TTC Police Shooting

[gunrutz]

Your assertion that I want him "running around among the public" is assinine.

If he was actually attempting to kill someone, then shoot him. But, as the security expert and ex-T.O. cop says, they could have waited him out instead of being so eager to shoot him.

It's really easy to play armchair cop, but when things get heated and lives, even your own are at risk, its pretty tough to make the right decisions, its not as though most officers see this every day, most never do, i cant imagine what it is like, and likely nor can you, they arent perfect, and maybe like those rcmp at cyvr they screwed up big time. Lets just hope that the investigation finds some believable facts that either prove the officers correct or buries them for imcompetence, its likely somehwere in between, why is it that this has to be wrong for some of you? You probably do things in your job every day that other people wouldnt understand, and likely no one's life is at stake, let them investigate/explain before we condemn.

[GostHacked]

Usually eh? So how are the police to know if a person is not bleeding out on the floor of the streetcar?

In this case only one person was inside bleeding. Everyone else, as stated, left the streetcar. Who in their right mind would stay on if given an easy way out?

And if he decides to leave the perimeter, then what?

Hopefully the cop is not that out of shape, and could do a foot chase. Or block the doors of the streetcar with the cop cars.

Carrying a knife for self defense is illegal.

This is a strange stance coming from a person who loves his firearms and stands firmly on a thing like the 2nd Amendment in the USA, and the rights to own firearms in Canada.

Some knives are illegal. But the legal ones are just as deadly.

[Guest Derek L]

In this case only one person was inside bleeding. Everyone else, as stated, left the streetcar. Who in their right mind would stay on if given an easy way out?

Yes, we know that now, but did the officers responding late that night know?

Hopefully the cop is not that out of shape, and could do a foot chase. Or block the doors of the streetcar with the cop cars.

So the police should have allowed him to escape from the contained streetcar armed.........

As to blocking doors, I've never been on one of these cars, but I'd assume like most public transit, the windows are designed to be popped out in an emergency.........

This is a strange stance coming from a person who loves his firearms and stands firmly on a thing like the 2nd Amendment in the USA, and the rights to own firearms in Canada.

Some knives are illegal. But the legal ones are just as deadly.

That's the law though........I don't carry my firearms for self defense.........

But if I wielded a firearm, or even a replica/toy at police, I would expect a similar outcome as this case.

[On Guard for Thee]

This was a pocket knife with a 3 inch blade, not a firearm. I agree it's not the thing to do to pull it out on a TTC streetcar, or anywhere public. Obviously he was not acting properly, but he was alone, in a streetcar, noone else at risk. But 18 cops with firearms couldn't figure out how to deal with that? I guess some of them can't, the guy in Vanvouver was killed because he picked up a stapler and that seemed to be justification enough.
I wonder if it was Bostitch or a Swingline.

[Moonlight Graham]

Enhanced video and audio in HD of the incident. It's much clearer what happened:

TIMELINE OF VIDEO (mine):

1- Police start saying "drop the knife" while the kid holds out a knife

2- Someone (I presume the kid in the streetcar) keeps repeating (I presume to the cops) "you're a f**king p*ssy".

3- A cop pointing a gun says, according to National Post: "“If you take one step in this direction with that foot …[inaudible] die,” (kinda sounds like "I'll fucking kill you"). The kid is just standing in one spot mostly frozen at this point.

4- Another cop says "Drop the knife now...". The Cop from #3 says "Don't move".

5- The kid in the streetcar takes a few steps forward in the direction of the cops towards the stairs.

6- Cop reacts by shooting 3 times

7- 5 seconds later the cop(s) shoot 6 more times

8- Over the next 15 seconds most of the cops seem calmer & get ready to get on the streetcar, but then they appear to see something on the streetcar & back away suddenly and draw weapons again, and start yelling "Drop the knife!" 3 more times or so.

9- A cop goes into the streetcar and uses a taser on the kid (clearly audible). A cop is still yelling "drop the knife" as the taser is zapping the kid.

10- Several cops board the streetcar & secure the scene.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Moonlight Graham

[Guest Derek L]

Enhanced video and audio in HD of the incident. It's much clearer what happened:

TIMELINE OF VIDEO (mine):

1- Police start saying "drop the knife" while the kid holds out a knife

2- Someone (I presume the kid in the streetcar) keeps repeating (I presume to the cops) "you're a f**king p*ssy".

3- A cop pointing a gun says, according to National Post: "“If you take one step in this direction with that foot …[inaudible] die,” (kinda sounds like "I'll fucking kill you"). The kid is just standing in one spot mostly frozen at this point.

4- Another cop says "Drop the knife now...". The Cop from #3 says "Don't move".

5- The kid in the streetcar takes a few steps forward in the direction of the cops towards the stairs.

6- Cop reacts by shooting 3 times

7- 5 seconds later the cop(s) shoot 6 more times

8- Over the next 15 seconds most of the cops seem calmer & get ready to get on the streetcar, but then they appear to see something on the streetcar & back away suddenly and draw weapons again, and start yelling "Drop the knife!" 3 more times or so.

9- A cop goes into the streetcar and uses a taser on the kid (clearly audible). A cop is still yelling "drop the knife" as the taser is zapping the kid.

10- Several cops board the streetcar & secure the scene.

That's exactly how I see it..........perhaps if the young man had of dropped the knife and then moved towards officers there would be case against the police, but as is both visible and audible, after being shot at nine times, he still had the knife………….There’s no need for a Blue Wall conspiracy theory here….

[Moonlight Graham]

That's exactly how I see it..........perhaps if the young man had of dropped the knife and then moved towards officers there would be case against the police, but as is both visible and audible, after being shot at nine times, he still had the knife………….There’s no need for a Blue Wall conspiracy theory here….

Well, if things played out pretty much as they seemed in the video, I'd still argue the force may have been excessive. Why wasn't the taser used first, instead of last? That's my biggest question. In a situation like this, shooting the kid to kill is terribly unnecessary, there needs to be non-lethal options available here of some kind. Guns (and other lethal weapons) should only be used by cops as a measure of last resort if there is a threat of deadly force against them and non-lethal means won't work or are too risky to secure cop/public safety in a given situation

[dre]

Well the difference then is shooting him on the streetcar or shooting him on the streets with all sorts of people present……..as the video demonstrated, he started moving towards police outside of the streetcar before police shot him………pretty clear cut.

No its not clear cut at all... It seemed to me like the police kept shooting after this guy was no longer a threat. This death could have easily been avoided.

That doesnt mean its a criminal act or homocide. But its pretty damn clear at the very least that the police could have maintained a greater distance, and also stopped shooting earlier. Even if I was confronting this guy myself with a semi automatic firearm I could have easily spared his life. Even as an amateur I could have easily kneecapped him from 15 feet.

When 20 guys fill a guy with a 3" knife full of lead from 20 feet its not clear cut.

It IS probably a legal shooting though, as long as its shown the guy was advancing on the officers. Still totally needless.

[dre]

That's exactly how I see it..........perhaps if the young man had of dropped the knife and then moved towards officers there would be case against the police, but as is both visible and audible, after being shot at nine times, he still had the knife………….There’s no need for a Blue Wall conspiracy theory here….

Im not that frightened of a guy with a 3" knife thats been shot 5 times. I dont think its a blue wall conspiracy as much as a bunch of people using bad judgement needlessly.

And it calls into question how police are equipped and trained. If I had a perp contained in a bus and there was a dozen of me against him, Id want some tear gas grenades and or some non lethal bullets.

[Guest Derek L]

Well, if things played out pretty much as they seemed in the video, I'd still argue the force may have been excessive. Why wasn't the taser used first, instead of last? That's my biggest question. In a situation like this, shooting the kid to kill is terribly unnecessary, there needs to be non-lethal options available here of some kind. Guns (and other lethal weapons) should only be used by cops as a measure of last resort if there is a threat of deadly force against them and non-lethal means won't work or are too risky to secure cop/public safety in a given situation

Non-lethal means aren’t used by North American police forces when there is threat of “Death or Grievous bodily harm” to officers and/or the public, fore when a taser is deployed by police, the officer with the taser is covered by other officers with firearms. In this case, from the video, an officer would have to be situated between the armed officers and the young man to attempt to depoly the taser.

Also tasers require both contacts to imbed into the target to function……..Movies and tv aside, their operation isn’t simple as it looks, you couple this to this case and the requirement to hit the young man inside the streetcar from a “safe” range, sans armed officers providing cover behind the officer with the taser, and it’s very likely the taser wouldn’t have worked anyways……..In the video, look how close the officer that does deploy the taser has to get to the young man ……essentially at the foot of the stairs of the streetcar………

Maybe John Rambo might be willing to approach an armed man to within several feet, with the guy elevated above him to boot, and hope his non lethal taser would work and not hit a pole or handrail inside the streetcar, but no police officer can reasonably be expected to risk his or her life with such stunt.

Now if the young man was unarmed, by all means, use tasers, pepper spray or an Asp, but this was clearly not the case……..As such, I fail to see why the police should be required to put themselves in unnecessary danger to detain an armed, combative person………..This could have been resolved without any violence if he had “dropped the knife”.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

Im not that frightened of a guy with a 3" knife thats been shot 5 times. I dont think its a blue wall conspiracy as much as a bunch of people using bad judgement needlessly.

Has it been confirmed he was shot 5 times? None the less, you might not be afraid for your person, but no police officer or paramedic can be expected to help a still armed and combative person.

And it calls into question how police are equipped and trained. If I had a perp contained in a bus and there was a dozen of me against him, Id want some tear gas grenades and or some non lethal bullets.

That's just it though, the young man was both heading towards officers and the door when he was shot, hence attempting to break out of the "contained environment"........

[Black Dog]

That's exactly how I see it..........perhaps if the young man had of dropped the knife and then moved towards officers there would be case against the police, but as is both visible and audible, after being shot at nine times, he still had the knife………….There’s no need for a Blue Wall conspiracy theory here….

The video makes it clear that at no point were any of the cops in immediate danger. The victim wasn't even at the doors of the streetcar when the first volley of shots went out.

[Boges]

People who defend this cop are just using hypotheticals to make their point. Perhaps he was this, perhaps he was that. Perhaps he had a concealed Uzi, perhaps he was a vampire.

What we know for sure though is he was isolated in a streetcar and shot multiple times and tazed. The cop that did the shooting (indicating only one guy took all those shots) has been suspended. I read this morning that a suspension like that is rather rare. So it doesn't look good for the cop in question.

That being said this kid seems to be getting the Trayvon Martin treatment. We need justice for Sammy? Really? There was a massive protest in Toronto yesterday with the same type of people that felt Darcy Allan Shepperd (The cyclist who decided to pick a fight with a former politician in a car and ended up dead because of it) somehow didn't have a major role in his fate were out in full force.

Though I believe the cops overreached I do believe this kid could have easily avoided his fate. You can be outraged by how the police reacted but don't act like innocence was last early last Saturday morning.

[Black Dog]

People who defend this cop are just using hypotheticals to make their point. Perhaps he was this, perhaps he was that. Perhaps he had a concealed Uzi, perhaps he was a vampire.

What we know for sure though is he was isolated in a streetcar and shot multiple times and tazed. The cop that did the shooting (indicating only one guy took all those shots) has been suspended. I read this morning that a suspension like that is rather rare. So it doesn't look good for the cop in question.

That being said this kid seems to be getting the Trayvon Martin treatment. We need justice for Sammy? Really? There was a massive protest in Toronto yesterday with the same type of people that felt Darcy Allan Shepperd (The cyclist who decided to pick a fight with a former politician in a car and ended up dead because of it) somehow didn't have a major role in his fate were out in full force.

Though I believe the cops overreached I do believe this kid could have easily avoided his fate. You can be outraged by how the police reacted but don't act like innocence was last early last Saturday morning.

We don't know what was going on with the kid, if he was on drugs or having a psychotic break. He didn't seem to pose any danger (he had ample opportunity to do damage when the streetcar was full). These are important questions. And regardless of his part in the events, if the cops (cop) fucked up, that's on them

[Boges]

I'm sure dude's Facebook page will be used against him.

http://i.imgur.com/UnIyw3gh.png

[Boges]

We don't know what was going on with the kid, if he was on drugs or having a psychotic break. He didn't seem to pose any danger (he had ample opportunity to do damage when the streetcar was full). These are important questions. And regardless of his part in the events, if the cops (cop) fucked up, that's on them

Sure and we should hold off definitive judgement until more evidence is made public, if it ever does. But it seems lots of judgement is going on from both sides of the debate.

[Black Dog]

Sure and we should hold off definitive judgement until more evidence is made public, if it ever does. But it seems lots of judgement is going on from both sides of the debate.

The shooting took place roughly two minutes after the cops arrived on the seen. No attempt was made to engage the kid or call in specialized personnel to deal with the situation. From the video, it's pretty hard to argue with the assessment that this was a comply-or-die scenario. We'll never know what was going through Yatim's head and I doubt we ever get any answers from the TPS.

[Topaz]

Maybe these gun happy shooters should join the Army and then they can go over to the Middle-East, where NATO is fighting and shot people all they want! IF this goies to trial, I don't know where they go for a jury because most of Canada has seen it and I heard there's about 20 people who saw it all happen.

[Argus]

You’re very right that the video wasn’t conclusive……

Two more videos have surfaced, and they ARE entirely conclusive.

Three shots were fired into him even though he was up on the bus. No attempt was made to contain him, to close the doors, to talk to him. And the third video to emerge clearly shows the first three shots brought him down. There is a pause as the officer shifts position, then six more shots are fired into him as he lays on the floor of the streetcar.

I cannot imagine what excuse the officer could give other than he blacked out and had no idea where he was or what he was doing.

Now aside from the ranting’s about the authority of police not be “respected”, what are other reasons as to why the police would shoot someone? Two reasons, the suspect is a threat to the public and/or police…..Do we know what the suspect was saying to the passengers of the trolley? Or Police for that mater? Could he have claimed to have a gun or a bomb for example?

You left out the most obvious reason: police incompetence.

[Argus]

It's really easy to play armchair cop, but when things get heated and lives, even your own are at risk, its pretty tough to make the right decisions, its not as though most officers see this every day, most never do, i cant imagine what it is like, and likely nor can

Excuse me? You just shot a guy three times. He's laying on the floor of a streetcar while you're outside. He has a 3 inch knife in his hand and no one within reach. If your decision is to move a little to get a better angle and then shoot him six more times you have no business dealing with the public, much less being armed while doing so.

[Argus]

That's just it though, the young man was both heading towards officers and the door when he was shot, hence attempting to break out of the "contained environment"........

In fact, if you watch the video, you'll see he starts out much nearer the doors, then moves back further into the car. He is still visible in the window of the streetcar, making no quick movements forward when the cop starts shooting.

[DogOnPorch]

My reaction was...

*Bang*

Me: "Oh...they got him."

***Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang***

Me: "WTF???"

[Guest American Woman]

This is an interesting editorial and answers my question of "why so many shots fired?" http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/editorials/a-knife-wielding-teenager-and-standard-police-training/article13486676/

The firing of nine shots is concerning, but there are things to consider. Officers who have made the split-second decision to use lethal force will rarely fire a single shot. This is because the average police-issue sidearm will hit a target that is between six and 21 feet away less than 25 per cent of the time, according to New York Police Department statistics that were analyzed by The New York Times in 2007. Police sidearms are chosen for their reliability, not their accuracy. Even at a range of six feet or less, the accuracy rate is below 50 per cent. Officers are consequently trained only to stop an armed person from advancing; there is no gain in attempting to inflict a wound, and the officer will continue to fire until he or she is certain the armed person no longer poses a threat.

The nine shots fired by the Toronto officer, so vividly recorded, seem like a ghastly number. But there is sufficient reason to believe the officer was responding within the bounds of his training and duties.

This sums it up perfectly: "....the public should not overreact to the images seen on the Internet before all the facts are known."

Edited July 30, 2013 by American Woman

[Boges]

Yeah but after the first 3 shots he stopped for 5 seconds! Meaning he must have achieved his objective of neutralizing the target.

Most reasonable people think the additional 6 shots were overkill as if the cop was enraged or something.

[Guest American Woman]

The shooting took place roughly two minutes after the cops arrived on the seen.

How do you know how long the cops had been at the scene before shots were fired?