Canada Has A Labour Skills Shortage – Maybe

[Michael Hardner]

If it disapeared tomorrow, all of it, the economy would not care (barring the temporary dislocation of its work force).

Yes, like many other services. As the economy grows, so do discretionary services such as fast food.

When your Tim stock starts going down sell it and buy something else. I did.

The government has to take more interest in capitalists than telling them to buy something else, I think.

Being displaced by globalization, ie. by the fact someone else in the world can do the work cheaper, is a far cry from being displaced by bringing over foreign workers.

The only major difference I can see is where the workers happen to live.

However, since those workers are, by and large, unskilled, and we have appallingly, horrifically nearly totally incompetent training programs in this country, that isn't the case. They go on unemployment or welfare.

That sounds more objective - let's pursue that. Do you have a link ? I'm interested in what happens to these displaced workers, in the aggregate. I thought there is a huge boom in the geographical areas we're talking about, so that there is a dearth of workers in these jobs but maybe I was wrong.

You assume every discussion has to have balance? You assume there is two sides to every issue? Sometimes a bad idea is just a bad idea.

Discussions can have balance, or not. But if I'm trying to learn about an issue then I'm not interested in propaganda, which is probably too strong a term.

[Michael Hardner]

The program was allegedly supposed to assist businesses in obtaining workers whose skill-sets are rare, but clearly in the fast-food restaurant business, the only skill being sought is the ability to work cheap.

Yes, and working cheap has some economic advantages too, but since we don't have real economic discussions in "the" public then we're left with breathless finger-pointing, and politicking and backroom deals.

We don't have a public, we have masses of people who are not treated as adults, and not told the truth.

[kimmy]

If Canadian manufacturers are trying to compete in an international marketplace against Chinese manufacturers and Mexican manufacturers who have lower labor costs, that's a serious problem for them. If Canadian farmers are trying to compete in an international marketplace against American farmers who are heavily subsidized, that's a m

But there's no international marketplace for fast food. The competition isn't in China or Mexico, or even Quebec and Nova Scotia. It's down the street. The Burger King and the McDonald's are hiring from the same pool of workers, they're subject to the same regulations and the same economic costs of doing business. If there aren't enough fast food workers in town for both, they are supposed to compete with each other to attract them. Higher wages, a benefits package, whatever it takes to get a "warm body" there to flip those burgers.

And if there isn't enough business to support higher prices to cover those wages, then maybe that town doesn't need both restaurants.

-k

[eyeball]

The Conservative government might be thrilled at the thought of keeping wages down and helping their industry friends but damn few of their base likes this.

Further evidence of oligarchy replacing majoritarian democracy - as it's happening all around the planet - a globalization of governance. The prize at the end of the race to the bottom.

[Michael Hardner]

And if there isn't enough business to support higher prices to cover those wages, then maybe that town doesn't need both restaurants.

A note:

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2012/04/28/twotiered_wage_system_announced_by_tories.html

According to that article, the minimum wage still applies to TFW jobs.

[Peter F]

Quote from the linked Toronto Star article: "Employers will now be allowed to pay foreign temp workers 15 per cent less than the average wage."

What is the point of that?

[kimmy]

A note:

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2012/04/28/twotiered_wage_system_announced_by_tories.html

According to that article, the minimum wage still applies to TFW jobs.

That's really beside the point. If it takes $12/hr to persuade a senior to take a part time job in your town, then allowing the employer to import a worker at $10/hr is "cheap labor" because it's below market price in your town.

-k

[eyeball]

delete

Edited April 26, 2014 by eyeball

[eyeball]

Quote from the linked Toronto Star article: "Employers will now be allowed to pay foreign temp workers 15 per cent less than the average wage."

What is the point of that?

I'd say it's to prevent wages from rising according to so-called natural market forces. It's a deliberate purposeful widening of the income gap.

[bush_cheney2004]

Since there is no such thing as an "income gap", policies certainly can't be deliberately widening this myth.

[Peter F]

According to CBC http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mcdonald-s-canada-ceo-calls-foreign-worker-controversy-bullshit-1.2621151

From Minister Kenny’s press release Apr 16.   Under ‘Previous reforms to the Temporary Worker Program’

a bullet point: ‘Requiring employers pay TFWs at or above the prevailing regional wage rate as established by Service Canada' 

So there is no 15% less pay for temp foreign workers that I mentioned above.

Edit to add: but there used to be. The Toronto Star article linked by MH was Published on Sat Apr 28 2012 (post 130)

Edited April 26, 2014 by Peter F

[Michael Hardner]

What is the point of that?

Lower labour costs.

[eyeball]

...there is no such thing as an "income gap".

Clearly there is. Everywhere you look.

Employers will now be allowed to pay foreign temp workers 15 per cent less than the average wage.

[bush_cheney2004]

Clearly there is. Everywhere you look.

No, everywhere you look....or so it would seem. There is no such thing as an income "gap".

[eyeball]

Of course there is, you're just being silly.

[Michael Hardner]

That's really beside the point. If it takes $12/hr to persuade a senior to take a part time job in your town, then allowing the employer to import a worker at $10/hr is "cheap labor" because it's below market price in your town.

-k

If businesses have to close because the cost of labour is prohibitive, then that is a barrier. Businesses can and will lobby for legislative changes to allow them to continue to operate, and governments will listen.

There are other interests than just the employees' to be considered.

[waldo]

There are other interests than just the employees' to be considered.

well duh! Ya, that profit interest... why pay 'Canadian Granny' another $15 a day when you can simply tap the cheap FW program! Seems like a no-brainer, hey?

.

[Michael Hardner]

well duh! Ya, that profit interest... why pay 'Canadian Granny' another $15 a day when you can simply tap the cheap FW program! Seems like a no-brainer, hey?

.

Whether or not she's a Granny or a young 'bro' - she's simply a labour expense in the economic argument.

We have two types of economic arguments in our society:

The jobs-first people-first whinging, where politics rules the day and government puts up a PR-front to make it look like they are listening.

The money-first backdoor deals that business makes with government, where the important decisions really happen.

It's a two-tier discussion, not really democratic at all.

[Argus]

If businesses have to close because the cost of labour is prohibitive, then that is a barrier.

Every business has barriers. It's not the job of the government to deal with them.

Businesses can and will lobby for legislative changes to allow them to continue to operate, and governments will listen.

There are other interests than just the employees' to be considered.

Like votes. If everyone in the country hates this program it is going to cost the Tories votes, and deservedly so. Industry in Canada is lazy and inefficient. Like many Canadians, whenever they have a problem they look to the government to solve it rather than dealing with it themselves.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

Every business has barriers. It's not the job of the government to deal with them.

Well, clearly it is - and since business is an important stakeholder it should be.

[kimmy]

The TFW program was supposed to provide a temporary solution to worker shortages. Temporary. It's right there in the name.

But now these restauranteurs are telling us that the temporary foreign workers are a part of their business without which they can not survive. Clearly the program is being used in a way which it was not intended to be used. This wasn't intended to create a structural change in the way an entire industry operates.

There are lots of Canadians who have the skills to flip burgers and wipe tables and pour coffee. The fact that there are a shortage of them willing to do it at the wages that McDonalds or Tim are offering doesn't mean there is a need for foreign workers. It means there is a need for better employee incentives. If you can't get somebody to come run your cash register for $9/hr, try $10/hr.

And if the profit margin on a $3 Happy Meal isn't enough to pay the wages of the employees who are necessary to get the Happy Meal into the customer's hands, then maybe the Happy Meal should cost $3.50.

It also implies that we may have more McDonalds and Tims stores than the market will bear. If there aren't enough employees to staff a McDonalds or a Tims on every corner, then maybe there shouldn't be a McDonalds or a Tims on every corner.

-k

[cybercoma]

If businesses have to close because the cost of labour is prohibitive, then that is a barrier. Businesses can and will lobby for legislative changes to allow them to continue to operate, and governments will listen.

There are other interests than just the employees' to be considered.

And whose word are we going to take that business will have to close? The businesses themselves? Don't you think it's to their benefit to threaten closure and threaten getting rid of jobs to keep the benefits of cheap labour? Businesses constantly threaten to take their ball and go home if they're not given more and more and more. We're at a point in history where we've begun paying businesses for jobs (eg., tax incentives, reduced taxes, credits, infrastructure spending, employee training funds and on and on) instead of vice versa. Businesses need to pull up their socks and start looking out for themselves in the free market. They need to pay to train their employees. They need to adjust their wages and benefits so people are willing to work with them and stay with them. And if a business can't survive running itself appropriately, then it wasn't a very good business to begin with.

[cybercoma]

It also implies that we may have more McDonalds and Tims stores than the market will bear. If there aren't enough employees to staff a McDonalds or a Tims on every corner, then maybe there shouldn't be a McDonalds or a Tims on every corner.

-k

This is another thing that's not discussed enough around the TFWs. The problem with both McDonald's and Tim's is that they're franchises. The people that own those stores are customers to McDonald's corporate. It's in corporate's interest to sell more stores to more people with little concern about whether or not they can be successful. Those costs are in the hands of the franchisee.

[eyeball]

So the franchisees may have to pass some costs onto the corporation? And what if the corporation passes those on up the chain to it's shareholders? Oh, the humanity.

Slackers of the world unite!

[Big Guy]

The TFW program was supposed to provide a temporary solution to worker shortages. Temporary. It's right there in the name.

But now these restauranteurs are telling us that the temporary foreign workers are a part of their business without which they can not survive. Clearly the program is being used in a way which it was not intended to be used. ..

When any legislation "is being used in a way which it was not intended to be used" then the fault is in the wording of the bill. The role of an opposition in government is to be the "devils advocate" and test the wording of the bill so that it is clear and there will be no confusion and/or the legislation is being used in a way which it was not intended to be used.

I am disappointed in the Harper Conservatives that pile all kinds of bills into an Omnibus bill that does not give the time for proper scrutiny so that the mistakes can be ironed out before it is passed. The use of other peoples opinion with their interpretation of a program is a strength, not a weakness. It is the smart and successful manager who requests the input from participants before he/she tries to implement a new policy or procedure.