn't hacked... it was a denial of service (DOS) attempt that simply caused delays. It was a distributed attack in that it was perpetrated against the NDP website rather than the actual site where the e-voting system resided... the point being it reflected upon an "architecture" gap, one that wouldn't exist... or shouldn't exist... within a properly certified/tested deployment.

[waldo]

I also don't trust government to get it right. We've just had the CRA, in the midst of tax season shut down for almost a week.

Private companies aren't shutting down for a week.

I don't trust online security to decide elections.

the e-voting system is hosted, typically, on the servers of the private companies you appear to favour. A part of gaining trust relies upon small-scale trials showing the integrity of the process/results. Apparently, Harper Conservatives are moving to ensure those intended Election Canada trials never see the 'light of day'. Apparently, presumptions (or the reality) of increasing the rate of voter participation is of great concern to Harper Conservatives.

[eyeball]

I also don't trust government to get it right. We've just had the CRA, in the midst of tax season shut down for almost a week.

I don't trust online security to decide elections.

I simply don't trust...I don't even know how to anymore. What's my basis for it even supposed to be?

Private companies aren't shutting down for a week.

They're probably taking advantage of all the confusion and misdirection.

[Boges]

So how would Online Voting work? Would we get a user name and password snail mailed to us from EC? I can see theft being a possibility right there.

Showing up to a voting station is already not terribly taxing to people. I just don't see how online voting actually improves our democracy.

[eyeball]

So how would Online Voting work? Would we get a user name and password snail mailed to us from EC? I can see theft being a possibility right there.

Showing up to a voting station is already not terribly taxing to people. I just don't see how online voting actually improves our democracy.

I don't see how either if all we're doing is using it for is to the same old same old.

Okay, so lets just stick with old fashioned paper and pencil but we vote on a range of issues and questions rather than leaving it up to some politician that virtually no one (other than a partisan hack) has any good reason to trust.

[Boges]

I don't see how either if all we're doing is using it for is to the same old same old.

Okay, so lets just stick with old fashioned paper and pencil but we vote on a range of issues and questions rather than leaving it up to some politician that virtually no one (other than a partisan hack) has any good reason to trust.

Yeah, if Online voting becomes commonplace, then why not just do away with politicians? You elect a government but all laws are passed due to online plebiscite.

[TimG]

So how would Online Voting work? Would we get a user name and password snail mailed to us from EC? I can see theft being a possibility right there.

Estonia requires that each voter have an ID card with a PIN (that must be set in person). Plus they require a smart card reader on an internet connected PC (pretty onerous requirements for something that is supposed to make things easier). I also suspect they have a much more restricted system for managing the paper votes since they can detect duplicate votes (i.e. I doubt anyone is allowed to "vouch" in Estonia).

[Boges]

ID Card? What about Vouching! Can't stop the Vouching!

I wonder how online vouching would work.

[waldo]

So how would Online Voting work? Would we get a user name and password snail mailed to us from EC? I can see theft being a possibility right there.

Showing up to a voting station is already not terribly taxing to people. I just don't see how online voting actually improves our democracy.

you're so against e-voting... but you, apparently, have no inclination to pursue understanding its mechanics and underlying framework... a big part of which hasn't even been touched upon within this thread; i.e., the underlying legal framework required to support the process. There have been a few links provided in earlier posts that should be able to give you insight into possible working options... there are several in development/trial/deployment.

if you recognize that e-voting may increase voter participation... or even stops/reduces a drop in further voter participation, would you accept that as an improvement? If costs related to elections could be shown to reduce, would you accept that as an improvement?

your "not terribly taxing" is simply your perception. I've personally felt the brunt of long lines snaking through outside sidewalks leading through a church stairwell/basement... only to watch a well-intended, smallish complement of 'blue-hairs' (as someone described them in an earlier post) take an inordinate time processing each and every voter. Yes, it was an anomoly, but I personally spent over 2 hours translating that vote attempt. I've also had multiple occasions to actually forfeit voting in favour of forced last-minute work commitments. With assurances in the process/results, who wouldn't want to avail themselves of an opportunity to vote online?

[eyeball]

Yeah, if Online voting becomes commonplace, then why not just do away with politicians? You elect a government but all laws are passed due to online plebiscite.

No, paper works for me. If going online causes people to have chest pains and diarrhea who am I to force them to feel so bad?

[waldo]

Estonia requires that each voter have an ID card with a PIN (that must be set in person). Plus they require a smart card reader on an internet connected PC (pretty onerous requirements for something that is supposed to make things easier).

no... you're incorrect; as posted previously:

e.g. Internet Voting in Estonia

• Brief description of the I-voting system
• I-voting principles
• Different ways to identify a person and to give digital signature while I-voting

  - I-voting by means of ID card

  - I-voting by means of digital ID

  - I-voting by means of mobile-ID

• Verification of I-votes

[Moonlight Graham]

And how do we make our children and community's safe from voter-fraud by snail-mail?

haha good question!

[Boges]

you're so against e-voting... but you, apparently, have no inclination to pursue understanding its mechanics and underlying framework... a big part of which hasn't even been touched upon within this thread; i.e., the underlying legal framework required to support the process. There have been a few links provided in earlier posts that should be able to give you insight into possible working options... there are several in development/trial/deployment.

if you recognize that e-voting may increase voter participation... or even stops/reduces a drop in further voter participation, would you accept that as an improvement? If costs related to elections could be shown to reduce, would you accept that as an improvement?

your "not terribly taxing" is simply your perception. I've personally felt the brunt of long lines snaking through outside sidewalks leading through a church stairwell/basement... only to watch a well-intended, smallish complement of 'blue-hairs' (as someone described them in an earlier post) take an inordinate time processing each and every voter. Yes, it was an anomoly, but I personally spent over 2 hours translating that vote attempt. I've also had multiple occasions to actually forfeit voting in favour of forced last-minute work commitments. With assurances in the process/results, who wouldn't want to avail themselves of an opportunity to vote online?

I suspect declining voter participation caused by more and more people feeling cynical about the process and the options and not that voting is that hard.

If your experience is that there are long lines then doesn't that indicate that participation is actually rather high. There are also way people can participate in absentee voting so you don't have to endure the the polling station.

[Michael Hardner]

Yeah, if Online voting becomes commonplace, then why not just do away with politicians? You elect a government but all laws are passed due to online plebiscite.

The approach might be as so:

Poll 1) How many taxes would you like to pay as a percentage ?

Calculate the results

Poll 2) What % would you like to allocate to defense, transfer payments etc. etc. ? (Show a graph of current levels)

[waldo]

I wonder how online vouching would work.

why... your, for example, "PIN / ID Card" would 'vouch' for who you are... and if you didn't have one/those, you wouldn't be availing yourself of the opportunity.

[Boges]

Of course it was a light hearted attempt to combine this issue and the furor over the Fair Election Act.

But an online voting system would require ID and proof of citizenship, so vouching would have to be removed anyway. Unless of course we still go forward with polling station for the one's or two's of people that don't have access to internet.

[waldo]

I suspect declining voter participation caused by more and more people feeling cynical about the process and the options and not that voting is that hard.

If your experience is that there are long lines then doesn't that indicate that participation is actually rather high. There are also way people can participate in absentee voting so you don't have to endure the the polling station.

you certainly can find no shortage of excuses to keep yourself in the "dark ages"... you shouldn't be so resistant to technology advances.

is your suggested existing high voter participation something like the unreported Harper Conservative "voting fraud" or the unreported Harper Conservative "increasing crime"?

one doesn't typically partake in advance polls because you have a crystal ball that shows you'll be compromised wihin those few hours available to vote (after work).

[Boges]

My position is just that showing up to vote every few years is very little to ask, so I fail to see the need. I personally don't want people voting that care so little about the process that they can't spend 10 minutes to get to a school and vote.

Then again if online voting can replace the whole process of setting up polling stations, therefore, drastically reducing the cost of an election, then perhaps it's a good thing. The high cost of an election is frequently used as a reason NOT to bring down a minority government.

[Wilber]

You would still need physical poling stations. Not everyone is computer literate or even has access to one.

[Shady]

My position is just that showing up to vote every few years is very little to ask, so I fail to see the need. I personally don't want people voting that care so little about the process that they can't spend 10 minutes to get to a school and vote.

Then again if online voting can replace the whole process of setting up polling stations, therefore, drastically reducing the cost of an election, then perhaps it's a good thing. The high cost of an election is frequently used as a reason NOT to bring down a minority government.

I completely agree. I'm also against online voting. If somebody can't put a little effort into voting, then I don't want them too. It's just going to attract more low information voters.

[Michael Hardner]

I completely agree. I'm also against online voting. If somebody can't put a little effort into voting, then I don't want them too. It's just going to attract more low information voters.

Absolutely. And this should be something that motivates people on either side of the political divide. As we have seen on MLW, low information is an attribute of all political perspectives.

[eyeball]

The high cost of an election is frequently used as a reason NOT to bring down a minority government.

It's also used as an excuse against holding plebiscites.

[TimG]

Then again if online voting can replace the whole process of setting up polling stations, therefore, drastically reducing the cost of an election, then perhaps it's a good thing. The high cost of an election is frequently used as a reason NOT to bring down a minority government.

The biggest irony is to make online voting viable there would have to be a system of identity verification that would be much stricter than we have now or even under the Fair Elections Act. This means it would be unlikely to to bring in new voters and would simply capture the votes of people that would go to the polls if they had to.

I was rolling of the floor laughing at the hoops Estonians seem to be willing to jump though so they can vote online because they would never fly here. Yet people through these examples out as if they have some relevance to Canada.

Edited April 14, 2014 by TimG