Online Voting in Canada

[WestCoastRunner]

I'm torn on this issue because I generally feel that online systems are still too vulnerable to hackery, but I am also traditionally allied with the "you people" referenced above.

We certainly need a secure system in place before a rollout of an online voting system. That goes without saying.

"You people", gotta love it.

[TimG]

I don't believe that you can't have both.

You can believe whatever you want but the facts are that the countries which do allow e-voting have very strict ID requirements. If you want an e-voting system without such requirements then I am opposed because I do not believe it would be secure.

[Mighty AC]

Why would the ID requirements to obtain an e-voting ID have to be different than proof of identity required to vote in person?

[WestCoastRunner]

I personally don't want people voting that care so little about the process that they can't spend 10 minutes to get to a school and vote.

Posters throw out 10 minutes or 30 seconds to go and vote at a polling station. It clearly takes much more time and effort than that. What if you have children, you need to get a sitter. What if you have a demanding job that requires travel, overtime. It's ridiculous to throw out these short span of times to vote at a polling station.

[TimG]

Why would the ID requirements to obtain an e-voting ID have to be different than proof of identity required to vote in person?

The current system is basically 'bring whatever you got'. e-voting would require a digital key which none of the existing IDs have. You could incorporate the ID into your passport but that requires that you get a passport. The bottom line is new - e-voting specific ID would have to be issued plus all of the infrastructure to verify and replace lost IDs. It is not a trivial task and probably is not worth it.

[WestCoastRunner]

The bottom line is new - e-voting specific ID would have to be issued plus all of the infrastructure to verify and replace lost IDs. It is not a trivial task and probably is not worth it.

Tim, I understand that you are a software developer for security but I certainly wouldn't leave it up to you to decide that it wouldn't be worth it. We all need to keep an open mind and see how these online trials end up.

[Mighty AC]

The current system is basically 'bring whatever you got'. e-voting would require a digital key which none of the existing IDs have. You could incorporate the ID into your passport but that requires that you get a passport. The bottom line is new - e-voting specific ID would have to be issued plus all of the infrastructure to verify and replace lost IDs. It is not a trivial task and probably is not worth it.

Bring whatever you got could still fly if voters turned up in person at a Service Canada office to obtain a voter id. The CRA manages to issue e-file IDs. We could probably piggy back on their infrastructure. Edited April 15, 2014 by Mighty AC

[WestCoastRunner]

You don't even need to show up in person. You can obtain an e-file ID online and over the phone.

[ReeferMadness]

If people can't be bothered to take a half hour to get to a poll once every 4 years, what does that say about democracy?

[eyeball]

It doesn't have a lot to offer.

[waldo]

If people can't be bothered to take a half hour to get to a poll once every 4 years, what does that say about democracy?

does a paper ballot & a stubby pencil define democratic engagement? Is a physical church basement or school gymnasium more legitimate than a virtual polling station and a secure e-voting process? Many e-voting usage examples beyond "mere convenience" have been mentioned in previous posts... but even if one relegated e-voting to being nothing more than an avenue of convenience, what does improving ease and accessibility of the electoral process... potentially opening it up to a wider demographic, say about democracy?

[Bryan]

If people can't be bothered to take a half hour to get to a poll once every 4 years, what does that say about democracy?

It says that democracy is not nearly as sacrosanct as people try to pretend it is. MOST people will bitch about what they get, but won't actually do anything about it.

[TimG]

Bring whatever you got could still fly if voters turned up in person at a Service Canada office to obtain a voter id.

Yep - they would have to turn up at a government office to get ID yet making people show up at a government office to get IDs is too much of a burden for critics of the Fair Voting Act. This is why I say such a requirement would be too onerous to get disengaged voters to vote - especially since this ID would serve no purpose other than voting.

The CRA manages to issue e-file IDs. We could probably piggy back on their infrastructure.

And the efile ids are regularly used by other people (spouse, accountant, etc) to file taxes on behalf the person the ID belongs to. This is exactly the kind of thing that would have to be prevented in an e-voting system which means secret PIN numbers on smart cards. If you forget your PIN it would another trip to the government office with your ID to change it. If you lose your card it is another trip to the government office.

You could try to argue that the government should just had out evoting IDs to anyone who asks for them and simply trust that people would not lie (after all the government can't prove that people lying to get evoting IDs is a big problem therefore it can't justify trying to prevent it). But such as system would be insecure from my POV and it proves that advocates of evoting are willing to compromise the security of the system just so they can avoid getting off their butts and show up at a polling station.

Edited April 15, 2014 by TimG

[Boges]

I think it's clear that if we were to go the online voting route and for it to be secure, potential voters will have to register and prove their citizenship to obtain an ID and Password. Which means it will require more homework than showing up at a school with a Cable Bill and a Driver's License.

AND I would oppose the infrastructure of online voting to be created while at the same time still spending $300 million to do it the old way. One or the other, not both.

[Michael Hardner]

AND I would oppose the infrastructure of online voting to be created while at the same time still spending $300 million to do it the old way. One or the other, not both.

I don't think that that is politically tenable. You won't be able to force people to go online, and you can be sure that the first stab at this will be replete with failures of some kind so they will have to have two parallel systems in place if it happens soon.

[Mighty AC]

We would definitely have parallel systems, but the number of polling stations would steadily decrease each year. In fact, polling stations could be used to register for e-voting IDs.

[Boges]

In fact, polling stations could be used to register for e-voting IDs.

Holy Redundancy Batman! You're already there, just vote already.

It's interesting how in both scenario's we have to pander to millennials that can't be bothered to leave their parents basements to vote or blue hairs that don't or won't use the internet.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Boges

[Mighty AC]

The voting stations will have to exist in parallel as we transition towards a modern replacement. Registering for an e-system online will require forms of ID that not all voters possess. These voters can turn up in person to vote, but also obtain their e-vote ID for future use. Physical polling stations could then be reduced to just a handful as people vote online or by phone. Going forward elections would be less costly and counts more accurate.

[Boges]

The voting stations will have to exist in parallel as we transition towards a modern replacement. Registering for an e-system online will require forms of ID that not all voters possess. These voters can turn up in person to vote, but also obtain their e-vote ID for future use. Physical polling stations could then be reduced to just a handful as people vote online or by phone. Going forward elections would be less costly and counts more accurate.

As I mentioned earlier, once you've registered you get letters from EC during election campaigns telling you were your voting station will be, this infrastructure could easily be changed to sending people personalized ID and Passwords.

Of course the irony of snail mailing online permissions is not lost on me.

Outside of a campaign, I suppose going to a Government Services kiosk could allow people to register, it's not like they're busy or anything.

[TimG]

These voters can turn up in person to vote, but also obtain their e-vote ID for future use.

It is unreasonable to assume that a polling station would have the facilities required to track and issue e-voting IDs (at a minimum a camera or other biometric scanner is required).

[eyeball]

But such as system would be insecure from my POV and it proves that advocates of evoting are willing to compromise the security of the system just so they can avoid getting off their butts and show up at a polling station.

No, I'm advocating it so Canadians can vote more often and on a whole range of things, but I'm betting dollars to donuts the usual suspects around here would like that even less because of their ideological insecurity.

[Smallc]

Because direct democracy has proven to be so successful.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Smallc

[eyeball]

Chicken heart.

[GostHacked]

No, I'm advocating it so Canadians can vote more often and on a whole range of things, but I'm betting dollars to donuts the usual suspects around here would like that even less because of their ideological insecurity.

Technological insecurity. Paper ballots can be tampered with, digital ballots are even easier to tamper with. Online voting is a bad idea.

[eyeball]

So Canadian voters are even less trustworthy than the liars they elect. Priceless.