Ukraine crisis

[-TSS-]

The Ukraine-crisis has nothing to do with NATO and the obligations that come with belonging to NATO. Canada has voluntarily joined the countries placing sanctions on Russia.

The EU acts like a block and no individual countries within the EU can slip out of imposing sanctions. Lets remember how the crisis started: The ousted Ukrainian government refused to sign a free trade-deal with the EU. Then Yanukovich was kicked out and a pro-EU government came in or, according to the Russian propaganda, was installed.

[Solidarity]

Not true.

There is no any friendship among BRICS countries. It's more a phantom of propaganda. Especially "friendly" look relations between Russia and China.

About the "Stans". Do you read Russian media? I remind you that the latest Russian embargo on the Western produce is widely treated as a demonstrative humiliation of Kazakhstan and Belorussia.

My point was actually not about those countries (there are groups of population who admire Putin) but about Putin's attitude to them. Now the Russia's foreign policy (and internal too) is driven by Putin's personal ambitions, not the countries long-term interests. It's not only my idea, it's what many Russians say.

My perception of Putin is, of course, wider, than presented, but is a reflection of the common trend in regions close to and dealing with the subject.

Indian PM Modi at recent meetings in Fortaleza

“If you ask anyone among the more than one billion people living in India who is our country’s greatest friend, every person, every child knows that it is Russia. Everyone knows that Russia has always stood side by side with India during the toughest moments and without demanding anything in return,” Modi told Putin.

China and Russia just recently signed a $400 bln dollar gas contract, china and India a $40bln gas contract. Russia recently inked a 2 Billion dollar contract to import military electronics from China, and the two countries maintain significant military and economic ties, with China being Russias largest trading partner. In the recent Russian tank biathalon competition being held, which western teams including GER, USA, ITA backed out of due to political pressure, India and China still sent teams. To claim there is no friendship or alliance Russia and India/China is strange, and I have only touched on a mountain of evidence of their co-operation economically and politically.

What you say about belorussia is factually false, Belorussia has in fact been sanctioning Ukranian products and maintains a freed trade agreement with Russia, in fact Belarus stands to gain from the Euro sanctions through increased agricultural demand from russia and 'grey' trading of EU goods repackaged as Belourussian Goods. I have not read anything about Kazakstan, but the situation seems identical. Since neither Bel/Kaz are sanctioning or being sanctioned by russia it's hard to understand how the embargo would be a 'humiliation,' and unless you provide some evidence for the claim it is not convincing.

[bush_cheney2004]

Sorry, not interested in playing your game.

Thank you for providing a very interesting perspective on U.S. policies in Iraq and Canadian foreign policy. Though this is a thread about Ukraine, it is very common to have such discussions pointed in Iraq's direction by certain members with an axe to grind for Canadian politics. Now that PM Harper has deployed a squadron of CF-188s to Europe, it is quite predictable that "Iraq" would be invoked again...and again, even if it is not relevant.

[bush_cheney2004]

The Ukraine-crisis has nothing to do with NATO and the obligations that come with belonging to NATO. Canada has voluntarily joined the countries placing sanctions on Russia.

This is erroneous, as Canada and Brussels are very much concerned about developments in Ukraine and the potential impact on neighboring NATO member nations.

[ASIP]

I will probably continue to disagree with you but I do appreciate and respect your civility in disagreement.

I have to accept my wording wasn't the best. I would like to roll back a little bit. Thank you for your patience.

[ASIP]

Since neither Bel/Kaz are sanctioning or being sanctioned by russia it's hard to understand how the embargo would be a 'humiliation,' and unless you provide some evidence for the claim it is not convincing.

Oh, you definitely haven't read how this is discussed in the Russian-speaking media.

For your information:

http://inforesist.org/u-rossii-net-soyuznikov-u-nee-est-libo-konkurenty-libo-vassaly-libo-vragi/

http://www.dw.de/%D0%BF%D1%83%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD-%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B5%D1%82-%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%81-%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE-%D0%B8-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%BC-%D0%B2-%D1%81%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5-%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D1%8D%D0%BC%D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%BE/a-17840055

[-TSS-]

One picture speaks more than a thousand words:

http://www.rferl.org/contentinfographics/gazprom-russia-gas-leverage-europe/25441983.html

[Solidarity]

Oh, you definitely haven't read how this is discussed in the Russian-speaking media.

For your information:

http://inforesist.org/u-rossii-net-soyuznikov-u-nee-est-libo-konkurenty-libo-vassaly-libo-vragi/

http://www.dw.de/%D0%BF%D1%83%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD-%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B5%D1%82-%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%81-%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE-%D0%B8-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%BC-%D0%B2-%D1%81%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5-%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D1%8D%D0%BC%D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%BE/a-17840055

How about a quote from some senior government officials from Belarus or Kaz. Or a quote from a leading commercial or societal organization in either of those countries. Those would be a lot more convincing than foreign language articles from a Ukrainian and a German news site. Not only that but the translation of the article I read (The German one, didn't even bother reading the Ukrainian site) held little of anything to support your position. From the German article.

As pointed out by the Belarusian news agency "Belta" meeting was held on the initiative of the Russian side. Putin Lukashenko informed on economic measures and called on Belarus to take "understanding" to the steps "taken in the interests of Russia's economic security." In turn, President of Belarus promised to ensure "full transparency on the border in the spirit of partnership," the press service of the Belarusian president.

So thanks for the links I guess? If you are trying to convince me you are going to have to do a lot better than that. Perhaps putting together an actual analysis based on facts would be a start. In our discussion you have failed to provide facts or evidence to support your statements and rhetoric. It's starting to feel like you are simply throwing ideas at the proverbial wall and hoping something sticks.

[Argus]

Indian PM Modi at recent meetings in Fortaleza

“If you ask anyone among the more than one billion people living in India who is our country’s greatest friend, every person, every child knows that it is Russia. Everyone knows that Russia has always stood side by side with India during the toughest moments and without demanding anything in return,” Modi told Putin.

It's certainly true that autocrats enjoy sucking up to each other, and never complain about human rights violations.

Modi is a man who until recently was barred from many countries because of his gross abuse of human rights, his encouragement of Hindus to massacre other religious groups in the streets. It's unsurprising he would appreciate Putin as a fellow traveler of the old school of the iron fist. Were it not for the corruption in India he'd be in prison now.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

At this point in time its tough to understand how alligning ourselves so closely with American foreign policy is beneficial to Canadians.

It is?! Really?!

By FAR and away our biggest and most important trading partner and by FAR our most important military treaty partner and by FAR our most important tourist source country, and you find it hard to understand how aligning ourselves with them is beneficial? As opposed to sticking our thumb in their eye and sucking up to dictators?

Yes they are by far the most important country in the world for Canada, but their constant interventionism and imperialistic ambitions clearly have damaging affects on people across the globe (Iran/Iraq/Vietnam/Nicaragua/Chile/Argentina the list goes on)

Imperialist ambitions? They've colonized somewhere, have they?

As to interventions, I might remind you that there's no need to intervene unless the trouble was there first.

Obviously the Russians have their own ambitions,

You say negligently, as if to suggest that isn't at all important, even though they're a brutal kleptocracy whose most noted export, aside from oil, is criminals. This is a country which believes in expansion by tank fire, much like the old Soviet Union Putin misses so much.

but a non-alligned or at least somewhat independant Canada would allow more manouverability in foriegn affairs.

We have complete maneuverability in foreign affairs. Do you think Ottawa asks Washington what position to take before taking it? Do you think we take positions just to please the Americans? Has it entered your mind that there might just be a certain mutual interest involved in most cases?

For example if Canada remained neutral in the current Ukraine/Russia tensions and sanction escalation this would improve relations between the two nations and allow for a more equitable and friendly agreement to be reached when serious exploration of the Arctic Energy resources begins.

And would seriously damage our reputation with all the free countries of the world, including the US, whose influence we will need if Russia starts throwing elbows in our face in the Arctic area. Which, given they are an autocratic government run by a murdering thief, is not unlikely.

[Solidarity]

It's certainly true that autocrats enjoy sucking up to each other, and never complain about human rights violations.

Modi is a man who until recently was barred from many countries because of his gross abuse of human rights, his encouragement of Hindus to massacre other religious groups in the streets. It's unsurprising he would appreciate Putin as a fellow traveler of the old school of the iron fist.

He's also the leader of the second most populous country, and most populous democracy in the world. His opinion has significant real world importance and implications.

[Argus]

He's also the leader of the second most populous country, and most populous democracy in the world. His opinion has significant real world importance and implications.

Perhaps, but he is still morally repugnant, and I have no interest in taking him as my guide to our foreign policy.

[Big Guy]

He's also the leader of the second most populous country, and most populous democracy in the world. His opinion has significant real world importance and implications.

Thank you for some very interesting insights. It is refreshing to read opinions based and directed towards the issue rather than trying to attack the poster. Your presentations indicate an experience in expressing your opinions and I hope some experience on these anonymous boards. You know that you will soon be targeted by those who resent anyone changing the accepted process of personal attacks, baiting and derision.

Welcome to the board.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Big Guy

[Solidarity]

It is?! Really?!

By FAR and away our biggest and most important trading partner and by FAR our most important military treaty partner and by FAR our most important tourist source country, and you find it hard to understand how aligning ourselves with them is beneficial? As opposed to sticking our thumb in their eye and sucking up to dictators?

Imperialist ambitions? They've colonized somewhere, have they?

As to interventions, I might remind you that there's no need to intervene unless the trouble was there first.

You say negligently, as if to suggest that isn't at all important, even though they're a brutal kleptocracy whose most noted export, aside from oil, is criminals. This is a country which believes in expansion by tank fire, much like the old Soviet Union Putin misses so much.

We have complete maneuverability in foreign affairs. Do you think Ottawa asks Washington what position to take before taking it? Do you think we take positions just to please the Americans? Has it entered your mind that there might just be a certain mutual interest involved in most cases?

And would seriously damage our reputation with all the free countries of the world, including the US, whose influence we will need if Russia starts throwing elbows in our face in the Arctic area. Which, given they are an autocratic government run by a murdering thief, is not unlikely.

Pretty much nowhere did I state we should suck up to dictators or stick our thumb in the eye of the Americans. That was a huge leap by you to put words in my mouth. I think that Canada is so intertwined with America that we should have co-operation with them and align closely on many issues. However unless you consider remaining un-involved in the Ukraine, and not sanctioning Russia to be sucking up to them and thumbing the eyes of the Americans, I fail to see your point. If that is the case its tough to think see how Canada has any independence of policy, if it would lead to some sort of retaliation from the Americans for straying from their policy. Canada remained uninvolved in Iraq, a much larger 'kinetic action' than anything west/russia related has escalated to, and that didn't seem to have any tangible effects on our relationship.

If you have some other explanation than enforcing western hegemony for the the constant meddling in internal affairs, overthrowing of foreign governments, support of brutal dictators, arms trafficking to rebels/terrorists/dictators/monarchies(Saudis), flat out Invasion and decimation of countries by NATO/USA I would be interested in hearing it. If it involves spreading democracy or freedom I would be less interested. Where is this doctrine of expansion by tank fire in practice? The last time the Russian army was in combat was Georgia? An action the EU official report blamed Georgia for. Meanwhile Nato Drones and Planes are involved in Yemen/Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya/Pakistan/Somalia and possibly other places over the same time frame. If you blame Russia for the Ukrainian civil war I ask whether you consider the Maidan Revolution and the current Kiev government as wholly legitimate? I further would ask your opinion of their indiscriminate shelling of Donetsk and Luhansk that have led to a massive humanitarian crisis in the region. What about the current government using the military to clear out demonstrations in Maidan Square against Poroshenko today and yesterday?

Have the South American countries embarrassed themselves in front of the world by not Sanctioning Russia? What about the African and Middle Eastern countries such as turkey? What about India? Where was the Canadian Interest in destroying Libyan society, and fueling the fratricidal conflict which is tearing apart and bankrupting Ukraine? I implore you to answer these questions. In my view there is simply no Canadian interest other than making sure team Nato-USA wins again, and gets influence over another little chunk of the world. I'd be interested in hearing your perspective on what the Canadian benefit is to involving ourselves in these conflicts. The idea that Harper and crew isn't co-ordinating with the USA on foreign policy, and doesn't call up the relevant American representative before taking a significant foreign policy position is laughable to anyone with an idea of how politics and international relations work. I'd also challenge you to find a significant issue of foreign policy where the current Canadian Gov't has taken a stance counter to the official American position. We can still work with the Americans, we just don't need to work SO closely with them that we get dragged along into quagmires like Libya and the Ukraine.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Solidarity

[-TSS-]

I'm not sure about actual Canadians but I think if I were Canadian I would never call the people of the USA as Americans. That just doesn't sound right given that America is a vast continent that the USA is only one country in it.

[Big Guy]

I believe that with the breakup of the Soviet Union, the USA became the dominant power in the world. Unfortunately, the power in Washington decided the Americans will also be the global sheriff with the right to impose American values and democracy on the rest of the world. The Middle East had evolved into an unsteady and fragile combination of different powers creating an unsteady but continuing stability between nations. There were democracies, kingdoms, theocracies and dictatorships. They were all different and opposed but maintained a balance of power between ethnic groups with periodic civil wars to slowly adjust the power structures.

Then the USA got involved. It changed whatever stability had been created through time, civil wars and ethnic in fighting. Dictators were defeated and all the centuries old resentments and differences were let loose - and we have what is going on to-day.

It is now like the old west in America. Everything is up for grabs. There are thousands of ethnic fires being lit in every corner of the Mideast and America no longer has the troops or enthusiasm to put them out. Too late. The Americans removed the unpleasant but necessary restraints of dictatorships on uneducated and fractious illiterate religious sects, resulting in chaos, ethnic cleansing and religious extremism.

The West can no longer control what is happening in the rest of the world. It is a new world order - of religious disorder.

How many Western soldiers would strap dynamite around themselves and walk into an enemy camp prepared to die for their cause?

For every innocent civilian that we kill we create at least one potential suicide bomber. We have been complicit in killing hundreds of thousands. We try to laugh off that kind of dedication to a cause by referring to those virgins awaiting those suicide bombers but we know the world is getting smaller.

The USA has led the West into opening that Pandora's box of hate towards the West. We will pay the price.

[jbg]

I will make some attempts to respond to this masterfully written post. Indeed it is so well written it is hard to argue with.

The best way to prevent problems arising about Artic resources, is to ramp up tensions with Russia? You realize we will have to beg Nato (The Americans) for help the second Russia takes an aggressive stance? None of these Nato expiditions in Libya, Afghanistan, Ukraine have done anything to further Canadian Interests.

You lost me. Are Libya, Afghanistan, Ukraine Arctic countries? I checked Google maps and none seem to be in that region. Also do you realize that Canada, as a NATO member, is entitled to assistance if Russia takes an aggressive stance against it

They have served to export instability, suffering, and poverty to those regions, draining men and resources out of Canada while undermining Canadian credibility internationally. I still believe there is hope for a better future in Afghanistan, at least better than the hellhole it has been since the mujahadeen kicked the Soviets out, but our intervention certainly has had dramatic and deadly consequences.

So you're saying Canadian instability, suffering and poverty are being exported to Libya, Afghanistan and Ukraine? Give me more information.

On the other hand, Libya is being transformed in front of our eyes from the Richest nation in africa per capita, with one of the highest standards of living, into a lawless war-zone with a non-functioning economy other than the oil exports controlled by whom exactly? Western Firms and Libyan/Islamic Warlords? That alone is a crime against humanity, perpetrated with the co-operation of our nation, and Nato (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/03/libya-freedom-now-flee-new-chaos).

Maybe the Libyans did that to themselves?

At this point in time its tough to understand how alligning ourselves so closely with American foreign policy is beneficial to Canadians. Yes they are by far the most important country in the world for Canada, but their constant interventionism and imperialistic ambitions clearly have damaging affects on people across the globe (Iran/Iraq/Vietnam/Nicaragua/Chile/Argentina the list goes on).

Would you enshrine ISIS or Hamas as the advocate for the poeple that the U.S. is oppressing?

Obviously the Russians have their own ambitions, but a non-alligned or at least somewhat independant Canada would allow more manouverability in foriegn affairs. For example if Canada remained neutral in the current Ukraine/Russia tensions and sanction escalation this would improve relations between the two nations and allow for a more equitable and friendly agreement to be reached when serious exploration of the Arctic Energy resources begins.

Are you saying Canada is the biggest obstacle to Ukraine/Russian harmony?

Of course first you may need to cast aside the flawed narrative that the Russians are the new evil boogeymen out to conquor the world who will stop at nothing and subjugate any people who stand in their path. This is the exact sort of crap that, lets be honest, the US, US allies, and Western based media have been pushing since the Maidan revolution, with a level of evidence of Russian crimes that really does not back up the rhetoric they spew. If you simply look at the number of countries the USA/allies have messed around in, compared to the Russians, we win by a landslide. If they are a threat to the world because of Crimea and the Ukraine, what are we because of Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan?

What is the Maidan Revolution? I am intrigued.

The fact is that the Ukrane civil war is a complex, fratricidal conflict mainly between ethnic russians and ethnic ukranians, with a small dose of mercs on both sides, being pushed on by geopolitical factions, and its right on Russias doorstep. From on-location news reports as well as social media videos/posts the evidence is undeniable that the Ukranian army is causing the majority of civilian death, and have even been shelling the cities of donetsk and luhansk practically indescriminately, not quite as severe, but still reminicent of the Russian treatment of Grozny. The irony that we are now supporting this criminal military action while barking about the evil Russians goes practically unnoticed amongst the general public, at least in my experience.

IMO In the current arrangement, we in essence we surrender our foreign policy independence to make sure we are in the most powerful alliance. Is this current arrangement best for the long term growth and health of our nation? I'm not so sure, we cannot escape the history we write for Canada.

Did the Ukraine army shoot the Malaysian plane down? Are Ukrainian rebels stirring the pot in Russia? Pleaes provide examples.

[ASIP]

How about a quote from some senior government officials from Belarus or Kaz. Or a quote from a leading commercial or societal organization in either of those countries. Those would be a lot more convincing than foreign language articles from a Ukrainian and a German news site. Not only that but the translation of the article I read (The German one, didn't even bother reading the Ukrainian site) held little of anything to support your position. From the German article.

Are you really so ignorant or just pretending that you don't understand what is going on?

Do you expect any official from the "independent" countries would accept that Putin wiped his shoes on them?

Belarus and Kazakhstan are in a custom union with Russia; and by the treaty, Putin had to consult with these countries before he takes any steps on import. Many goods enter this union through Belarus, not Russia's border, for example.

Here he decided everything himself and just inform his "partners" post-factum. He decided that goods allowed through other country borders.

And of course, the Russian propaganda calls such action "consultations"...

[bush_cheney2004]

....The USA has led the West into opening that Pandora's box of hate towards the West. We will pay the price.

If so, why did Canada follow the USA ? Pay the price for what Canada has done .....

[GostHacked]

Solidarity has it mostly right in my view. I will also add, that the instability is a buffer between Russia/China/Iran and the EU and NA.

I'll explain. The EU and NA are pushing back on China in Africa. African countries are shunning western support, mainly it seems because, even though the Chinese are doing the same, they are actually helping African communities instead of dosing them with vaccines and raping them for their resources, like the west currently does.

Create turmoil in Ukraine to create a buffer zone between Russia and the EU. Add the turmoil in the Middle East and you have an even bigger buffer area. Most of north Africa to the Middle East up to the eastern part of Europe. This is where the new bigger wars will be fought.

ISIS plays into this quite well. This group came out of the other rebel groups in Iraq and allegedly out of Al-Queda. ISIS is good for the EU/NA in terms of it keeps the other terrorists busy fighting them. The more they fight each other, they won't fight us. At least that is the mentality as I see it. ISIS has been tearing up Iraq for the past few years as I have documented it here and you can see the weekly bombings in Iraq causing large causalities. NO ONE GAVE ONE SINGLE F*CK before these Christians were being attacked. And those retaliatory attacks only come after US military installations in Iraq were fired upon.

That alone might make US military personnel uneasy in the battlefield. Since ISIS is using jacked equipment from Iraqi bases. Imagine drawing a bead on a humvee or an A1 Abrams not knowing if it is friendly or now. Perfect for false flag attempts on both sides.

Eventually other countries are going to get washed up in this. The Iranians, Saudis, Qatars, ect are getting nervous. As would be Israel. If ISIS and others start moving west towards Israel, you will see Israel come out of it's shell and go full tilt on ISIS.

Someone really wants to start a new big world war. I just don't know what the catalyst will be. But so far we are matching what happened running up to the war. Trade wars, currency wars, sanctions, all leading to physical war. Casualties will be large on both sides as the weapons of today do way more damage than those of the past. Even other types of warfare many might not be aware of. Cyber warfare, infrastructure espionage, propaganda wars through various state media, weather warfare....

All while this is going on we see a rising threat to the World Bank, IMF and the US Federal Reserve, through something called The BRICS conglomerate. They are starting to set up shop and in a few years will start to erode the monopoly that the IMF/World Bank/Fed Reserve trio have been offering, more like pushing on us for decades. All that is really to prop up the US petrodollar. Reason why Gaddafi and Hussein were taken out. You are already seeing countries ditch the petrodollar/US greenback for other currencies that are proving to be of more value, and maybe in the long run more stable.

So in the end, the war is about MONEY. So there are idiots on BOTH sides. And all of us here are caught between these idiots ready to throw rockets at each other. When do we really say enough is enough? Does it really take lynching of our leaders for them to take notice? Since they won't hold themselves accountable, and the system is rigged to let them get away with all this because we are too freaking busy being entertained. Then people scream, WHY DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THIS !!??. Headless chickens running through the street panicking.

[Solidarity]

Are you really so ignorant or just pretending that you don't understand what is going on?

Do you expect any official from the "independent" countries would accept that Putin wiped his shoes on them?

Belarus and Kazakhstan are in a custom union with Russia; and by the treaty, Putin had to consult with these countries before he takes any steps on import. Many goods enter this union through Belarus, not Russia's border, for example.

Here he decided everything himself and just inform his "partners" post-factum. He decided that goods allowed through other country borders.

And of course, the Russian propaganda calls such action "consultations"...

You are the one who fails to provide the facts and evidence to back up your claims. If you are so well informed, put together a compelling case for your claims. Your last effort really didn't really have any substance to it. Reading the media, it even appears BEL/KAZ could benefit from these food sanctions! (http://www.freshfruitportal.com/2014/08/07/russia-looks-to-kazakhstan-belarus-after-food-import-ban/?country=others)

excerpt

Tengrinews correspondent reports citing the head of the National Chamber of Entrepreneurs of Kazakhstan Ablai Myrzakhmetov.

"The President has clearly stated Kazakhstan's position: we stand for a peaceful resolution [of the conflict in Ukraine] and support a constructive dialogue. However, we see some new opportunities emerging. You have witnessed Russia introduce sanctions against traditional suppliers of food products, fruit and vegetables, such as Moldova and Poland. Clearly, Russia will try to develop its own production, but for us, too, there are opportunities in the areas that will be hit by the sanctions. [We should] increase our production of these goods, especially of agricultural products, which is achievable," Myrzakhmetov said at the yesterday's briefing in the Central Communications Service headquarters.

For more information see: http://en.tengrinews.kz/politics_sub/Kazakhstan-sees-opportunity-as-Putin-bans-Western-food-import-255243/

Use of the Tengrinews English materials must be accompanied by a hyperlink to en.Tengrinews.kz

Interestingly a parallel to the argument you make regarding the Eurasian Customs Union is that EU member states were forced to take steps for sanctions which they would not have engaged in on their own. For example Greece and Serbia certainly wouldn't sanction Russia if they were not obligated to by their EU membership. This is irrelevant to the main issue that you have yet to provide any persuasive proof of your claims. Until you provide some, your claim that I am ignorant reeks of intellectual dishonesty. How about you try and put up a post of substance?

[Solidarity]

I will make some attempts to respond to this masterfully written post. Indeed it is so well written it is hard to argue with.

You lost me. Are Libya, Afghanistan, Ukraine Arctic countries? I checked Google maps and none seem to be in that region. Also do you realize that Canada, as a NATO member, is entitled to assistance if Russia takes an aggressive stance against it

So you're saying Canadian instability, suffering and poverty are being exported to Libya, Afghanistan and Ukraine? Give me more information.

Maybe the Libyans did that to themselves?

Would you enshrine ISIS or Hamas as the advocate for the poeple that the U.S. is oppressing?

Are you saying Canada is the biggest obstacle to Ukraine/Russian harmony?

What is the Maidan Revolution? I am intrigued.

Did the Ukraine army shoot the Malaysian plane down? Are Ukrainian rebels stirring the pot in Russia? Pleaes provide examples.

My objection to Canadian interference in Libya, Ukraine, and Afghanistan are related to the Arctic in the context of the growing tension escalation between the Western Power Bloc of Nato/EU and Russia. Our heavy involvement in these conflicts has enshrined Canada as one of the stronger adherents and contributors to NATO doctrine of interventionism and expansion. In the current escalations of tensions, Canada has been at the very forefront along with the USA, Germany, UK, and a few other nations. It is likely that Canada, along with these countries will experience the harshest retaliations, or at very least the greatest degradation of relations. Even if we assume that Canada must sanction Russia to show solidarity with USA/EU, I would much prefer if our leadership was not so vocal, and so aggressive towards the Russians (To the extent of providing military aid to the Ukrainians, as well as potential economic aid). I believe that in the future it will be beneficial to keep cordial relations with the Russians, as relying on NATO's (Basically the Americans) military power to enforce our claims on Arctic Energy Resources, is in my opinion less beneficial than co-operation and negotiated agreement on them. Right now there is a significant % of the worlds undiscovered and unexplored oil and gas in the Arctic, aligning our nation in direct opposition to the Russians, with whom we will vie for control of these resources seems unwise to me. Especially considering their much greater military and arctic naval capabilities. Obviously it's hard to see what the long term effects of the current escalations will be right now, but I believe the government is making very significant decisions with the potential for massive long term (economic and political) ramifications without much of a public debate. There is a lot at stake here, and I don't believe the public is being well enough informed by media or government.

Regarding Libya/Afghanistan/Ukraine it was a figure of speech to indicate that our interventions in these countries have led to instability suffering and poverty within those three nations which would not have existed if NATO had not become involved. Each of these operations must be studied on its merits individually, as well as how they fit into the overlying geopolitical matrix to really evaluate the legitimacy and benefits/negative outcomes of each. In that sense I believe that NATO intervention in Afghanistan had some merits, and may result in some long term benefits, however I am much more pessimistic about Libya and the Ukraine. I touched on this when I linked to this piece (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/03/libya-freedom-now-flee-new-chaos), our intervention in Libya especially has had catastrophic humanitarian effects, as we are witnessing the collapse of Libyan society at the behest of feuding warlords/Islamist and Corporate western Interests. Libya is transforming from one of the most progressive, wealthy, and prosperous African countries into a non functional society and economy. Nato's 26,500 air sorties in support of the rebels directly supported this outcome, It's likely the government would have been able to suppress the rebels without NATO intervention. When considering Libya before and after, our intervention and overthrow of Gaddafi constitutes a crime against humanity in my opinion. The rebels we supported in Libya are very similar to those who have destroyed Syria, and commit massacres, genocide of minorities, and general brutality. The Americans even support those Syrian rebels with training and military equipment as well.

I believe ISIS should be eradicated by a combined military effort. The USA especially bears the blame for their dominance of the Sunni regions of Syria and Iraq through their invasion and destabilization of the region, and they should lead the military operation to clean up their own mess and eradicate ISIS as much as possible. ISIS is the worst of the worst, true terrorists, they lack any humanity and need to be stopped. The fact they are operating with so much US equipment (Expensive stuff like Tanks, Howitzers, Small Arms, Anti-Tank Missile systems, Manpad Systems, APC's) and training is a testament to how messed up US foreign policy is. The "Free Syrian Army" has ceased to exist in reality, with even Al Nursa, and other jihadi groups pledging allegiance to ISIS. The US is now in an effective alliance with Iran and the Assad Government to protect the Yezidis and Kurds against a force that would not exist if they had just left Saddam alone, or had managed the reconstruction of Iraq better. Other American Allies like Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States and Turkey seem to be heavily involved in the logistics and financing of ISIS. It's total chaos and very difficult to try and discern exactly whose interests are being served, and what the end game is. Hamas also is clearly not benefiting the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, their policy of military aggression against an overwhelmingly more powerful nation simply does not work. Fatah in the West Bank is doing a lot better for the Palestinians any way you look at it. This is another complex and complicated issue however, somewhat tangential to the thread topic so I will leave it aside for a later discussion.

I believe the current Kiev Government, along with their support from NATO and the EU is the biggest obstacle to the normalization of Ukranian/Russian relations, and has been the biggest single force behind the current deterioration of relations we have seen. The maidan revolution was the overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych's government in February 2014 following the Euromaidan protests.

If I had to guess who shot down MH17, I would guess it was the pro-Russian rebels, however I will wait until the results of the investigation. I believe the most likely scenario is they either targeted the Ukrainian Su-25 fighter in the Area of MH17, or they believed it was some sort of military transport airplane, potentially an Antonov. It's possible they received the BUK AA system from Russia, but its also plausible they were able to raid Ukrainian military depots. Using looted equipment would actually explain why the rebels were unable to use proper targeting radars which would have picked up the civilian transponder in MH17, as potentially they do not have the required (2 radar systems accompany and work with each BUK missle system) radars or training/operators for effective operation. Without the appropriate radars to differentiate targets, and skilled operators to use them, these BUK systems will fire at any plane in the sky they set their targets on. The fact is the OSCE has stated there is no evidence of Russia providing military support for the pro-russian rebels, or of Russian soldiers crossing into the Ukraine. On the other hand, we in the west openly give financial and military support to the Kiev government.

With that said, the civilian deaths in MH17 represent a significant minority of the civilian casualties in the conflict overall. Even if you place the blame of MH17 solely on the rebels (The Ukrainians at least bear the responsibility for the bad decision to route planes over a war zone with active use of heavy SAM systems) the Government forces are almost definitely to blame for the majority of total civilian deaths caused from this conflict. The Government forces have been bombarding the breakaway regions virtually indiscriminately. Here is some first hand evidence.

Australian National TV report -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ea9AD3iHHc

Evidence of Civillian Tageting (Warning Dead bodies) http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=97f_1401379896

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=02b_1401135910

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4ba_1401717988

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0db_1399635819

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=85e_1405943816

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7c4_1404733056

There is loads more evidence, that took around 5 min to gather.

Aftermath of massacre of Pro-Russian Protestors in Odessa http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f0f_1399119582

Even the Original Maidan Protestors were outfitted with Guns/Molotovs/Bats/Other weapons. It was hardly a peaceful protest or revolution. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=34e_1392746107

[Argus]

I'll explain. The EU and NA are pushing back on China in Africa. African countries are shunning western support, mainly it seems because, even though the Chinese are doing the same, they are actually helping African communities instead of dosing them with vaccines and raping them for their resources, like the west currently does.

You get this from RT or some other nut site? The Chinese are doing exactly what the West is doing in Africa, which is trying to cut deals for raw resources at the lowest possible price. And yes, that involves bribery, and yes, that involves mistreating the locals. The only real difference is that China literally could not care less about what the local government does in terms of human rights violations (see Sudan).

As far as "helping African communities" aid from China is dwarfed by what comes from the West. Not sure what you mean about "instead of dosing them with vaccines" unless you're one of those anti-Vaccine kooks.

Everything else you've written is purely speculation, much of it apparently originating on conspiracy sites.

[On Guard for Thee]

There is a shortage of pork world wide and harper has been opening up new markets, things will be fine.

Leave it to Harper to know all about "pork"

[Argus]

Pretty much nowhere did I state we should suck up to dictators or stick our thumb in the eye of the Americans. That was a huge leap by you to put words in my mouth.

I don't see it that way. Countries across the West are condemning Russia and seeking ways to punish them and discourage them from further military adventures. You want us to stand out and make friends with the Russians instead? To refuse any sanctions? To refuse to condemn them? Why should we be so morally bankrupt?

If you have some other explanation than enforcing western hegemony for the the constant meddling in internal affairs, overthrowing of foreign governments, support of brutal dictators, arms trafficking to rebels/terrorists/dictators/monarchies(Saudis), flat out Invasion and decimation of countries by NATO/USA I would be interested in hearing it.

I'm not going to pretend all military actions taken by the West over the past have been altruistic. But I think motivations have become more pure as society has evolved. We're not going to invade or overthrow a country on behalf of the Dole company for example.

As far as "enforcing western hegemony" whatever that is (it sounds like something from a poli sci course) as far as I've seen of late all the West really wants is peace without crazies bombing them or slaughtering innocents. It's been a long time since Western countries invaded others simply to seize territory (see Ukraine). And unlike the Russians we at least generally try to discourage the 'brutal dictators' of the world where we can.

The last time the Russian army was in combat was Georgia? An action the EU official report blamed Georgia for.

Cite please.

Meanwhile Nato Drones and Planes are involved in Yemen/Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya/Pakistan/Somalia and possibly other places over the same time frame.

The difference being Muslim terrorists aren't trying to blow up buildings in Russia -- other than THEIR OWN Muslim terrorists, of course, who they keep neatly crushed under the heels of their military, having slaughtered untold numbers of them.

West = BAD! For using drones to kill hundreds of terrorists.

Russia = GOOD! For slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Chechins.

Nice balanced approach you got there, buddy.

If you blame Russia for the Ukrainian civil war I ask whether you consider the Maidan Revolution and the current Kiev government as wholly legitimate?

The current parliament was elected by the people of Ukraine. That pretty much makes them legitimate, yeah.

I further would ask your opinion of their indiscriminate shelling of Donetsk and Luhansk that have led to a massive humanitarian crisis in the region.

I've noticed that "humanitarian crisis" button being pushed by RT and Russian propaganda of late, as the Ukrainians start to close in on the last of the Russian troops ... excuse me, separatists... in the West. I regard it as a likely pretext the Russians will use to invade to 'protect the innocent'

What about the current government using the military to clear out demonstrations in Maidan Square against Poroshenko today and yesterday?

What about it? How many were killed? How many anti-Putin demonstrations in Russia were broken up by the police before all those who would organize them were relegated to prisons?

Have the South American countries embarrassed themselves in front of the world by not Sanctioning Russia?

Nobody expects South Americans to care about human rights violations. No one expects anything of South American countries but bluster, mismanagement and bankruptcy.

What about the African and Middle Eastern countries such as turkey? What about India?

We don't align ourselves with autocrats and dictators from the third world, but with the Western democracies.

Except you want us to change that for some reason...

Where was the Canadian Interest in destroying Libyan society, and fueling the fratricidal conflict which is tearing apart and bankrupting Ukraine?

Funny how there are always these cries from the bleeding heart set for us to help the people when tyrannies are attacking them. Yet when it goes wrong all those people disappear, whistling into the night, and then turn around and point the finger at the governments which did what they were asked. We helped overthrow a brutal dictator. Is it our fault the people there can't establish order?

As for Ukraine, 100% of the blame for that is on Russia. There was no violence there until Russia created it.

I implore you to answer these questions. In my view there is simply no Canadian interest other than making sure team Nato-USA wins again,

But it IS in our interests that Western democracies prevail. They are the only truly civilized nations on Earth. Siding with them is the obvious thing to do.