Ukraine crisis

[bush_cheney2004]

No worries...Canada will save the day with "peacekeeping", "soft power", and "honest brokering". Canada will defeat the Russian Federation where it counts...on the ice !!

[Rue]

We sent some aging F18's to Estonia. Its like sending me to fight. A lot of gas expended but not much else.

On a more serious note, Harper has a dilemma. His foreign policy does not match the amount of spending on defence he has allowed in his years in office.

In fact he's spent less than any Liberal government. Not more than 1% of the gnp.

To rebuild our forces to match his mouth would create at least a 5 to 10 percent increase in taxes. He aint gonna do that.

Its pretty much like his law and order approach. He insists on steeper sentences but he won't match that increase in sentencing with larger prisons and so with nowhere to put the convicts he can get all the convictions he wants they walk after 6 months due to lack of space.

Politicians talk a lot and sound tough until push comes to shove and they have to find money to finance their mouths,

Right now we have an armed force that is far too small to even properly patrol our coasts or North. W can talk a bigtalk about the Middle East or Ukraine but the fact is we do not have the ability to do much unless we want to increase taxes and that's not going to win an election.

As it is Jr. Trudeau is trying to do his imitation of what he thinks a hippy is. He's trying to hipster his way across the country with feel good sound bites and lots of hugs and phrases that are giving people diabetes. People seem to be listening to his sound bites despite the cavities they cause.

I believe Harper's foreign policy is the correct one, but his words don't match the practical realty of the armed forces. We are ignoring our vets from Afghanistan with epidemic levels of illness. We need to wake up about what it takes to maintain a proper military and what happens when a nation does not and assumes the US will do it all.

Canadians are getting a rude awakening now that Obama has turned the US off of the world stage and away from being a world leader. What we took for granted, the US, is not there and Putin and terrorists are flourishing.

Now it will take more then some words to deal with it.

[bush_cheney2004]

The reality is that regardless of Canada's DND spending levels, it does not have the capability or force structure to bring significant resources to bear on the problem. Just as was seen for the higher spending Europeans against Libya, success was not assured until Obama provided "unique capabilities".

This is what depending too much on the U.S. will get you.

[Rue]

Agreed Bush, A nation of 34 million has its role to play within NATO not on its own.

As well I meant DND not gdp or gno. Correction acknowledged. That is the second time I have quoted the wrong stat, That was a mistake. You do not compare military expenditures to any gross national or domestic production level.

[Solidarity]

Putin Is Hitler with Stalin mixed in one.

You think Putin is going to invade Europe, start a world war, and genocide millions of civilians? Get a grip, you're hysterical. The only way that there will be a major conflict like you advocate is if politicians start to believe the idiotic mantra that 'The only way to stop Putin is with military force'. If you want to volunteer to go die over some Russian borderland in Eastern Ukraine, or South Ossetia, or Chechnya there's not much stopping you.

[jbg]

You think Putin is going to invade Europe, start a world war, and genocide millions of civilians? Get a grip, you're hysterical. The only way that there will be a major conflict like you advocate is if politicians start to believe the idiotic mantra that 'The only way to stop Putin is with military force'. If you want to volunteer to go die over some Russian borderland in Eastern Ukraine, or South Ossetia, or Chechnya there's not much stopping you.

What's your solution, a U.N. Resolution? Oops, I forgot, Russia can veto those, even though they're worth the paper they're printed on.

[-TSS-]

The news-reporting of this conflict is beginning to remind that of the Yugoslav civil-war 20 years ago with this simplistic good guys vs bad guys-view.

[Bob Macadoo]

The news-reporting of this conflict is beginning to remind that of the Yugoslav civil-war 20 years ago with this simplistic good guys vs bad guys-view.

How is that different than any conflict reporting?

[Big Guy]

The initial report on the cause of the downing of that aircraft over Ukraine;

The airplane was brought down by "high velocity objects penetrating the aircraft".

Huh?

Edited September 9, 2014 by Big Guy

[Rue]

I think Solidarity that Putin willmost certainly invade Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and other countries that he believes belong back in the Russian Empire if he feels no restraint,

That is what he is saying to his Russian audiences and I have no reason not to believe him. Why? Because it was not too long ago, we also had people like you saying Hitler would never invade Europe don't be ridiculous.

You talk the way you do because you did not grow up in a Communist country, or s the target of communists or Nazis. You talk exactly like someone who lives in a bubble far removed from the reality of the soil of Ukraine and the blood dripping on it.

You think what is happening in Ukraine is not real? What you think its not an invasion of Europe? What world do you live in? Does Ukraine not exist?

Do you think the cyber attacks and deliberate provocation on Estonia's borders are a joke? You think the buzzing of Finnish air space as a distraction while invading the Ukraine is a joke?

Go on stick your head in the mud. Hysteria? Why because I do not deny what Putin is? Why because I come from a blood line that was almost wiped out because complacent people like you sat on their buttoxes while the Nazis or communists took over with violence?

Right. Next you will tell me terrorism is not real and its hysterical to warn about ISIS.

Got it. Move on. Spare your see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil deaf and dumb act for someone else.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Rue

[-1=e^ipi]

I think Solidarity that Putin willmost certainly invade Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and other countries that he believes belong back in the Russian Empire if he feels no restraint,

Come on. Putin isn't that stupid.

[Solidarity]

What's your solution, a U.N. Resolution? Oops, I forgot, Russia can veto those, even though they're worth the paper they're printed on.

Solution to what, the realities of geopolitics? You need to define the problem before moving forward to problem solving and solutions. Frankly many of us in this thread have fundamental disagreements about the causes, and dangers posed by the Ukraine crisis and Russia.

@Rue

If Putin invades Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania or Finland the paradigm will have shifted, however I do not believe any of these events are remotely likely. My opinion is that advocating for war against Russia based on it's actions in Ukraine is simply not in Canada's, or the West's interests. In fact I think its practically the height of insanity. If people feel so passionate about stopping Putin through military force I would much rather they go join the Ukrainian volunteer regiments than advocate to send my fellow Canadians to their deaths. Canada has nothing to gain, and much to lose.

[Rue]

Is he that stupid -1,no. I also enjoyed thoroughly Solidarity's excellent well stated response. Excellent. Very well stated. Do I want a war no. However I do think though we should not under-estimate anything Putin says anymore than in the past when Stalin or Hitler spoke.

Putin to me is operating in a vacuum and I truly believe if he feels no restraint, he will keep going as he is.

SO what kind of restraint do we need?

My argument is that financial sanctions are very slow moving and punish only the Russian people and make them see Putin as their defender against the big bad West that hates them and he can blame his country's economic failures on those sanctions not his own bungled policies.

I think economic sanctions have proven a failure with Iran for example. They are a joke. Russia and China openly broke them.

I do think the responses NATO has initiated on the other hand are necessary such as an exercise in the Black Sea (which I appreciate was planned a long time before this crisis),military exercises, the creation of a rapid deployment team-even symbolic shows of force with NATO aircraft flying over Estonian air space.

I also believe some joint military exercises with Sweden and Finland two neutral nations if possible would send a message if those nations are worried enough.

In any event I believe the solution is through military presence via NATO. Do I think they should enter the Ukraine and attack Russia at this point no.

My problem solidarity is yes I do take Putin seriously. He is not just blowing hot air. He has demonstrated repeatedly he puts his soldiers where his mouth is. When he talks of taking Kiev in two weeks or using nuclear weapons, I believe he is flexing to test reaction time no differently then sending those old Russian Bear turbo prop bombers into Canadian air space testing response time.

He's testing. He's constantly prodding Europe to test them. There is no doubt in my mind he sees the West as his enemy and is living back in the cold war era here he wants back all the Warsaw pact nations.

Is he stupid -1,I do not know. Angry men flexing their macho parts do stupid things. Plenty of wars were started by stupid acts.

As for what Solidarity said I ask this because he made a valid response-when do we get involved. Isn;t that the question we need to ask? How long does one sit on their ass when a bully beats up on the school ground.

Solidarity let's restate this as a bully in a school yard. Putin has been ridiculing and beating up on the skinny kid with the big ears. The rest of the kids are doing nothing. They don't want to bring attention to themselves.

Me? Well I grew up the only Jew in an Irish neighbourhood, lol. They taught me. No you don't cower. Cowering gives you hemmeroids from all that crouching and slinking and other nasty stuff . What I would do is walk by and while the bully is harassing the skinny kid with the big ears, ask him if he knew what the time was.

Some bullies tell you the time and get the point and move on and leave the skinny kid alone. But you have to let them save face and make it look like your asking them the time made them forget about the skinny kid so you say thanks and act like nothing was happening.

Others well they didn't like it so the Irish God bless them taught me to stand sideways and when the bully had no watch kick himsmack in the balls real quick.

In this case, kicking Putin in the balls has not yet arrived. I think he still has his watch on. I think he's more the type who will turn and smile when he sees suddenly me and the rest of the school yard boys all asking him the time at the same time and always smiling of course.

In actual terms, I think NATO must act in a decisive, coordinated manner with a physical presence on the ground in the Baltic States and on the Ukrainian borders and say now in he Ukraine but not near the conflict zone and I would make clear to Putin that he's being asked what time it is.

What time is it? Time to stop. How do you convey that to a Putin...I say with a unified physical presence, not words.

Words mean nothing to a bully, Its not what you say, its what you do.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Rue

[dre]

Putin Is Hitler with Stalin mixed in one.

Hahahahahahahahah!

[Rue]

Oh look who doesn't read my posts giggling himself. Say Dre I am glad you are pleasuring yourself reading my posts.

Tee hee hee hee hee hee. Please wash your hands when you are done.

[Big Guy]

So areas in Ukraine where the majority of people use Russian as the everyday language will end up being part of Russia.

In Canada, we should go to war over this? Most of the rest of Europe understands this and that is why they talk tough out one side of their mouths and trade with Russia out of the other.

I do not think that it is in Russia's benefit or part of its plans to get involved against a NATO country.

[-1=e^ipi]

My problem solidarity is yes I do take Putin seriously. He is not just blowing hot air. He has demonstrated repeatedly he puts his soldiers where his mouth is. When he talks of taking Kiev in two weeks or using nuclear weapons, I believe he is flexing to test reaction time no differently then sending those old Russian Bear turbo prop bombers into Canadian air space testing response time.

He's testing. He's constantly prodding Europe to test them. There is no doubt in my mind he sees the West as his enemy and is living back in the cold war era here he wants back all the Warsaw pact nations.

In actual terms, I think NATO must act in a decisive, coordinated manner with a physical presence on the ground in the Baltic States and on the Ukrainian borders and say now in he Ukraine but not near the conflict zone and I would make clear to Putin that he's being asked what time it is.

What time is it? Time to stop. How do you convey that to a Putin...I say with a unified physical presence, not words.

Your entire rant seems to rely on various premises that I do not agree with, such as Putin wanting to take 'back all the Warsaw pact nations', Putin being comparable to Hitler, Putin planning to invade Kiev or Baltic states, etc.

Putin annexed Crimea after the overthrow of the government in Kiev because it is a majority ethic Russian & Russian-speaking oblast, it has access to the black sea, it has a Russian military base, it is relatively well off, it was part of Russia and not Ukraine for over 150 years, and there was a referendum were the majority of Crimeans wanted to join Russia (the referendum was unfair and biased, but despite that it is pretty obvious that the majority of the Crimean people wanted to join Russia).

The situation is very different from other Ukrainian oblasts. Specifically, Luhansk and Donesk were not historically part of Russia, have more opposition to joining Russia, are poor, and have little strategic importance to Russia. That is why Russia doesn't want those provinces to join them. It is much more useful for Russian influences to use those provinces and the rebels in those provinces as leverage to turn Ukraine into a federation that cannot join the EU or NATO. That is Putin's primary goal, to prevent Ukraine from joining the EU and NATO (though I think it is unlikely he will achieve this goal; Western Ukraine will inevitably join NATO and the EU).

As for annexing or invading Baltic states, those Baltic states are part of the EU and NATO, offer little strategic importance to Russia, and do not have large sections of the population from joining Russia.

I see no basis for your claims about Putin's intentions, because the intentions seem pretty obvious to me, and they don't involve trying to take control over all former Warsaw countries.

[Argus]

You think Putin is going to invade Europe, start a world war, and genocide millions of civilians? Get a grip, you're hysterical.

I think if Putin felt he had a good chance of success he'd invade Europe. That millions would die would not even be a consideration for a man like him. Fortunately, I think he is smart enough to know he would lose.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Argus

[Rue]

-1, The fact I think he is a Hitler-Stalin wannabe and you want to spin this man as some reasonable kind of person does not mean I rant any more than you do. You want to apologize and soft pedal this Nazi-Stalinist bafoon go ahead.

You want to down play what he is doing and apologize for him, go ahead. I do not.

I share the opinion of many people from the Baltic States, Finland, former Warsaw Pact nations and Sweden not just NATO countries who have genuine concerns as to his intentions.

I believe for example that Putin embolded by his invasion of Georgia, lack of opposition in Syria and his humiliation of Nato with the Ukraine has most certainly embolded him.

He's a lunatic who needs to be leashed.

He wants to create a land corridor between a new state in the Ukraine and Crimea and to pretend he does not is absurd.

One of his targets is Kaliningrad Oblast sitting on the Baltic Sea, seperated from Russia by Belarus and Lithuania.

On Estonia's public ETV website back in Septmber of 2011 General Ants Laaneots, the head of Estonia's defence forces stated:

"Russia has significantly increased its military presence in the western region (Baltic) and has created a new west strategic command that is -- to believe its own military head -- much more powerful than was the Leningrad military district," and

"This is causing worries in Finland, Sweden, Baltic State and Poland,".

The fact -1 that many people feel Putin is a lunatic and repeating the Hitler-Stalin song does not mean they rave and dant:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/1390758-russian-military-power-threatens-nordic-countries.html#ixzz3D820k0YS

http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/178609,Poland-is-doomed-says-Putin-advisor

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/huffington-post-vladimir-putin-wants-to-conquer-belarus-the-baltic-states-and-finland-341428.html

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/497112.html

http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.ca/2014/03/is-putin-new-hitler-in-making.html

http://americablog.com/2014/03/putin-wants-finland-baltic-states-says-former-top-adviser.html

-1 many people are speculating as to Putin's intent and goals let alone stability.

I myself think he's looking among other things at Kaliningrad Oblast. This Russian territory on the Baltic Sea, separated from Russia by Belarus and Lithuania is something he wants connected no different then he wants to agitate in the Ukraine trying to create a Russian puppet state connected to the Criminean Peninsula that would leave a rump state where Ukraine is.

Like many I believe he wants to take back Belarus, Lithuania, Estonia and is presenting a very serious concern to the traditionally neutral Finland and Sweden.

You apologize for him I will keep calling him what he is. A two bit fascist thug.

Of course he wants a corridor to it.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Rue