Racism or Secularism? Quebec looking to ban all religious garb.

[DogOnPorch]

I choose - "none of the above."

And with that, I am done with this. Now, if you have something of substance to say about my response rather than nitpickingly dwelling on my reference to Canada - I'm listening.

I know it's a bold statement to make: "Islam will dominate." But, it isn't mine...I can't take credit. It's Mohammed...and God. I know several posters don't take this seriously, but many very serious folks on this planet do.

What's interesting is the soft bigotry of low expectation...that an ideology such as Islam couldn't possibly dominate liberal democracies using their very own laws and political correctness to do so. That silly little corporal doesn't stand a chance vs the might of France. Where are today's Maginot Lines? Snicker...

Edited August 27, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[BubberMiley]

How can Islam take over if the gays are already taking over?

[bleeding heart]

I suggest you watch what you accuse me of. Try to respond to my comments instead of making it about me. Thanks in advance.

I accuse you of holding AC to a higher standard--on matters of demonstrated erroneous posts and admission of error (which you have yet to do.)

That's not a personal attack, no more than your (mistaken) assertion that I'd taken DoP's remarks out of "context."

But I appreciate your suggestion anyway.

[Guest American Woman]

I know it's a bold statement to make: "Islam will dominate." But, it isn't mine...I can't take credit. It's Mohammed...and God. I know several posters don't take this seriously, but many very serious folks on this planet do.

Agreed, and all of those people are not running scared nor do they think Muslims are scary. As I've said myself, it's not always numbers - but the deepness of one's convictions - that makes the difference. I would wager, for example, that the majority of Afghans don't agree with Islamic law as the Taliban is enforcing it.

What's interesting is the soft bigotry of low expectation...that an ideology such as Islam couldn't possibly dominate liberal democracies using their very own laws and political correctness to do so. That silly little corporal doesn't stand a chance vs the might of France. Where are today's Maginot Lines? Snicker...

I think the selective PC mindset that some chose to enforce has the potential of some day biting them in the behind. Edited August 27, 2013 by American Woman

[bleeding heart]

It's not a "PC mindset" that underlines my lack of fear of an Islamic takeover of Western civilization.

[DogOnPorch]

That's how it read to me.

I have to shake my head at all the "scary Muslim" and "screeching in fright" et al comments, as it seems those who resort to such responses are the ones actually resorting to histrionics.

You've made some valid points, and certainly not in fear, as I see it. It's an interesting topic of discussion, I think, as other religions do appear to be diminishing in numbers. Not so Islam.

Some branches of Christianity are in decline...or at least yo-yo-ing. Some are indeed on the rise like Evangelism and Creationism...which have some very dangerous ideas about science's value in society. Even though small in number next to the planet's population, they hold a lot of power and influence. Not to mention, if one wants to be President, God better be a factor in your life!

I guess the main difference in regards to Islam is that mainstream Christians don't believe God wrote the Bible...other than, I suppose, the red bits that were Jesus's apparent words. There's no central authority as such in Islam...so revision is going to be a challenge...if revision is even deemed needed by the faithful. Islam's main problem is that it isn't plural...or is only plural while in a position of weakness.

[BubberMiley]

It's not a "PC mindset" that underlines my lack of fear of an Islamic takeover of Western civilization.

That's just your opinion.

[Black Dog]

I know it's a bold statement to make: "Islam will dominate." But, it isn't mine...I can't take credit. It's Mohammed...and God. I know several posters don't take this seriously, but many very serious folks on this planet do.

Ah yes, the old appeal to authority.

What's interesting is the soft bigotry of low expectation...that an ideology such as Islam couldn't possibly dominate liberal democracies using their very own laws and political correctness to do so. That silly little corporal doesn't stand a chance vs the might of France. Where are today's Maginot Lines? Snicker...

You continue to duck the very important questions of "If Islam is going to dominate, the west, what will that look like and how will they achieve it?" When pressed, you bring up Detroit or some other red herring. And meantime you go out of your way to point out the evils that men do in Islam's name (but gosh no, you're not fearmongering at all!) It's just a bunch of bloviating and since you're unwilling or incapable of real discussion, there' s little point in taking what you say seriously. But again, top-notch trolling.

[Guest American Woman]

Some branches of Christianity are in decline...or at least yo-yo-ing. Some are indeed on the rise like Evangelism and Creationism...which have some very dangerous ideas about science's value in society. Even though small in number next to the planet's population, they hold a lot of power and influence. Not to mention, if one wants to be President, God better be a factor in your life!

I disagree regarding "if one wants to be President, God better be a factor in your life!" Romney came close to being president, and that would be in spite of his religious beliefs, not because of them. Also, many believed that Obama is a Muslim, yet he got the majority vote. I also don't see where Evangelists and Creationists "hold a lot of power;" they may make a lot of noise, they may try really hard to get their beliefs into law, but I don't see where they've got a majority who think differently than they do forced to uphold their standards. Furthermore, people aren't afraid to keep them in check, and I think that's the bottom line Big Difference.

I guess the main difference in regards to Islam is that mainstream Christians don't believe God wrote the Bible...other than, I suppose, the red bits that were Jesus's apparent words. There's no central authority as such in Islam...so revision is going to be a challenge...if revision is even deemed needed by the faithful. Islam's main problem is that it isn't plural...or is only plural while in a position of weakness.

I think one of the biggest problems re: Islam, too, is that Muslims aren't supposed to question Islamic faith.

[bleeding heart]

That's just your opinion.

You got me.

[bleeding heart]

Ah yes, the old appeal to authority.

And for that matter, there are no doubt "many serious people" who think the idea ludicrous.

You continue to duck the very important questions of "If Islam is going to dominate, the west, what will that look like and how will they achieve it?" When pressed, you bring up Detroit or some other red herring. And meantime you go out of your way to point out the evils that men do in Islam's name (but gosh no, you're not fearmongering at all!) It's just a bunch of bloviating and since you're unwilling or incapable of real discussion, there' s little point in taking what you say seriously. But again, top-notch trolling.

Of course it's not to be taken seriously. That's why a bare scattering here do so.

[DogOnPorch]

I disagree regarding "if one wants to be President, God better be a factor in your life!" Romney came close to being president, and that would be in spite of his religious beliefs, not because of them. Also, many believed that Obama is a Muslim, yet he got the majority vote. I also don't see where Evangelists and Creationists "hold a lot of power;" they may make a lot of noise, they may try really hard to get their beliefs into law, but I don't see where they've got a majority who think differently than they do forced to uphold their standards. Furthermore, people aren't afraid to keep them in check, and I think that's the bottom line Big Difference.

I think one of the biggest problems re: Islam, too, is that Muslims aren't supposed to question Islamic faith.

Get back to me when an atheists becomes President...lol. While Romney has magic shorts, he believes in what is ultimately an offshoot of Christianity. Even if many of us think it's dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb.

[Black Dog]

And for that matter, there are no doubt "many serious people" who think the idea ludicrous.

I'd wager many of the same serious people who promote the idea also find it ludicrous, but lucrative. It's hard to imagine that even a high school drop out like Mark Steyn takes seriously his own visions of a future where "Talibanic enforcers cruise Greenwich Village burning books and barber shops, the Supreme Court decides sharia law doesn't violate the "separation of church and state," and the Hollywood Left decides to give up on gay rights in favor of the much safer charms of polygamy."

Credit to them for knowing their marks, I guess.

[bleeding heart]

I'd wager many of the same serious people who promote the idea also find it ludicrous, but lucrative. It's hard to imagine that even a high school drop out like Mark Steyn takes seriously his own visions of a future where "Talibanic enforcers cruise Greenwich Village burning books and barber shops, the Supreme Court decides sharia law doesn't violate the "separation of church and state," and the Hollywood Left decides to give up on gay rights in favor of the much safer charms of polygamy."

Credit to them for knowing their marks, I guess.

Yeah, the provocations come so fast and ludicrous that it's hard to take seriously. But yes, some people really do.

[cybercoma]

Well legally there isn't. But there have been honour killings in Canada.

There have been. And there's Muslims that find it abhorrent. There have also been domestic homicides in Canada too, but we don't blame those on religion.

[carepov]

1. Islam does not dominate 1/4 of the planet. 21% of us humans are Muslim, but would you care to estimate how much power these 21% control (i.e. political clout, or control of financial, military, and other resources)? Certainly less than 10 % of the world's total.

2. Islam is growing at 2% per year, but Christianity is gaining more in absolute numbers than Islam. It is projected that by the 2050, Christians will make up 34% of our population and 25% will be Muslims. http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html

3. Not all Muslims think that "Sharia Law is jus' fine".

1. 21% soon to be 25%...one quarter of the population. Try driving your car w/o gasoline. The OIC regularly hits-up the UN to pass Blasphemy Laws on ALL member nations. Due to the large voting block in favour, it has a good chance of actually happening.

2. For every pack of statistics claiming Islam isn't a fast growing religion, there's another claiming that it is. File it under: seen it on the internet.

3. Irrelevant in an Islamic nation.

1. a)You ducked the question. How much world power is controlled by Islam? b.) 2050 is not "soon to be". c) Who says Islamic countries will stop selling oil? Even if, I can buy plenty of gas from non-Islamic oil or we can take over and steal it.

2. In my link there are multiple sources including Encyclopedia Britannica. The world growth rate is 2% - if you disagree, please show me a source that says otherwise.

3. Very relevant if we are talking about "Islam dominating the West". Western Muslims are more moderate and far less likely to think that "Sharia Law is just fine".

By the way, in what year do you foresee Canada becoming an Islamic Nation? And if you don't mind me asking, which nations do you foresee becoming Islamic in the next 5-10 years?

[DogOnPorch]

1. a)You ducked the question. How much world power is controlled by Islam? b.) 2050 is not "soon to be". c) Who says Islamic countries will stop selling oil? Even if, I can buy plenty of gas from non-Islamic oil or we can take over and steal it.

2. In my link there are multiple sources including Encyclopedia Britannica. The world growth rate is 2% - if you disagree, please show me a source that says otherwise.

3. Very relevant if we are talking about "Islam dominating the West". Western Muslims are more moderate and far less likely to think that "Sharia Law is just fine".

By the way, in what year do you foresee Canada becoming an Islamic Nation? And if you don't mind me asking, which nations do you foresee becoming Islamic in the next 5-10 years?

-Islamic countries control most of the oil. And nearly all of the easy to get oil. How's that wind-powered car coming? The OIC is a 57 nation voting block at the UN. Try and out-vote it.

-Islam is growing...not shrinking.

-2050 is a wink of an eye away...I'm also old enough to recall statistics from reliable sources that claimed birth control would ultimately keep the planet's population from reaching what it is today. Yeah...everyone took to birth control...not. As Clemens and/or D'Israeli said re: three types of lies...

-As mentioned before: Who can say re: when it will dominate? Islam is eternal for practical purposes. Mohammed said Islam will dominate all other religions. Mohammed is the Prophet of God...the Final Prophet of God.

[Black Dog]

-Islamic countries control most of the oil. And nearly all of the easy to get oil. How's that wind-powered car coming? The OIC is a 57 nation voting block at the UN. Try and out-vote it.

Canada has the world's second largest oil supply and is producing more and more every year. Dependence on Middle East oil is shrinking, not growing, as we relaize its not worth the hassle.

-Islam is growing...not shrinking.

-2050 is a wink of an eye away...I'm also old enough to recall statistics from reliable sources that claimed birth control would ultimately keep the planet's population from reaching what it is today. Yeah...everyone took to birth control...not. As Clemens and/or D'Israeli said re: three types of lies...

Hmmm. So you're saying demographic predictions can often fall well short of the mark?

[Guest American Woman]

Get back to me when an atheists becomes President...lol.

That's like saying that a black can't become PM of Canada because none ever has. By the same token, one could say that one has to be male if one wants to become president, and I doubt you believe that's true. Last but not least, until Obama was elected, using that line of reasoning, it could have been said that one had to be white to become president. But of course, that wasn't the case.

While Romney has magic shorts, he believes in what is ultimately an offshoot of Christianity. Even if many of us think it's dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb.

We don't know if Romney has magic shorts or not, since he refused to talk about his religious beliefs. With all of the different religious beliefs Americans have, I don't see religious beliefs getting a candidate elected.

Gallop shows that the majority of Americans would vote for an atheist for president.

[roy baty]

I guess the main difference in regards to Islam is that mainstream Christians don't believe God wrote the Bible...

I agree with a lot of what you are saying about Islam but where are you getting this from? We're not there yet. The only mainstream Christian church goers I know that don't believe the entire Bible is the inspired word of God through the hands and minds of his prophets are liberalized Christians who only choose to believe whatever is most convenient for them to believe to suit them, and discarding the rest. Other than that, most mainstream Christian churches indeed still believe that the Bible is the divine word of God just as Muslims believe the Quran is. How long that will go on depends on how fast mainstream Christianity liberalizes of course. In contrast, liberalization is a phenomenon that Islam is not experiencing.

As for you claiming that the world will be dominated by Islam because God and Mohammed said so is ONLY true if you believe the Quran is the true word of God. I say that it is not going to completely dominate, because I choose to believe what is in the Bible. What the Bible teaches is much different, it teaches that the world will be dominated by yet another final united European superpower strongly influenced by a warped version of Christianity/Catholicism for a short time before Christ's return. So according to the Bible, Islam will not dominate all religions but eventually fail just as will most warped or perhaps liberalized mainstream Christianity religions and others will be in the end. I believe biblical Christianity as I interpret it is the only ideology that offers most hope for humanity so I choose to believe it as the truth for my life. I suppose other religious followers and agnostics/atheists would disagree with me but it still doesn't change my beliefs.

So basically, what I am saying that what I believe/interpret above in the Bible would be no more true to a non-believer than what the Quran says will happen with Islam. It is ONLY true to those who believe what each book or ideology teaches. I think that's what people are missing here who are disagreeing with you so fervently. They don't believe what you say because they don't believe the Quran as the truth just as I don't. However I do understand where you are coming from for the most part. I personally believe that radical Islam will continue to grow to be even more of a global menace thanks in part to the growing Liberal (and IMO) blind PC mindset in a rapidly declining North America and before this European empire emerges out of our failure, Europe will become more conservative and perhaps even pass laws harsher than Quebec to deal with the growing Islamic trend that many in Europe already see happening. They will even outright someday exile or eliminate Islam from their empire and culture.

Anyhow, that's how I see it. Whether it's true or going to happen is all relative to what theology you choose to believe.

Edited August 28, 2013 by roy baty

[DogOnPorch]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying about Islam but where are you getting this from? We're not there yet. The only mainstream Christian church goers I know that don't believe the entire Bible is the inspired word of God through the hands and minds of his prophets are liberalized Christians who only choose to believe whatever is most convenient for them to believe to suit them, and discarding the rest. Other than that, most mainstream Christian churches indeed still believe that the Bible is the divine word of God just as Muslims believe the Quran is. How long that will go on depends on how fast mainstream Christianity liberalizes of course. In contrast, liberalization is phenomenon that Islam is not experiencing....cont.

Thanks for the detailed response. Sure there's a lot of Christians that are unaware of their Bible's own origin, but most mainstream Christian churches know that the Bible is a collection of various human writers (Moses on up...) and has gone through many revisions over the years. It also self-criticizes the sources, texts, historical context, etc. Islamic jurisprudence...or fiqh...is almost the complete opposite of that where everything is made to fit within the boundaries of what the Quran actually says (as revealed by the angel Gabriel to Mohammed over his life)...rather than what it could possibly allude to (et al). That is...a made-up example: if it says Mohammed kicked a camel when one of his wives was angry at him...that's what you do, too. A camel substitute won't work...lol. This is how Sharia Law was formulated. Islamic jurisprudence covers all aspects of life from fighting wars to keeping clean based on the Quran and the Hadiths.

As for Islam's eventual domination....certainly the passages involving domination are for the believers. The fifth Pillar of Islam...an unofficial* Pillar in Sunni Islam...is, after all...Jihad.

That's like saying that a black can't become PM of Canada because none ever has. By the same token, one could say that one has to be male if one wants to become president, and I doubt you believe that's true. Last but not least, until Obama was elected, using that line of reasoning, it could have been said that one had to be white to become president. But of course, that wasn't the case.

We don't know if Romney has magic shorts or not, since he refused to talk about his religious beliefs. With all of the different religious beliefs Americans have, I don't see religious beliefs getting a candidate elected.

Gallop shows that the majority of Americans would vote for an atheist for president.

I'm still dubious that I could carry Kansas by claiming I was an atheist. Time will tell, I suppose.

*There are plenty of Sunni suicide bombers...even though Jihad isn't one of the original Pillars of Sunni Islam.

Edited August 28, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[roy baty]

Time will tell, I suppose.

This is the truest and only statement in this thread that applies to everyone, believers and non-believers alike BTW.

[DogOnPorch]

Canada has the world's second largest oil supply and is producing more and more every year. Dependence on Middle East oil is shrinking, not growing, as we relaize its not worth the hassle.

Without tax incentives and an expensive upgrader process, that tar will remain in the sands. Middle East crude oil pours out of the ground.

[DogOnPorch]

This is the truest and only statement in this thread that applies to everyone, believers and non-believers alike BTW.

I don't claim to be a Spencer-like authority on Islamic jurisprudence...but it's interesting stuff. For example...diyya (blood money). If you kill a fellow Muslim you're going to pay (cash) through the nose. An atheist or Hindu man...hardly anything. A Hindu woman even less than that.

[Icebound]

I agree that a 'better idea' is needed. However, it is dubious that Islam...already perfect...will support a 'better idea'.

Hardcore self-appointed leaders may not, perhaps, But you need to check out some of the forums for ex-Muslims... You can start with the Council Of Ex Muslims..... dot com

I agree. We can't pick and choose when it comes to a person's religion. Banning elements of a certain faith would only drive it underground and breed resentment. If a nation is going to allow religious freedom, it has to go all the way; even if that religious freedom threatens current rights and freedoms held dear.

Not really true.

"Religious freedom" means that I do not harrass you because of your particular interpretation of afterlife. Or even because of your particular ceremonies that celebrate / commemorate your beliefs.

If you decide to take your self-flagellation parade down Yonge Street at Easter time, you must have exactly the same parade permits as any other parade. If the competing religion across the street wants to hold a self-flagellation parade of their own, we cannot discriminate against them and must allow them the same consideration as the previous.

BUT... if we are faced with 20 or 30 self-flagellation traffic shutdowns a year, and deem that might be detrimental to the city and society as a whole, then I submit that we are certainly within our rights to refuse permits to ALL such parades. And so if you want one, you can rent the Rogers Dome or Downsview Park or whatever, have your celebration there.... and I can't harrass you ...assuming you have all your health and safety ducks in a row.

So, to that extent, I submit that the state CAN (and SHOULD) curtail religious observances in certain circumstances...... but wearing a crucifix or a turban can hardly be deemed worthy of "detrimental to society" consideration.

To take that to a more extreme level, even in the privacy of a home, if someone claims that beating his wife is a religious requirement, the state certainly has the right to stop that.... just as it prosecutes "honour killings". THAT is a form of education that changes behaviour. I refer you back to that council of ex Muslims.

As for the argument that Islam suppresses women.... well you know what? lots of women even in non-muslim households are "suppressed", some willingly because it is a way to ensure food and safety... some by circumstance because they have nothing better.... some are just plain lazy to get away... and some are actively looking for a way out.

When we are able to talk to the 3rd generation descendants of Muslim ancestors in North America, that's when we will see how that is working out.

...