Peter F Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 What? Business supporting laws that interfere with the free market of labour? Whodathunk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Yep, businesses trying to stay afloat. Imagine! Luckily for us, if they fail the owners cannot collect employment insurance! Serves them right for risking that money in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 The last time we had a labour shortage this bad (about 7 years ago) in my part of Alberta, numerous businesses either closed their doors, went to severely reduced hours or radically changed their practices to stay afloat. Those numerous businesses were right in my trading area. That was in spite of paying well over minimum wage, offering cash bonuses for working 500+ hours, and other incentives.IOW....they would have had to wait in line a bit longer. Rest assured, no one closed their doors because of a lack of staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted April 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 I live in Southern Ontario. Thousands of offshore workers from Jamaica and Mexico just made their annual arrival to the area. They are essential to the tobacco, fruit, ginseng, vegetable industry etc. By the end of the season they will have purchased $hundreds of thousands in small appliances, clothes and other materials to take back home with them. Many local small business would not survive without them. The farmers claim that North Americans will not work for the wages that are being offered and if they had to increase wages then they would lose markets to Quebec and other areas where agriculture is subsidized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 The farmers claim that North Americans will not work for the wages that are being offered I was going to say something but the quote says it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Macadoo Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 But... some businesses have now hedged their bets with foreign workers. They still pay more than minimum wage, but their workers have a tougher time moving to other jobs..You mean indentured servitude? That was a lucrative business practice of the 19th century.......we should get us some Debtor's Prisons too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Yep, businesses trying to stay afloat. Imagine! Luckily for us, if they fail the owners cannot collect employment insurance! Serves them right for risking that money in the first place. They won't need UI if they shut their business down. The owners can go work at McDo's or some such place and make oodles of money! Without the risk to boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Rest assured, no one closed their doors because of a lack of staff. Burger King: almost new restaurant, built at cost $3 million, closed doors permanently, now has Brick mattress shop after about 18 months vacant Crickets restaurant: closed completely for a couple months, came back with one shift only. Boston Pizza: big chain restaurant, closed 2 or 3 stores for awhile, came back with one shift only. They later hired a whole bunch of Sri Lankan cooks ahead of the recent wave of foreign workers and went back to regular shifts. KFC: closed all their sitdown service at large restaurant, went to one shift of takeout only staffed mostly by owner and family. A&W: cut shift, dinner service only. M&M meats: cut hours dramatically, in violation of both franchise agreement and tenancy at mall. Restored regular ops about 9 months later Zellers: cut hours, closed early for nearly a year(another tenancy violation, and an anchor tenant too) Dollarama: cut hours drastically, closed Sundays for a year or so, back to regular business now Domo gas station: cut the day shift , then closed the station for a couple of months, then came back and stayed on evening shift only for quite a while. There were many others. It passed eventually, but it happened and the labour situation is starting again. Help wanted signs everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 They won't need UI if they shut their business down. The owners can go work at McDo's or some such place and make oodles of money! Without the risk to boot. Perhaps the state could just kick the evil bastards out and nationalize all business. Property is theft after all.. You mean indentured servitude? That was a lucrative business practice of the 19th century.......we should get us some Debtor's Prisons too. Yes, all those foreign service workers at Timmy Hos look and act like they hate being there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 (edited) Perhaps the state could just kick the evil bastards out and nationalize all business. Property is theft after all.. Perhaps the company should realize that, without government intervention, operating a business in that labour environment may simply be prohibitively expensive. Edited April 23, 2014 by Peter F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Overthere, my post still stands. Sure there could be lost shifts as it were but closing due to no staff is far too minor for anyone here to get worked up about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 There were many others. It passed eventually, but it happened and the labour situation is starting again. Help wanted signs everywhere. Businesses open and businesses close, for a wide variety of reasons. Restaurants are particularly vulnerable to bad management decisions. If there's a shortage of workers in service industry, you just offer higher wages. If you have to raise your prices, then you do so. All your competitors are in the same boat, after all. You can always hire staff for low skill jobs if you offer enough money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Macadoo Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Yes, all those foreign service workers at Timmy Hos look and act like they hate being there.Having their freedom of labour restricted might be preferable to starvation......worked for Ebeneezer Scrooge on Bob Cratchett. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Overthere, my post still stands. Sure there could be lost shifts as it were but closing due to no staff is far too minor for anyone here to get worked up about. That would depend on where you live, Atlantic provinces has always been a meca for min wage jobs, and those that wanted more have moved out west in search of better wages, it is now to the piont where alot of skilled labors such as in the construction fields, are so short workers it is effecting new builds even major construction jobs....in fact most maritimer papers are filled with employer ads from out west offering bonus, free moves, etc etc....martime employers can not compete... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 ....martime employers can not compete...If they think that then thats what they get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Businesses open and businesses close, for a wide variety of reasons. Restaurants are particularly vulnerable to bad management decisions. If there's a shortage of workers in service industry, you just offer higher wages. If you have to raise your prices, then you do so. All your competitors are in the same boat, after all. You can always hire staff for low skill jobs if you offer enough money. It wasn't a wide variety of reasons, it was one: shortage of warm bodies. Those businesses- mostly owned by ordinary people- suffered greatly as they still had to pay rent/mortgages, taxes, utilities even when closed or cut back greatly in opening hours. It was far worse in Fort McMurray, which had the double whammy of zero vacancy and immense rents as well as no labour available. And no, you cannot just keep raising prices. If you pay a burger flipper $25/hour you'll get staff, but you'll have no customers because the burger now cost $13. Now you have greatly increased fixed costs, food rotting, and no customers. Bad management? So you support them now taking advanatge of foreign worker programs to ensure they have a labour supply since resident Canadians apparently won't take that sort of work? That's good management, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted April 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 Just watched an interesting point of view from an immigration lawyer. She believes that the legislation is flawed. When a company, in good times, takes advantage of the program and legitimately hires temporary workers it does so with good intents. If the good times become not-so-good times and workers have to be laid off then the company is between the rock and the hard place. The legislation makes it impossible to lay off the contracted temp workers so the company has to target their local staff and let them go. I have not read the legislation but the explanation sounds feasible to me. Looks like the problem is with the wording of the bill (law). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 It was far worse in Fort McMurray, which had the double whammy of zero vacancy and immense rents as well as no labour available. And no, you cannot just keep raising prices. If you pay a burger flipper $25/hour you'll get staff, but you'll have no customers because the burger now cost $13. Now you have greatly increased fixed costs, food rotting, and no customers. Bad management? More like stupid economics. Yes you can just keep raising prices when that's exactly what your customer's employers are doing. 13$ for a burger is peanuts to a welder or truck driver who's making 5 or 6 hundred bucks or more a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 I have not read the legislation but the explanation sounds feasible to me. Looks like the problem is with the wording of the bill (law). I think the wording of the law is to appease a base of support that hates immigration - the same yahoos that cheer on the import of cheap foreign labour. If Canada has a shortage of Canadian workers then we should import more Canadians and treat everyone the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 Thats interesting. We want the cheap labour - we just dont want that cheap labour to be citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 If they think that then thats what they get. Well that was a well thought out reply...It's has nothing to do with what they think, it is a fact. Skilled labors are moving to where they can get better wages, and who can blame them .....and it is having a major effect in the atlantic provinces...I'm sure it is also effecting the rest of the provinces as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 It wasn't a wide variety of reasons, it was one: shortage of warm bodies. Those businesses- mostly owned by ordinary people- suffered greatly as they still had to pay rent/mortgages, taxes, utilities even when closed or cut back greatly in opening hours. It was far worse in Fort McMurray, which had the double whammy of zero vacancy and immense rents as well as no labour available. And no, you cannot just keep raising prices. If you pay a burger flipper $25/hour you'll get staff, but you'll have no customers because the burger now cost $13. Now you have greatly increased fixed costs, food rotting, and no customers. Bad management? So you support them now taking advanatge of foreign worker programs to ensure they have a labour supply since resident Canadians apparently won't take that sort of work? That's good management, right? It's good management to take advantage of whatever increases your profits, sure. But this government program is designed to allow companies to not bother to train their workers, not bother putting any effort into recruiting, and not have to worry about rising wages. Absent this program, companies would either have to train their own workers (in the case of skilled workers) or increase wages for low skilled workers. Greatly increased cost? I doubt it would amount to that much, and all the competition would have to do the same. Sure, increased prices for restaurant meals would decrease demand by some measurable quantity, but probably not greatly, and in any case, the market would ensure an equilibrium would be found wherein there was enough demand for meals at the cost which would allow restaurants to pay enough wages to attract employees. That's the beauty of the market. Government intervention rarely makes things better. All this program does frustrate market mechanisms and ensure local labour shortages continue, and in fact, escalate as wages are pushed down by cheap foreign workers. It also increases unemployment. Over time, easy access to TFWs leads to firms offering less training and lack of adjustment in wages, especially in low-skill jobs. This makes many occupations less attractive to domestic workers, thus generating a rising demand for TFWs and potentially higher domestic unemployment. This is particularly true for low-skill workers, who generally face unemployment rates at least twice higher than skilled workers. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/where-are-the-labour-shortages-if-only-we-knew/article18131094/#dashboard/follows/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 I think the wording of the law is to appease a base of support that hates immigration - the same yahoos that cheer on the import of cheap foreign labour. I'm not fan of immigration. Do you see me cheering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 No, you're a convenient exception to the rule. I'm guessing the distortion of market forces and economic dissonance this program causes is more than you can stand. I heard a heartwarming anecdote the other day about a local younger TFW that's been unofficially adopted by a First Nations lady who can't abide the thought of the lad being separated from the distant south Pacific island village he comes from. It was a nice contrast to the "boss' bitches" comment I heard being used to describe FW's last week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 Well that was a well thought out reply...Actually it is spot on . If they think that then they get that. If they look around and see people fleeing then they throw up their hands and whine they cannot compete. Of course everyone there is in the same boat, so what to do? Raise the premiums to a point where people dont want to move west for an extra couple of dollars. It truly is that amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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