Is Gender Irrelevant?

[TimG]

Psychologists recognize that children can be transgendered. I'm not sure what else you need to know about that.

I am not sure what your point is. Psychologists are willing to jump on fads like any other professional and it is ridiculously easy for psychologists to create labels for anything that they want because there is no way to objectively measure the merit of their claims. Moreover, psychologists are a very broad group and I am sure there are more than a few that share my skepticism.

[TimG]

That's how they've always seen themselves; it is who they are as a person.

Human beings always seek to rationalize what they want to believe. We see this process all the time on this forum where partisans defend something that they would have attacked if "their team" had not committed the foul. So it goes without saying that anyone who has convinced themselves that they are transgender will completely believe that they always felt that way. That does not make it true.

The other aspect of humans to keep in mind is the tendency for obsession. This is a characteristic that all great achievers have and they would have never have achieved what they did without it. But obsession can be directed in destructive ways as well leading people to become alcoholics, gamblers, over eaters, et. al. People can also obsession over their appearance. It is not unreasonable to suggest that a biologically unambiguous transgender is simply an addict who has become obsessed with their physical appearance.

Edited June 23, 2014 by TimG

[jacee]

Human beings always seek to rationalize what they want to believe. We see this process all the time on this forum where partisans defend something that they would have attacked if "their team" had not committed the foul. So it goes without saying that anyone who has convinced themselves that they are transgender will completely believe that they always felt that way. That does not make it true.

The other aspect of humans to keep in mind is the tendency for obsession. This is a characteristic that all great achievers have and they would have never have achieved what they did without it. But obsession can be directed in destructive ways as well leading people to become alcoholics, gamblers, over eaters, et. al. People can also obsession over their appearance. It is not unreasonable to suggest that a transgender is simply an addict who has become obsessed with their physical appearance.

So your opinion is that there cannot be any people who feel they are the other gender.

Mhmm ... well thanks for sharing that.

Others may differ.

.

[TimG]

So your opinion is that there cannot be any people who feel they are the other gender.

There are people who are biologically ambiguous. These people have a reason to feel transgender and they can also be easily identified by medical professionals. I am speaking of people who have no medical reason for their feelings. These feelings could simply be the product of a destructive obsession and there is no way to know.

When it comes to adults there is no reason to interfere but with children parents, teachers, etc should not become enablers for destructive obsessions.

Edited June 23, 2014 by TimG

[jacee]

There are people who are biologically ambiguous. These people have a reason to feel transgender and they can also be easily identified by medical professionals. I am speaking of people who have no medical reason for their feelings. These feelings could simply be the product of a destructive obsession and there is no way to know.

You could google it and learn ...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21334362/

During the intrauterine period a testosterone surge masculinizes the fetal brain, whereas the absence of such a surge results in a feminine brain. As sexual differentiation of the brain takes place at a much later stage in development than sexual differentiation of the genitals, these two processes can be influenced independently of each other.

...

There is no evidence that one's postnatal social environment plays a crucial role in gender identity or sexual orientation.

There you go. Physiology matters. You can have a female brain (emotions, cognition, etc) in a male body.

Ya learn something new everyday, eh!

.

[TimG]

There you go. Physiology matters. You can have a female brain (emotions, cognition, etc) in a male body.

WTF is a female brain? I would need to see a lot of literature demonstrating that a "female brain" is a well defined concept and not some arbitrary categorization invented by the author because he wanted his paper to get attention. Edited June 24, 2014 by TimG

[jacee]

WTF is a female brain?

I would need to see a lot of literature demonstrating that a "female brain" is a well defined concept and not some arbitrary categorization invented by the author because he wanted his paper to get attention.

Well then look it up and learn.

eta

I was looking for the W5 Feb 22 episode, but couldn't find it, but ...

When do I get to be a boy?

I was nervous that people would not like me anymore and they would treat me differently, Wren said.

However, after he told his secret, nothing changed in his classroom he said no one has bullied him or called him names.

At all Edmonton Public Schools, there are rules to protect lesbian, gay, transgender, bisexual and queer students the district was the first in western Canada to enact such rules.

With regards to the washroom, he uses the male washroom, Taylor said. Same as the camping trip, he identifies as male so we put him with the male students.

...

"We see this dichotomy, you are either male or female, Dr. Kristopher Wells, from the Institute for Sexual Minority Studies and Services at the U of A said.

This binary is so toxic, and thats what leads to bullying and violence that we see every day in our schools.

Dr. Wells has written a book about transgender students a resource thats been picked up and used by school boards all over the world.

Edited June 24, 2014 by jacee

[Hal 9000]

Kids are sponges. Kids imitate what they see around them. Kids essentially do what they are taught to do. We hear this every day. I've heard all the left wing people saying we don't expose our child to violence (hockey, MMA, video games) because we don't want them to become violent. We don't want them playing with guns. We don't want to drink in front of them or use curse words because we don't want them to pick it up. The left is sure that churches and closed societies can strongly influence young or weak-minded people, yet when I suggest that it can go the other way, you people are outraged.

So, why wouldn't it be fair to assume that this boy could have been taught that being a sweet little girl is what's "normal" for him/her and their family? There is already a sister and a brother wearing dresses, why wouldn't the youngest child assume that dresses are what's supposed to be worn. Mom said this has been going on since the child was 3 (and I would suspect that it's been since birth). If you tell a 3 YO that they're a pretty little girl, by 6 that child will insist that that's what they are. You can brainwash an adult in less than a year, imagine what a parent can create in a toddler over several years.

And...before you mention schools and psychologists, I'll tell you that if you tested that 6YO child, they will undoubtedly insist they are a girl - why wouldn't they, mom's be calling them "sweet little girl for years"? This mom will eventually find a phychologist that agrees with everything mom has told them. Diagnosis of any mental issue is just about finding the right doctor.

Schools....There is not one teacher, principle, school board or low/mid level politician that will say "no" to this woman and this situation, to do so would be career suicide.

I don't give a rats ass what adults do with their bodies, but the more I look into this case, the more I believe that it's all mom's doing.

[Black Dog]

I don't give a rats ass what adults do with their bodies, but the more I look into this case, the more I believe that it's all mom's doing.

Let's say you're right about this. What about all the others?

It is not unreasonable to suggest that a biologically unambiguous transgender is simply an addict who has become obsessed with their physical appearance.

Which suggests that transgenderism is simply about outward appearance. It's not. Such a basic error, yet one you persist on making. It's almost like you've never bothered to take the time to learn about this stuff instead of remaining ensconced in your own prejudices.

[GostHacked]

For the same reason it's best for people to accept their biological height, skin color, chest size, eye size, etc. Once people are adults they are free to undergo surgeries to change these things if they like, but kids should not be encouraged to do so.

This is the right line of thinking here. Let that person make the decision themselves when they are an adult. Who knows, their views of themselves and how they feel about their situation may change. But until that time, the parents are the ones in charge.

Surgery isn't the topic.

Freedom from discrimination for gender identity is the topic.

.

Yes and the gender identity may not match the sex. Would it make sense to say that gender confused/different people end up getting sex changes to make their inner match the outer self?

[GostHacked]

How can you tell?

Do you frisk them for a penis before determining whether to address them as male or female?

Or ... do you just respect them according to their apparent gender identity?

.

[GostHacked]

There is no "inspection". If you see a male you see a male, if you see a female you see a female. It is not the clothing that makes the gender. Women dress in "men's clothing" in professional settings all the time and yet are not mistaken for men, nor should they be. In fact the whole notion of gender specific clothing is discriminatory, as any individual should be allowed to wear whatever clothing they want without being judged.

As a straight male, I'd have a hard time being taken seriously if I showed up to the board member meeting wearing a dress. Every one would be confused about my gender, and my sexuality.

[GostHacked]

I am not sure what your point is. Psychologists are willing to jump on fads like any other professional and it is ridiculously easy for psychologists to create labels for anything that they want because there is no way to objectively measure the merit of their claims. Moreover, psychologists are a very broad group and I am sure there are more than a few that share my skepticism.

The book of Psychiatric issues has more than tripled since the 1980s. They have a drug that will cure anything. I was put on anti-depressants to cure my manic-depressive state. Turns out the real solution was to get out of a crappy relationship. Life got MUCH better.

[jacee]

This is the right line of thinking here. Let that person make the decision themselves when they are an adult. Who knows, their views of themselves and how they feel about their situation may change. But until that time, the parents are the ones in charge.

Yes and the gender identity may not match the sex. Would it make sense to say that gender confused/different people end up getting sex changes to make their inner match the outer self?

Maybe, maybe not.

But the topic is about school policies to accommodate gender identity.

There are people who think surgery is the only solution. In Ahmedinijad's Iran, same sex relations weren't allowed so all homosexual and trans people were forced to have surgery.

I don't think that's a solution except by choice as an adult.

But the topic here is kids:

I do think that kids can be accepting and supporting to transgender kids so they aren't damaged by bullying and ostracism, but I think adults have to make the policies, set the examples and enforce accountability for harassment and discrimination.

I applaud Edmonton and other school districts that are doing so.

.

[GostHacked]

"We see this dichotomy, you are either male or female, Dr. Kristopher Wells, from the Institute for Sexual Minority Studies and Services at the U of A said.

This binary is so toxic, and thats what leads to bullying and violence that we see every day in our schools.

Dr. Wells has written a book about transgender students a resource thats been picked up and used by school boards all over the world.[/i]

This binary thing is what got us to where we are today. Without it, the human race is on the downward spiral. Binary is actually how the universe works. Positive and negative. Male, female. Up, down. Left, right. And on and on.

Binary is not toxic, it is life in general.

And it should be the Institute for GENDER Minority studies. Since it is different from your sex. No other species on the planet has to deal with these kinds of new social constructs that arise all the time. Why are we the only ones confused about all this?

[Hal 9000]

Let's say you're right about this. What about all the others?

Which suggests that transgenderism is simply about outward appearance. It's not. Such a basic error, yet one you persist on making. It's almost like you've never bothered to take the time to learn about this stuff instead of remaining ensconced in your own prejudices.

If "what gender you are" doesn't matter, then whats the hurry to start dressing your kids in pretty pink dresses, fairy wings and high heeled shoes? If you really think your pre pubescent child may be transgender, dress them neutral, let them do the activtities they want and for now have them use the washrooms that they have plumbing for. I know boys who are somewhat effeminate (like to help mom in the kitchen, go to girl parties etc). Just because your toddler or young boy slips on moms high heels and puts on sisters eye make-up (which, truth be told, most young boys will do) doesn't mean we should rush to pushing the trans gender agenda.

I'm very close to someone who insisted she was a boy and it went on until her father insisted she wear a bra - why? Well, she was closer to her father than her mother, she idolized her brothers and wanted to do what they did (fishing, working on cars, and peeing outside all seemed very cool to her). She is very much female.

There are many cases where a boy is a little more effeminate that would one would typically expect and the girl is a little more masculine and it usually stems from the parents and most kids will overcome (for lack of a better word) this. We had "sissies and we had tom boys well before this generation and most of them turned out just fine. (forgive the crude terminologies)

Again, I don't discredit some adult who feels transgender, but this child thing really bothers me. I truly feel that Renn's mother has gone way over the line and I think she's quite prepared to go even farther.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Hal 9000

[Hal 9000]

Double post - sorry

Edited June 24, 2014 by Hal 9000

[cybercoma]

This binary thing is what got us to where we are today. Without it, the human race is on the downward spiral. Binary is actually how the universe works. Positive and negative. Male, female. Up, down. Left, right. And on and on.Binary is not toxic, it is life in general.And it should be the Institute for GENDER Minority studies. Since it is different from your sex. No other species on the planet has to deal with these kinds of new social constructs that arise all the time. Why are we the only ones confused about all this?

uh... There was no binary prior to the 18th century. One sex theory was the dominant theory then and existed as early as Galen.

[GostHacked]

uh... There was no binary prior to the 18th century. One sex theory was the dominant theory then and existed as early as Galen.

Yes there was. It is obvious that the one sex theory was completely wrong. As the theory about a flat earth. Binary I would argue means male and female. Two components needed to procreate for species continuation.

There are a few species that can asexually reproduce, but homo-sapiens are not one of them.

Edited June 24, 2014 by GostHacked

[jacee]

uh... There was no binary prior to the 18th century. One sex theory was the dominant theory then and existed as early as Galen.

Women were "mutations"?

[Bonam]

uh... There was no binary prior to the 18th century. One sex theory was the dominant theory then and existed as early as Galen.

Or more likely the wikipedia article you read is sourced entirely from one book (Laqueur) by one dude that was randomly hypothesizing about stuff and is in no way representative of actual attitudes throughout human history. It is well known that men and women were treated very differently in 18th century Europe (and earlier), and that the determination of who was a man and who was a woman was rather unambiguous, and based on biology.

[Hal 9000]

Is there some irony here that all the supporters of this woman speak of "gender neutrality", "not stereotyping", "not forcing labels", "letting people be who they want to be", yet a 3YO who feels different (or maybe just wants to be like his siblings)is immediately labelled (by these same people) as transgendered? C'mon, this is a toddler we're talking about, probably not even completely out of diapers yet. People don't completely agree about gender and even doctors disagree to some extent on what it's all about, but we (society) are quite prepared to let mom with an obvious agenda and a toddler lead us down this road. WoW!

Maybe this kid grows up to be a proud straight man, maybe a proud gay man - but the way it's going, mom won't let either of those happen. I fear this kid will need a lot of therapy later on in life.

[Bonam]

Is there some irony here that all the supporters of this woman speak of "gender neutrality", "not stereotyping", "not forcing labels", "letting people be who they want to be", yet a 3YO who feels different (or maybe just wants to be like his siblings)is immediately labelled (by these same people) as transgendered?

...

Maybe this kid grows up to be a proud straight man, maybe a proud gay man - but the way it's going, mom won't let either of those happen. I fear this kid will need a lot of therapy later on in life.

Indeed.

[Black Dog]

Again, I don't discredit some adult who feels transgender, but this child thing really bothers me.

This particular child or the idea of children being transgendered period?

If you recognize that there are transgendered adults, why is the idea that these things might kick in earlier so hard to believe?

[Bonam]

This particular child or the idea of children being transgendered period?

If you recognize that there are transgendered adults, why is the idea that these things might kick in earlier so hard to believe?

These things might or might not "kick in" earlier, but determining that someone is transgendered based on a young kid dressing up like their siblings or acting a bit effeminate or masculine is ridiculous. The vast majority of kids that do these things are not transgendered, and should not be treated as such lest it cause more issues for them. Trying to make determinations of "gender identity" should at the very least wait until after puberty, when the individuals in questions are more likely to have a better understanding of sex, gender, sexual orientation, and how they feel about such things.