Is Gender Irrelevant?

[cybercoma]

Yes there was. It is obvious that the one sex theory was completely wrong.

It doesn't matter that it was wrong. It's how people understood sex and gender. There was no binary. Women were thought to have the same sex organs as men, but inverted. When science progressed to a better understanding of biological sex, we began attaching different social understanding to what it meant to be male or female. Homosexuality emerged as a named concept. Hegemonic masculinity emerged. Understandings of sexuality changed and became highly regulated in the Victorian era. Whether it was scientifically wrong or not, the way people understood sex was not binary until the 18th century. So your claim that the gender binary got us here and is necessary is incorrect. People didn't understand sex as a binary. Men could be feminine and women masculine without people thinking much of it, since they were considered one and the same along a continuum. This binary understanding emerged as a result of two-sex theory, which is also wrong. People can be born with both or neither sex as well. The way we understand sex then shapes the social relationships between people.

[cybercoma]

Women were "mutations"?

Yes. They were mutated men essentially.

[Hal 9000]

This particular child or the idea of children being transgendered period?

If you recognize that there are transgendered adults, why is the idea that these things might kick in earlier so hard to believe?

The same reason that i'm not gonna LABEL 3YO Johnny a sociopath because he doesn't talk to other kids, or a psychopath because he hits another child with a toy, a future killer because he plays with toy guns or a sex offender because he played "i'll show you mine if you show me yours".

[cybercoma]

Or more likely the wikipedia article you read is sourced entirely from one book (Laqueur) by one dude that was randomly hypothesizing about stuff and is in no way representative of actual attitudes throughout human history. It is well known that men and women were treated very differently in 18th century Europe (and earlier), and that the determination of who was a man and who was a woman was rather unambiguous, and based on biology.

I'm not sourcing this from a Wikipedia article. I'm sourcing this from the writing of Galen and the research I've done on 17th century medicine. I never claimed that there weren't men and women and that people didn't know the difference. That's an argument you're making up. I said that the theory was that there was only one biological sex and that women were the same sex as men, except their genitals had not descended. That was a common medical belief prior to the 18th century. I never said that people didn't know the difference between men and women, but there is plenty of evidence that two-sex theory changed the way people understood sex, gender, and sexuality. It's pretty clear from the timeline that the sex binary resulted in definitions for homosexuality and sexual restrictions in the 18th and 19th centuries that had not existed previously.

[cybercoma]

Maybe this kid grows up to be a proud straight man, maybe a proud gay man - but the way it's going, mom won't let either of those happen. I fear this kid will need a lot of therapy later on in life.

What does this kid's sexuality have to do with gender? It's pretty tough to have a serious conversation when people can't even get on the same page with definitions nor understanding how things work. A person's sexuality is only related to the gender of others, not to their own gender nor their sex.

[cybercoma]

These things might or might not "kick in" earlier, but determining that someone is transgendered based on a young kid dressing up like their siblings or acting a bit effeminate or masculine is ridiculous. The vast majority of kids that do these things are not transgendered, and should not be treated as such lest it cause more issues for them. Trying to make determinations of "gender identity" should at the very least wait until after puberty, when the individuals in questions are more likely to have a better understanding of sex, gender, sexual orientation, and how they feel about such things.

The point is that a boy who acts feminine and likes female things should be allowed to do so without knuckle-dragging neanderthals treating him as less than human, vice versa for girls. Children who are transgendered sometimes grow up to be cisgendered. It doesn't matter. The point is that they should be treated with respect and allowed to be who they are at any age.

[Black Dog]

The same reason that i'm not gonna LABEL 3YO Johnny a sociopath because he doesn't talk to other kids, or a psychopath because he hits another child with a toy, a future killer because he plays with toy guns or a sex offender because he played "i'll show you mine if you show me yours".

Which is what?

These things might or might not "kick in" earlier, but determining that someone is transgendered based on a young kid dressing up like their siblings or acting a bit effeminate or masculine is ridiculous.

Is that a common way of determining such things?

The vast majority of kids that do these things are not transgendered, and should not be treated as such lest it cause more issues for them. Trying to make determinations of "gender identity" should at the very least wait until after puberty, when the individuals in questions are more likely to have a better understanding of sex, gender, sexual orientation, and how they feel about such things.

Kids aren't stupid: they pick up on gender norms and expectations as well as on the pressure to conform to them very early on. It might be common for kids to go through phases where they dabble in gender performances, but not all of them grow out of it. The conversation should be initiated early on and continued, not suspended until some arbitrary point.

[cybercoma]

The same reason that i'm not gonna LABEL 3YO Johnny a sociopath because he doesn't talk to other kids, or a psychopath because he hits another child with a toy, a future killer because he plays with toy guns or a sex offender because he played "i'll show you mine if you show me yours".

So you dismiss the entire field of child psychology? Because there are psychologists that will tell you there are behavioural signs pre-school that can tell you if a child may have certain psychosocial issues. A toddler that is constantly hitting and biting, spitting at people, and breaking things is a clear example. Not all toddlers behave that way. The ones who do are different from the norm in that they are exhibiting destructive behaviours. That doesn't mean they'll be this way for the rest of their life, as there are many developmental stages that they must still go through, but at the time they're certainly exhibiting psychological issues that may need to be addressed.

[Bonam]

I'm not sourcing this from a Wikipedia article. I'm sourcing this from the writing of Galen and the research I've done on 17th century medicine. I never claimed that there weren't men and women and that people didn't know the difference. That's an argument you're making up. I said that the theory was that there was only one biological sex and that women were the same sex as men, except their genitals had not descended. That was a common medical belief prior to the 18th century. I never said that people didn't know the difference between men and women, but there is plenty of evidence that two-sex theory changed the way people understood sex, gender, and sexuality. It's pretty clear from the timeline that the sex binary resulted in definitions for homosexuality and sexual restrictions in the 18th and 19th centuries that had not existed previously.

Just because Galen theorized something, does not mean it was widely held belief, or even that most people thought about such things. To the typical person living in the 18th century, there were men and there were women, and that's all there was to it. As for definitions of homosexuality, come on dude, these things are engrained in all kinds of religions and writings since far before the 18th century, so clearly these concepts and definitions existed. By the way, you have provided no citation or sourcing for any of your claims regarding one sex theory or its prevalence.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Bonam

[cybercoma]

Kids aren't stupid: they pick up on gender norms and expectations as well as on the pressure to conform to them very early on. It might be common for kids to go through phases where they dabble in gender performances, but not all of them grow out of it. The conversation should be initiated early on and continued, not suspended until some arbitrary point.

At the end of the day, people should just be respected for who they are regardless of their age.

[Bonam]

The point is that a boy who acts feminine and likes female things should be allowed to do so without knuckle-dragging neanderthals treating him as less than human, vice versa for girls.

Of course. No one is disputing that. In fact if you read through the thread you would see that I have specifically stated that people should be free to wear what they want and act how they want without being judged. What I disagree with is starting to call a 3 year old boy "she" or "xe" because someone thought he acts feminine or likes "female things", or starting to tell this boy that he might actually be a girl, when very likely that is not the case.

Children who are transgendered sometimes grow up to be cisgendered. It doesn't matter. The point is that they should be treated with respect and allowed to be who they are at any age.

Everyone should be treated respectfully at all ages, but adults should not push their views of gender identity onto children too young to understand such things.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Bonam

[Hal 9000]

What does this kid's sexuality have to do with gender? It's pretty tough to have a serious conversation when people can't even get on the same page with definitions nor understanding how things work. A person's sexuality is only related to the gender of others, not to their own gender nor their sex.

Like it or not, this is a boy we're talking about. In the future he could be a straight man, a gay man and yes...he could be a straight woman or a gay woman - but for now he is a boy and the fact that you people are so eager to pigeon hole him as transgender is sick.

[Bonam]

What does this kid's sexuality have to do with gender? It's pretty tough to have a serious conversation when people can't even get on the same page with definitions nor understanding how things work. A person's sexuality is only related to the gender of others, not to their own gender nor their sex.

Gender and sexuality are different things, but to pretend that they are not at all related is plain silliness.

[cybercoma]

Just because Galen theorized something, does not mean it was widely held belief, or even that most people thought about such things. To the typical person living in the 18th century, there were men and there were women, and that's all there was to it. As for definitions of homosexuality, come on dude, these things are engrained in all kinds of religions and writings since far before the 18th century, so clearly these concepts and definitions existed.

You're playing fast and loose with the definitions. When we talked about homosexuality in the 19th century it was defined as a disorder. That understanding of sexuality was new. Everyone knows about the Greeks and their ideas that people had sexual appetites for either men or women, but it was considered the same appetitive forces at work. One-sex theory was described by not only Galen but also Aristotle. The latter looking at women as imperfect men, who couldn't heat up their sperm enough to ejaculate or drop their testes. There is a very clear division between understandings of sex and gender before the Renaissance and those understandings that followed. To deny that is just ignorance of the history of Western sexuality.

The only reason we're down this road is because someone commented that the "binary has always been." It has not. It has only been since the Renaissance and homosexuality was only defined as a "disorder" or a some sort of "problem" at the end of the 19th century.

Regardless, this only tangentially has to do with transgender and gender expression. The point is that non-binary gender expression was actually more accepted throughout history than it is today. Thanks to Victorian morality and the rise of psychology, society throughout the 20th century began viewing gays as immoral and mentally disturbed. That view certainly didn't exist previously. It's the attachment of morality and mental fitness to sexualities that lead us to where we are today. So current understandings of LGBTQ issues were fundamentally shaped by these historical changes.

[Hal 9000]

So you dismiss the entire field of child psychology? Because there are psychologists that will tell you there are behavioural signs pre-school that can tell you if a child may have certain psychosocial issues. A toddler that is constantly hitting and biting, spitting at people, and breaking things is a clear example. Not all toddlers behave that way. The ones who do are different from the norm in that they are exhibiting destructive behaviours. That doesn't mean they'll be this way for the rest of their life, as there are many developmental stages that they must still go through, but at the time they're certainly exhibiting psychological issues that may need to be addressed.

No, you're dismissing the entire field of child psychology. The odds are way greater that this boy is exactly what mom wants, expects or has made him to be.

A toddler that is hitting and biting or exhibiting destructive behaviours is always addressed the same way from the schools, daycares, police and psychologists - "what's going on in the home".

And...your right! It doesn't mean they'll be this way for the rest of their lives just as Renn might not be the way he is for the rest of his life. I'm glad we agree.

[cybercoma]

Everyone should be treated respectfully at all ages, but adults should not push their views of gender identity onto children too young to understand such things.

Who says they're too young to understand these things? Children have a profound understanding of their gender from an early age and psychologists have noted transgendered children showing signs of distress by having a body that they don't identify with. Children understand just fine.

I also find the semantic worries pretty funny considering many languages have a gender neutral third person pronoun, except for English. Our neutral third person pronoun "it" is not a personal pronoun, but one that defines things. Getting bent out of shape because people are trying to bring English in line with other languages that already have pronouns for people that have no connotation of gender is pretty funny.

[cybercoma]

No, you're dismissing the entire field of child psychology. The odds are way greater that this boy is exactly what mom wants, expects or has made him to be.

A toddler that is hitting and biting or exhibiting destructive behaviours is always addressed the same way from the schools, daycares, police and psychologists - "what's going on in the home".

And...your right! It doesn't mean they'll be this way for the rest of their lives just as Renn might not be the way he is for the rest of his life. I'm glad we agree.

How exactly am I dismissing child psychology? Even in the case of a violent child that is showing sociopathic tendencies, they may ask what's going on at home or what the source of these behaviours are, but that doesn't change the fact that the child has a behavioural disorder that needs to be addressed. You said a child can't be a sociopath, when in fact they can, which is why I'm suggesting that you seem to be dismissing the entire field of child psychology. You made it sound like they can't be diagnosed with disorders.

[Bonam]

Who says they're too young to understand these things? Children have a profound understanding of their gender from an early age and psychologists have noted transgendered children showing signs of distress by having a body that they don't identify with. Children understand just fine.

I also find the semantic worries pretty funny considering many languages have a gender neutral third person pronoun, except for English. Our neutral third person pronoun "it" is not a personal pronoun, but one that defines things. Getting bent out of shape because people are trying to bring English in line with other languages that already have pronouns for people that have no connotation of gender is pretty funny.

Which language has a gender neutral third person pronoun that is commonly used to refer to individual people? Of the languages I know or have studied, several have three genders of nouns and pronouns to refer to them by: a masculine, feminine, and neuter, but in none of these languages is the neuter pronoun commonly used to refer to a person, except as an insult, or in the plural case to refer to a group of people of mixed genders.

As for children having a "profound" understanding of their gender from an early age... any cite?

Edited June 24, 2014 by Bonam

[Hal 9000]

How exactly am I dismissing child psychology? Even in the case of a violent child that is showing sociopathic tendencies, they may ask what's going on at home or what the source of these behaviours are, but that doesn't change the fact that the child has a behavioural disorder that needs to be addressed. You said a child can't be a sociopath, when in fact they can, which is why I'm suggesting that you seem to be dismissing the entire field of child psychology. You made it sound like they can't be diagnosed with disorders.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough or maybe you missed my point - whatever! The point is, you can't accurately determine what an adult will become based on what they were/are as a toddler/preschooler. You might get a sense or where a child is heading, but that again comes down to parenting.

As for kids being sociopaths, my point was that a kid showing sociopathic behaviour as a toddler does not mean they'll exhibit that behaviour as an adult. In truth, all kids are sociopaths until a certain age, most kids show violent behaviours until a certain age too - that's kinda my point.

So, to apply labels at such an early age would be reckless and likely inaccurate.

[Bonam]

The only reason we're down this road is because someone commented that the "binary has always been." It has not. It has only been since the Renaissance and homosexuality was only defined as a "disorder" or a some sort of "problem" at the end of the 19th century.

GostHacked was referring not to "theories" of people with no evidence, but to physical reality, and noting the duality that exists in nature, whether in physics (positive and negative charge, up and down spin, matter and anti-matter, north and south magnetic poles, etc) or biology (male and female). This point has only tangential relevance to the topic at hand, but referencing "Galen" is no refutation of the physical reality.

[cybercoma]

Which language has a gender neutral third person pronoun that is commonly used to refer to individual people? Of the languages I know or have studied, several have three genders of nouns and pronouns to refer to them by: a masculine, feminine, and neuter, but in none of these languages is the neuter pronoun commonly used to refer to a person, except as an insult, or in the plural case to refer to a group of people of mixed genders.

As for children having a "profound" understanding of their gender from an early age... any cite?

You're actually asking for a citation that children understand their gender at an early age. You can't observe children yourself and see that they know boys are boys and girls are girls before they even enter school? You can't see that they're treated differently and told what they are from the time they're wrapped in their blue or pink blankets at the hospital? I don't need to cite something that is common knowledge and plainly observable. Edited June 24, 2014 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

GostHacked was referring not to "theories" of people with no evidence, but to physical reality, and noting the duality that exists in nature, whether in physics (positive and negative charge, up and down spin, matter and anti-matter, north and south magnetic poles, etc) or biology (male and female). This point has only tangential relevance to the topic at hand, but referencing "Galen" is no refutation of the physical reality.

The "physical reality" is not binary either, as I already mentioned.

[Bonam]

You're actually asking for a citation that children understand their gender at an early age. You can't observe children yourself and see that they know boys are boys and girls are girls before they even enter school? You can't see that they're treated differently and told what they are from the time they're wrapped in their blue or pink blankets at the hospital? I don't need to cite something that is common knowledge and plainly observable.

As I've said multiple times before, children know their gender and the gender of others because they are told it by parents, siblings, etc, not because of some profound innate understanding. I'm asking for a citation for the ability of a several year old child to conceptualize the idea that despite being told by everyone from birth that they are a boy, despite being addressed as a boy and looking like all the other boys out there, that he actually feels like a girl and identifies more with the female gender (without all this coming directly from the child's parent), or vice versa.

[jacee]

Yes there was. It is obvious that the one sex theory was completely wrong. As the theory about a flat earth. Binary I would argue means male and female. Two components needed to procreate for species continuation.

There are a few species that can asexually reproduce, but homo-sapiens are not one of them.

The early attempt to explain transgender ...

6th Century to 1st Century BC -- In the Greek Hippocratic Corpus(collection of medical texts), physicians propose that both parents secrete male or female "bodies" and that if the father's secretion is female (rather than male) and the mother's is male, the result would either be a "man-woman" (effeminate male) or a "mannish" female.

Obviously such people have existed throughout human history.

"Binary" obviously doesn't describe all human beings, and never has.

What may be different now is that transgender people want to be considered, respected and treated as human beings, the way they are, the way they were born being.

It's just not a big deal, unless someone makes it one.

.

Edited June 24, 2014 by jacee

[cybercoma]

As I've said multiple times before, children know their gender and the gender of others because they are told it by parents, siblings, etc, not because of some profound innate understanding. I'm asking for a citation for the ability of a several year old child to conceptualize the idea that despite being told by everyone from birth that they are a boy, despite being addressed as a boy and looking like all the other boys out there, that he actually feels like a girl and identifies more with the female gender (without all this coming directly from the child's parent), or vice versa.

tell me how you test that? How do you find a child isolated from society? Meanwhile you have transgendered children abused by their parents for being "freaks", so it's obviously not just the parents' influence.