Argus Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 (edited) Ukraine and humanitarian aid. Philistine's perplexity Why does Ukraine refuse from Russian humanitarian aid under the aegis of ICRC? There are millions of citizens suffering in that East Ukrainian region. I don't believe that all of them are vicious separatists. They are just people occurred to live in wrong time in wrong place. I've heard that there are diabetic kids suffering and dying without medicine in Donetsk. I've heard Horlovka and Luhansk lack of food and water. Why do those human loving Ukrainian authorities prohibit helping them? And does it really matter where this aid comes from? I really don't understand. Maybe if you stopped watching Russian propaganda your understanding of a lot of things would improve. Edited August 8, 2014 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted August 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 Reliable and factual = agrees with Big guy more often than not. I've found Al-Jazera reliable information as well on certain topics. EVERY news outlet has bias of some kind. You just need to rip out the perceived bias. Which is almost impossible to do with the likes of CBC , CNN ect.... The fact that not even all our media in North America trot out the same line shows that Big Guy is on to something. I have found Fox and CNN to be mostly garbage, but now and then some solid thought provoking articles do get exposure. Sidelining sites you don't like may be more detrimental to whatever position you are holding. Then again, you might actually learn something new. Happens to me all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-TSS- Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 Brazil is going to make a lot of money now as they are not among the countries imposing sanctions on Russia and from now on Russia will import a lot of dairy products from Brazil. As for the no flying in each others airspace it will hurt a lot of countries in Europe to have to fly to Asia along a diverted route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 There is a shortage of pork world wide and harper has been opening up new markets, things will be fine. Agricultural products are fungible. We all know that Russia will continue to tap the global marketplace. They'll use exchanges the same way everyone else does. They have no way to exclude products from the "wrong" countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 Doers anybody really think that there is a chance in **** that any kind of sanctions will force Russia to exit the Crimea, with its predominantly Russian speaking population, and abandon their Black Sea Port and fleet? The argument seems to now be one of preventing the Russians from doing something that the West thinks it is going to do. How ridiculous it that? Then if the Russians DON'T do something then the West will claim that the sanction worked. Well I think the current economic sanctions must be working; The Chinese have not invaded Iceland, the Russians have not appropriated the Arctic (yet) and the United States has not invaded Canada. Those sanctions must be working! This silly Kabuki theater goes on with Harper jumping into this civil war and starting to undermine the Canadian economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-TSS- Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 Is there a very large number of Canadian citizens with a Ukrainian background who can not be disregarded? I cant think of any other reason why a country like Canada gets involved in a dispute which is really none of their problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Not trading with countries that we do not agree with is a great idea. We should forget Russia - oh - and China too. You did not get it. Doing business with Russia is wrong because Putin does not obey rules. You invest, you develop something at Russian territory and ... they grab it from you. Under any pretext. It's not ideology, it's a pure business. You risk, you loose... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) I cant think of any other reason why a country like Canada gets involved in a dispute which is really none of their problem. If Canada does not stop Putin (together with the democratic world), we can get problems from the North. This is not a fight for Ukraine, it's a fight for predictable order in the world. BTW, noting "Finland" in your profile. Russian political analysts say that the next goal of Putin's plan of resurrection of the new Russian Empire is Estonia (Narva) and the other Baltic states. I think, for Putin, Helsingfors is a fair prize too... Edited August 9, 2014 by ASIP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 If Canada does not stop Putin (together with the democratic world), we can get problems from the North. This is not a fight for Ukraine, it's a fight for predictable order in the world. BTW, noting "Finland" in your profile. Russian political analysts say that the next goal of Putin's plan of resurrection of the new Russian Empire is Estonia (Narva) and the other Baltic states. I think, for Putin, Helsingfors is a fair prize too... I do get it. Those sanctions must be working: Russia has not invaded Estonia or the other Baltic states. It also has not Invaded Finland. Now if we can ramp up those sanctions maybe it won't invade Canada! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solidarity Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 If Canada does not stop Putin (together with the democratic world), we can get problems from the North. This is not a fight for Ukraine, it's a fight for predictable order in the world. BTW, noting "Finland" in your profile. Russian political analysts say that the next goal of Putin's plan of resurrection of the new Russian Empire is Estonia (Narva) and the other Baltic states. I think, for Putin, Helsingfors is a fair prize too... The best way to prevent problems arising about Artic resources, is to ramp up tensions with Russia? You realize we will have to beg Nato (The Americans) for help the second Russia takes an aggressive stance? None of these Nato expiditions in Libya, Afghanistan, Ukraine have done anything to further Canadian Interests. They have served to export instability, suffering, and poverty to those regions, draining men and resources out of Canada while undermining Canadian credibility internationally. I still believe there is hope for a better future in Afghanistan, at least better than the hellhole it has been since the mujahadeen kicked the Soviets out, but our intervention certainly has had dramatic and deadly consequences. On the other hand, Libya is being transformed in front of our eyes from the Richest nation in africa per capita, with one of the highest standards of living, into a lawless war-zone with a non-functioning economy other than the oil exports controlled by whom exactly? Western Firms and Libyan/Islamic Warlords? That alone is a crime against humanity, perpetrated with the co-operation of our nation, and Nato (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/03/libya-freedom-now-flee-new-chaos). At this point in time its tough to understand how alligning ourselves so closely with American foreign policy is beneficial to Canadians. Yes they are by far the most important country in the world for Canada, but their constant interventionism and imperialistic ambitions clearly have damaging affects on people across the globe (Iran/Iraq/Vietnam/Nicaragua/Chile/Argentina the list goes on). Obviously the Russians have their own ambitions, but a non-alligned or at least somewhat independant Canada would allow more manouverability in foriegn affairs. For example if Canada remained neutral in the current Ukraine/Russia tensions and sanction escalation this would improve relations between the two nations and allow for a more equitable and friendly agreement to be reached when serious exploration of the Arctic Energy resources begins. Of course first you may need to cast aside the flawed narrative that the Russians are the new evil boogeymen out to conquor the world who will stop at nothing and subjugate any people who stand in their path. This is the exact sort of crap that, lets be honest, the US, US allies, and Western based media have been pushing since the Maidan revolution, with a level of evidence of Russian crimes that really does not back up the rhetoric they spew. If you simply look at the number of countries the USA/allies have messed around in, compared to the Russians, we win by a landslide. If they are a threat to the world because of Crimea and the Ukraine, what are we because of Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan? The fact is that the Ukrane civil war is a complex, fratricidal conflict mainly between ethnic russians and ethnic ukranians, with a small dose of mercs on both sides, being pushed on by geopolitical factions, and its right on Russias doorstep. From on-location news reports as well as social media videos/posts the evidence is undeniable that the Ukranian army is causing the majority of civilian death, and have even been shelling the cities of donetsk and luhansk practically indescriminately, not quite as severe, but still reminicent of the Russian treatment of Grozny. The irony that we are now supporting this criminal military action while barking about the evil Russians goes practically unnoticed amongst the general public, at least in my experience. IMO In the current arrangement, we in essence we surrender our foreign policy independence to make sure we are in the most powerful alliance. Is this current arrangement best for the long term growth and health of our nation? I'm not so sure, we cannot escape the history we write for Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 The best way to prevent problems ... the history we write for Canada. I too believe that the direction that the Harper government is trying to take Canada in foreign policy is not a healthy one. Many people on this board and elsewhere ridicule the previous position of Canada as an "honest broker" and demean having been in a position as an intermediary in global conflicts. Instead, Harper has made Canada a target for financial repercussions for his stance in Europe and a potential physical target for his stance in the Middle East. He appears to so want to be a "player" on the world scene that he is prepared to unilaterally align himself with American foreign policy. That is a dangerous game as the USA continues to make more and more enemies as its influence continues to wane in international politics. Remember that in opposition, he was ready to send troops into Iraq with the Americans and was kept from doing so because he did not have the power. He now has the power and God help us if he decides to join the USA in Iraq in this latest assault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 The best way to prevent problems arising about Artic resources, is to ramp up tensions with Russia? Absolutely! With a minor clarification. At this moment Russia is usurped by Putin. This man has no friends. In his world, there are only vassals and enemies. He is a bully. As a bully he treats negotiations as an evidence of the opponent weakness, hence, an invitation for ramming his way. Only a united front of the civilized world can affect him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 ....Remember that in opposition, he was ready to send troops into Iraq with the Americans and was kept from doing so because he did not have the power. He now has the power and God help us if he decides to join the USA in Iraq in this latest assault. Meh....the "natural ruling party of Canada" was more than happy to illegally bomb Serbia and depose the democratically elected president of Haiti in consort with the U.S. and other nations. They also sent Canadian forces to Afghanistan long before PM Harper took office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solidarity Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Absolutely! With a minor clarification. At this moment Russia is usurped by Putin. This man has no friends. In his world, there are only vassals and enemies. He is a bully. As a bully he treats negotiations as an evidence of the opponent weakness, hence, an invitation for ramming his way. Only a united front of the civilized world can affect him. Russia has friends, the BRICS, most of the Stans, some of the non alligned countries, ie venezuela, cuba, along with Syria and Libya before they were 'liberated'. Even Europe was doing a large amount of trade with Russia,. Your perception of Putin's motivations is simplistic and far removed from reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Russia has friends, the BRICS, most of the Stans, some of the non alligned countries, ie venezuela, cuba, along with Syria and Libya before they were 'liberated'. Even Europe was doing a large amount of trade with Russia,. Your perception of Putin's motivations is simplistic and far removed from reality. Not true. There is no any friendship among BRICS countries. It's more a phantom of propaganda. Especially "friendly" look relations between Russia and China. About the "Stans". Do you read Russian media? I remind you that the latest Russian embargo on the Western produce is widely treated as a demonstrative humiliation of Kazakhstan and Belorussia. My point was actually not about those countries (there are groups of population who admire Putin) but about Putin's attitude to them. Now the Russia's foreign policy (and internal too) is driven by Putin's personal ambitions, not the countries long-term interests. It's not only my idea, it's what many Russians say. My perception of Putin is, of course, wider, than presented, but is a reflection of the common trend in regions close to and dealing with the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Meh....the "natural ruling party of Canada" was more than happy to illegally bomb Serbia and depose the democratically elected president of Haiti in consort with the U.S. and other nations. They also sent Canadian forces to Afghanistan long before PM Harper took office. Sorry, trying to attach blame for the Iraq fiasco on Canada ain't gonna work. This baby is in the USA hands and USA hands only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Not true. There is no any friendship among BRICS countries. It's more a phantom of propaganda. Especially "friendly" look relations between Russia and China. About the "Stans". Do you read Russian media? I remind you that the latest Russian embargo on the Western produce is widely treated as a demonstrative humiliation of Kazakhstan and Belorussia. My point was actually not about those countries (there are groups of population who admire Putin) but about Putin's attitude to them. Now the Russia's foreign policy (and internal too) is driven by Putin's personal ambitions, not the countries long-term interests. It's not only my idea, it's what many Russians say. My perception of Putin is, of course, wider, than presented, but is a reflection of the common trend in regions close to and dealing with the subject. If fascinates me when posters start to explain what is in leaders minds, what they are thinking and why they do things. If you can read people's minds why not then let us know what Harper, Obama and the rest are thinking and what they are going to do. I base my opinions on what I see happening on the ground. I cannot read minds nor can I project what people will do. I suggest that all other posters are cursed with the same limitations and are tempted to base their opinions based on what they would like to see happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Sorry, trying to attach blame for the Iraq fiasco on Canada ain't gonna work. This baby is in the USA hands and USA hands only. Nobody said it wasn't....but to pretend that Canada's previous PM's haven't used military force for "illegal" wars only confirms an obvious bias. Own it...if you dare admit to such policies B.H.....Before Harper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Nobody said it wasn't....but to pretend that Canada's previous PM's haven't used military force for "illegal" wars only confirms an obvious bias. Own it...if you dare admit to such policies B.H.....Before Harper. You may argue whatever other issue you feel. The USA holds full responsibility for the Iraq fiasco and all of the subsequent instability in that region. They have taken credit for many good things that they have accomplished but they also have to take the blame for the fiascos. BTW - I don't speak for all of Canada nor anyone else but me. Edited August 9, 2014 by Big Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 You may argue whatever other issue you feel. The USA holds full responsibility for the Iraq fiasco and all of the subsequent instability in that region. They have taken credit for many good things that they have accomplished but they also have to take the blame for the fiascos. BTW - I don't speak for all of Canada nor anyone else but me. This is a Ukraine thread...so why are you rambling on about Iraq ? I don't speak for all Americans either, but I can easily recognize when someone refuses to admit the obvious vis-a-vis Canadian foreign policy before PM Harper. Canada is a NATO charter member with benefits and responsibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 This is a Ukraine thread...so why are you rambling on about Iraq ? I don't speak for all Americans either, but I can easily recognize when someone refuses to admit the obvious vis-a-vis Canadian foreign policy before PM Harper. Canada is a NATO charter member with benefits and responsibilities. Sorry - not interested in the direction you want to go. Find somebody else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Sorry - not interested in the direction you want to go. Find somebody else. Of course...another typical bail out when confronted with an opposing view. Toodles.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 I suggest that all other posters are cursed with the same limitations and are tempted to base their opinions based on what they would like to see happen. In our company, on a work ethics training, we were taught not to endorse the idea you are promoting. Never assume people should behave as you think is right. People may not have "same limitations". As I already explained, you have a very limited pool of information sources. Even when you "base your opinions on what you see happening on the ground" almost certainly means you won't be able to generate correct understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 In our company, on a work ethics training, we were taught not to endorse the idea you are promoting. Never assume people should behave as you think is right. People may not have "same limitations". As I already explained, you have a very limited pool of information sources. Even when you "base your opinions on what you see happening on the ground" almost certainly means you won't be able to generate correct understanding. I will probably continue to disagree with you but I do appreciate and respect your civility in disagreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Of course...another typical bail out when confronted with an opposing view. Toodles.... Sorry, not interested in playing your game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.