Online Voting in Canada

[Moonlight Graham]

Again, this is missing the point. Society is in the digital era/age, whatever you want to call it. We can do everything online now, buying, filing income tax returns, paying bills, finding a mate, it goes on and on. Why on earth can we not vote online! It is time to move forward.

With online voting can you think of any possible way to prevent fraud, such as me from letting my spouse or my friend etc. use my vote on my behalf online? Figure that out then maybe i'll explore the idea further.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Moonlight Graham

[eyeball]

With online voting can you think of any possible way to prevent fraud, such as me from letting my spouse or my friend etc. use my vote on my behalf online? Figure that out then maybe i'll explore the idea further.

Biometrics?

I still think most of the problems in the area of voting, like most problems associated with how we govern ourselves, would just fade away if it was harder for politicians to lie and do so much of what they do in secret.

[TimG]

With online voting can you think of any possible way to prevent fraud, such as me from letting my spouse or my friend etc. use my vote on my behalf online? Figure that out then maybe i'll explore the idea further.

Call your bank and ask them how they prevent people from stealing identities if your bank card is stolen. They will tell you that they depend on you reporting the stolen bank card ASAP. If you don't then it is quite possible for someone with knowledge of your banking (perhaps access to statement) to change your password and get into your account.

IOW - the security of the online banking system depends on individuals being motivated to prevent fraud against themselves. This is not an unreasonable expectation when it comes to banking but it is a completely unreasonable expectation for voting where the government would be trying to reach voters who have already indicated they are lazy and don't care about voting. A much more cumbersome process would be required.

To make matters worse - if your vote is "stolen" there would be no way to reverse it as long as a system ensures secret ballot. i.e. people could go to vote and find out that someone has voted for them and they would have no way to know who.

Edited April 13, 2014 by TimG

[Moonlight Graham]

Biometrics?

I still think most of the problems in the area of voting, like most problems associated with how we govern ourselves, would just fade away if it was harder for politicians to lie and do so much of what they do in secret.

How do you do biometrics from home? Maybe a webcam?

[Moonlight Graham]

Call your bank and ask them how they prevent people from stealing identities if your bank card is stolen. They will tell you that they depend on you reporting the stolen bank card ASAP. If you don't then it is quite possible for someone with knowledge of your banking (perhaps access to statement) to change your password and get into your account.

IOW - the security of the online banking system depends on individuals being motivated to prevent fraud against themselves. This is not an unreasonable expectation when it comes to banking but it is a completely unreasonable expectation for voting where the government would be trying to reach voters who have already indicated they are lazy and don't care about voting. A much more cumbersome process would be required.

Agreed.

[TimG]

Biometrics?

Biometrics require specialized hardware and trusted IT infrastructure. Neither is practical for online voting.

[Moonlight Graham]

IOW - the security of the online banking system depends on individuals being motivated to prevent fraud against themselves. This is not an unreasonable expectation when it comes to banking but it is a completely unreasonable expectation for voting where the government would be trying to reach voters who have already indicated they are lazy and don't care about voting. A much more cumbersome process would be required.

I'll change my statement from earlier in the thread a bit, I don't think the reason young people don't vote is because they're necessarily lazy, they just aren't as engaged politically. I think you naturally tend to be more engaged politically when you get older and start paying more taxes, start having kids and putting them in the education system, using the healthcare system more etc.

[TimG]

I'll change my statement from earlier in the thread a bit, I don't think the reason young people don't vote is because they're necessarily lazy, they just aren't as engaged politically. I think you naturally tend to be more engaged politically when you get older and start paying more taxes, start having kids and putting them in the education system, using the healthcare system more etc.

I will agree with that. But it does not change the fact that the government cannot depend on voters to prevent fraudulent use of their vote because disengaged voters have no incentive to do so. This makes the problem much more intractable than something like online banking. At a minimum it means that a formal request for online voting will have to be submitted for each election and this request will require that identity documents be presented and verified. Edited April 13, 2014 by TimG

[WestCoastRunner]

An interesting article here discusses internet voting in a couple of European countries. It also says that trials are underway in Canada. I didn't know that.

Another article here discusses a firm 'Scytl' which offers software for online voting. Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen invested $40 million in this company.

[TimG]

discusses internet voting in a couple of European countries.

The security of the system depends on the process used to issue these ID cards. The article does not explain how this is done.

[waldo]

Another article here discusses a firm 'Scytl' which offers software for online voting. Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen invested $40 million in this company.

I was just about to put a like article forward... instead, here's an IDC white paper doc (albeit sponsored by the same Scytl company):

IDC-Scytl-Election-Modernization-Roadmaps

[-TSS-]

What exactly is the problem online voting would solve?

[WestCoastRunner]

The security of the system depends on the process used to issue these ID cards. The article does not explain how this is done.

I didn't put the articles out there to discuss the issue of ID cards. They are articles of information for anyone who wishes to read them.

[On Guard for Thee]

Ok - how many people here would vote online but do not vote now ?

I for one would vote online and had it been available in years gone by I would not have missed a number of votes due to travel out of Canada. Yes I could have arranged to go to advance polls, sometimes, other times travel happenned last minute. i.e. the phone rang and the boss said can you get on the plane tomorrow and go to Iran, or somewhere. As I've said here before, I do my banking online and I'll admit, my bank account is darn near as important as my vote and I trust that to the internet.

[waldo]

e.g. Internet Voting in Estonia

• Brief description of the I-voting system
• I-voting principles
• Different ways to identify a person and to give digital signature while I-voting
  - I-voting by means of ID card
  - I-voting by means of digital ID
  - I-voting by means of mobile-ID
• Verification of I-votes

[WestCoastRunner]

I was just about to put a like article forward... instead, here's an IDC white paper doc (albeit sponsored by the same Scytl company):

IDC-Scytl-Election-Modernization-Roadmaps

I found this interesting:

While voters are losing interest in elections or facing difficulties in

exercising their right to vote, governments

are trying to figure out new ways to engage them in the democratic process.

● Making the voting process efficient:

○ Increasing the speed of the vote counting process

○ Minimizing delays in the publication of election results

○ Streamlining post-election audit processes

○ Eliminating duplication of voter registration records

○ Reducing ballot printing and logistics costs

Efficiency is important both for emerging countries that are eager to modernize their election processes (and to conform to democratic election standards set by OSCE, the European Union, and other international institutions) and for developed countries that are under pressure to control government expenditure.

[Big Guy]

I do not believe that voting is a 30 or 40 minute exercise. It involves at least four steps;

The individual must verify that they are on the voters list or initiate the process to be eligible.

The individual must take the time to become familiar with the policies of the individual parties and the local candidates.

The individual must physically move to a place where he/she can cast his/her ballot.

The individual must fill out the ballot properly to clearly record their choice.

This complete process is very time consuming.

The percentage of eligible people who do cast ballot keeps decreasing. There are those who feel that this is not a good thing and is undermining the legitimacy of the result. The suggested solutions to this perceived problem range from mandatory voting ( financial penalties for not voting ) to financial rewards (straight cash payouts, income tax deduction credits) to ease of casting a ballot (on line voting).

There are those who believe that the decrease in voting numbers is a good thing and only those who are interested in politics should be voting thereby reinforcing the validity of the process. They feel that fewer people should be eligible to vote and subsequently support “tightening up” the eligibility process.

I would recommend that those interested in an objective analysis of the process read an excellent opinion by Susan Delacourt; “Shopping For Votes” ( “How politicians choose us and we choose them”) ISBN 978-1-92681-293-9

Whatever method we use to vote, the major political parties will adjust their campaign to their identified and designated targeted voters. I feel that the problem is the “first past the post” system where a political party which targets the right demographics can end up with a majority of the seats while garnering only 35% of the general vote.

Unless we go to some form of PR, I am satisfied with the voting process just like it is now.

[Moonlight Graham]

The individual must physically move to a place where he/she can cast his/her ballot.

Just wanted to clarify that any voter can vote by mail-in Special Ballot, handy for the disabled/sick, the elderly, those living out of their voting district (including out of country) etc.

[Michael Hardner]

I don't care, but how many here would keep showing up to the polls if there were online voting?

You should care. It speaks to the question of whether voters will be 'more likely' to vote by this means. And, the next question I would ask is what kind of voter are we talking about ?

The idea that not enough people are participating in democracy should prompt us to ask why this is happening.

[-TSS-]

I can't be bothered to check through this whole thread and therefore it has most probably already been said what I think of online-voting: There's no way of guaranteeing the secrecy of the vote in online-voting that the secrecy of the vote is the fundamental principle of free elections (Not in Sweden though but that's another story)

[eyeball]

Just wanted to clarify that any voter can vote by mail-in Special Ballot, handy for the disabled/sick, the elderly, those living out of their voting district (including out of country) etc.

And how do we make our children and community's safe from voter-fraud by snail-mail?

[Michael Hardner]

I can't be bothered to check through this whole thread and therefore it has most probably already been said what I think of online-voting: There's no way of guaranteeing the secrecy of the vote in online-voting that the secrecy of the vote is the fundamental principle of free elections (Not in Sweden though but that's another story)

TSS - I did like the question you asked: what problem is this meant to solve.

[waldo]

TSS - I did like the question you asked: what problem is this meant to solve.

towards its prior stated intent to trial e-voting, Elections Canada is on record suggesting it interprets e-voting as a possible avenue to increase voter participation. Some of the early stats for European deployments appear to bear that out... but 'early', as in the penetration of e-voting is still in its relative inception period. I've also seen stats that show a most significant cost savings (on a cost/vote basis) for e-voting.

of course, the Harper Conservative "Fair Elections Act" intends to take away all manner of the ability of Elections Canada to pursue all/any avenues to attempt to incentivize increased voter participation... be that e-voting or 'whatever'.

Edited April 14, 2014 by waldo

[eyeball]

Less cost per vote should provide an incentive to increase the number of things we can vote for.

Edited to add; Sorry...I banged my head yesterday and I think that might be the concussion talking.

Edited April 14, 2014 by eyeball

[Boges]

I remember an NDP leadership convention in recent years that had online voting and there was a huge delay because they were hacked.

No Thanks. If you can't bother to get up an visit a polling both, then I'd prefer you don't vote.