TTC Police Shooting

[On Guard for Thee]

Obviously the Toronto Plice should be brought back into the classroom and be shown what can be done. I refer to the recent situation in Montreal where after a 20 hour standoff a man holed up in a house who had a lot more fire power than a 3 inch toad sticker was brought alive. They handled the situation proffessionaly and intelligently and will recieve kudos for it while TO cops get a serious black eye and lose public support.

Edited August 3, 2013 by On Guard for Thee

[dre]

Obviously the Toronto Plice should be brought back into the classroom and be shown what can be done. I refer to the recent situation in Montreal where after a 20 hour standoff a man holed up in a house who had a lot more fire power than a 3 inch toad sticker was brought alive. They handled the situation proffessionaly and intelligently and will recieve kudos for it while TO cops get a serious black eye and lose public support.

Well it sounds like most of the TO cops did the right thing too... One nut just went off.

[ReeferMadness]

Bookmark this thread, then in 6-8 months, maybe a year, once the investigation is complete, we'll see who's interpretation of the nights events are more synchronized with the eventual investigated findings.

No, we won't. What we'll see is a big charade where a bunch of lawyers protect a bunch of established interests. And then someone may get slapped on the wrist or maybe not. There will be no truth coming out. There will be no justice. Nothing will change. How do I know? That's what happens with EVERY inquiry involving the conduct of the police. The trigger-happy yahoo who fired 9 times, 6 of them after this poor guy was lying on his back, will have a lawyer, paid for by the citizens of Toronto. Who will speak for Sammy?

They've already announced that the moron who used the taser isn't even under investigation. This guy either tasered a dead body or tortured someone who was taking his dying breath.

[ReeferMadness]

A late-breaking update:

link

“We made an honest mistake,” said Police Chief Bill Blair. “The first three bullets were critical to our strategy of disarming the three-inch knife-holder before he could exit the empty streetcar, and the next five were required to ensure we could safely enter and safely taser the likely dead man. But, admittedly we could have skipped the ninth bullet.”

[Guest American Woman]

A late-breaking update:

link

You do realize that's satire, right?

[Guest American Woman]

Exactly........I cant think of any part of my body getting spiked with a 3 knife that Id laugh offAnd even with police body armour, a 3 stick to parts of the neck, groin, armpit etc can be fatal in minutes

I use a 3 1/2" knife for gutting large game......

A sharp 3 1/2" blade could do a lot of damage. One only needs to look at what was accomplished with box cutters on 9-11, and I don't really know my weapons, but are box cutters considered more dangerous than a 3 1/2" knife?

The video doesn't look good - that much I will admit to. But what's the old saying? Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see. Something like that. We aren't privy to what the cop who shot saw - he may have seen something that he perceived as threatening, and of course they didn't know if the knife was the only weapon he had, right? It's hard to know since the police can't give any information out at all. This cop was on the force for 6 years without incident, so it would appear that he's not "trigger happy" the way he's being made out to be, the way all police are basically being made out to be.

The biggest problem I have, however, is all the judging of this cop personally; all of the claims of 'why he did it.' No one here knows this cop and no one can get inside his head. That doesn't stop all the judging and damning claims, however. If the same standard of judgement were to be applied to others, to other 'wholes,' the outrage from this same group would be palpable.

I'm not saying he didn't do the wrong thing. He very well could have. But even if he did, if he did make a mistake, that doesn't mean he's all the horrible things people are saying about him.

Within the "PC crowd," it's perfectly acceptable to be anything but regarding certain people/groups et al; anything goes.

[Argus]

Exactly........I can’t think of any part of my body getting spiked with a 3” knife that I’d laugh off………And even with police body armour, a 3” stick to parts of the neck, groin, armpit etc can be fatal in minutes……

I use a 3 1/2" knife for gutting large game......

While it's moving? Give us a break in your relentless defense of anything and everything police do. This guy totally screwed up.

Admit that and maybe people will take what you write seriously.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Argus

[Guest Derek L]

A sharp 3 1/2" blade could do a lot of damage. One only needs to look at what was accomplished with box cutters on 9-11, and I don't really know my weapons, but are box cutters considered more dangerous than a 3 1/2" knife?

The video doesn't look good - that much I will admit to. But what's the old saying? Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see. Something like that. We aren't privy to what the cop who shot saw - he may have seen something that he perceived as threatening, and of course they didn't know if the knife was the only weapon he had, right? It's hard to know since the police can't give any information out at all. This cop was on the force for 6 years without incident, so it would appear that he's not "trigger happy" the way he's being made out to be, the way all police are basically being made out to be.

That’s exactly it AW, a knife in the hands of a dangerous person can be a devastating tool……..Why do Corrections officers wear shank proof vests? It’s certainly not to defend against prisoners fashioning a Marine style K-Bar, but crude weapons fashioned from pens, forks, bed springs and razors etc…….A suggestion that a 3” knife poses no threat is completely asinine.

As to guilt & facts, like I’ve said from the get-go, obviously more needs to be released, be it through CCTV footage and/or witness testimony etc………With that said, from the information available, as I qualified numerous times, in my opinion, the officer will be cleared.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Derek L

[bleeding heart]

Within the "PC crowd," it's perfectly acceptable to be anything but regarding certain people/groups et al; anything goes.

What does any of this have to do with "political correctness"?

[ReeferMadness]

You do realize that's satire, right?

Yah, I got that. But it's satire that reflects the way a lot of people are seeing this.

[ReeferMadness]

The biggest problem I have, however, is all the judging of this cop personally; all of the claims of 'why he did it.' No one here knows this cop and no one can get inside his head. That doesn't stop all the judging and damning claims, however. If the same standard of judgement were to be applied to others, to other 'wholes,' the outrage from this same group would be palpable.

Really? Your biggest problem is that people are saying not nice things about this guy? Really???

This cop is now sitting at home on full pay. He will hav a lawyer paid for by the fine citizens of Toronto justifying his actions. If he didn't have good reasons, that's OK - his highly paid lawyer will make some up.

Meanwhile, the guy he shot 9 times is dead. So, would you rather have people say bad things about you or would you rather have a trigger-happy cop shoot you to death? And then taser you while you draw your last breaths?

[ReeferMadness]

Well it sounds like most of the TO cops did the right thing too... One nut just went off.

And all of the other nuts are now crowding around to defend him.

[Guest American Woman]

Really? Your biggest problem is that people are saying not nice things about this guy? Really???

You do realize that there's a difference between saying things that aren't nice and making claims that they know nothing about, right? But since I was speaking of the judgments/verdicts being made without all the evidence, yes. That's my biggest problem with what people are doing.

This cop is now sitting at home on full pay. He will hav a lawyer paid for by the fine citizens of Toronto justifying his actions. If he didn't have good reasons, that's OK - his highly paid lawyer will make some up.

Perfect example of what I'm speaking of.

Meanwhile, the guy he shot 9 times is dead. So, would you rather have people say bad things about you or would you rather have a trigger-happy cop shoot you to death? And then taser you while you draw your last breaths?

And again you provide a perfect example of what I am speaking of.

[On Guard for Thee]

I read now that there where in fact 25 police on the scend. 25 fully armed cops up against a teenager in an empty streetcar with a 3 inch jacknife blade, and the best solution they could come up with, after 6 minutes or so, was to kill him. I wonder what kind of fantasyland excuse they will attempt to shove down our throats after that, and how many dolts will buy it.

[Argus]

That’s exactly it AW, a knife in the hands of a dangerous person can be a devastating tool……..Why do Corrections officers wear shank proof vests? It’s certainly not to defend against prisoners fashioning a Marine style K-Bar, but crude weapons fashioned from pens, forks, bed springs and razors etc…….A suggestion that a 3” knife poses no threat is completely asinine.

So if you and four or five of your friends are standing on a corner, and some little teenager with a 3 inch pocket knife comes up and orders you all to hand over your wallets, you're going to do it, right?

[Guest American Woman]

So if you and four or five of your friends are standing on a corner, and some little teenager with a 3 inch pocket knife comes up and orders you all to hand over your wallets, you're going to do it, right?

If you think one of you couldn't get stabbed in the process of "not handing over your money," I think you're sadly mistaken and the police aren't obligated to put themselves in the position of being stabbed/hurt. Furthermore, a sharp blade is a sharp blade regardless of the size. As I pointed out, there was a lot of damage done with box cutters on 9-11. How big a blade do you think the box cutters had? Why do you think some police officers wear "stab vests?"

A couple of examples of police officers being hurt by knives:

A man has been arrested on suspicion of attempted murder after four policemen were injured in a knife attack in northwest London. Two of the officers, both in their 20s, were seriously hurt. One was stabbed in the stomach while another sustained knife injuries to his head and arm.

https://www.peninsulafcu.com/

Two police officers were injured after being knifed by a man in Greater Manchester. They were wounded as they dealt with a dispute between neighbours at about 18:45 BST on Tuesday in Stamford Street, Old Trafford.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22362747

[Argus]

If you think one of you couldn't get stabbed in the process of "not handing over your money," I think you're sadly mistaken

I think the risk would be pretty minimal, even without the vests cops have. He's got one hand with a little knife. We've got ten hands to grab his arm. I wouldn't be unduly worried. Do you want me to add in that we all have clubs? I believe the cops all have batons, right?

[Guest American Woman]

I think the risk would be pretty minimal, even without the vests cops have. He's got one hand with a little knife. We've got ten hands to grab his arm. I wouldn't be unduly worried. Do you want me to add in that we all have clubs? I believe the cops all have batons, right?

I gave examples where as many as four police officers were hurt by one man with a knife, while your scenario is imaginary. Did you see any officers holding batons in the video? And

"When it comes to an edged weapons attack, size really doesn’t matter, ...."

http://policelink.monster.com/training/articles/147466-edged-weapons-101-the-armed-offender

[Argus]

I gave examples where as many as four police officers were hurt by one man with a knife, while your scenario is imaginary. Did you see any officers holding batons in the video? And

"When it comes to an edged weapons attack, size really doesn’t matter, ...."

http://policelink.monster.com/training/articles/147466-edged-weapons-101-the-armed-offender

Most police hurt in knife attacks are taken by surprise. That wasn't the case here. And size DOES matter.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Argus

[Guest American Woman]

Most police hurt in knife attacks are taken by surprise. That wasn't the case here. And size DOES matter.

I'll take the word of those who have actual experience and I'll take actual evidence as proof.

Edited August 4, 2013 by American Woman

[GostHacked]

If you think one of you couldn't get stabbed in the process of "not handing over your money," I think you're sadly mistaken and the police aren't obligated to put themselves in the position of being stabbed/hurt. Furthermore, a sharp blade is a sharp blade regardless of the size. As I pointed out, there was a lot of damage done with box cutters on 9-11. How big a blade do you think the box cutters had? Why do you think some police officers wear "stab vests?"

There box cutters did not do any damage. However, four large airplanes sure made a mess. I work with box cutters all the time.... and depending on the style of box cutter, most can cause damage, but unless used on the neck , very little chance of a critical injury. Box cutters don't scare me, most of the people I work with carry them as a tool for their job.

Also some box cutters would still make it on planes with the new updated restrictions for knives as many are only about an inch long.

[Guest American Woman]

There box cutters did not do any damage. However, four large airplanes sure made a mess. I work with box cutters all the time.... and depending on the style of box cutter, most can cause damage, but unless used on the neck , very little chance of a critical injury. Box cutters don't scare me, most of the people I work with carry them as a tool for their job.

I would assume that the people you work with aren't crazed and/or killers. As for the four large airplanes, how do you think the terrorists managed to gain and keep control of them? You think the terrorists were unarmed, just made demands, and everyone went along with it? Edited August 4, 2013 by American Woman

[Guest Derek L]

And some witnesses that were on the Streetcar:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/08/04/sammy_yatim_what_happened_in_the_words_of_witnesses.html

Garcia: I heard a scream. A very horrible scream where someone needed help and she was asking for help. I saw his genitals out in one hand and then I saw, I think, a knife in the other hand. That’s when I panicked.

What a lovely young man.....

Yatim says “Nobody get off the f--king streetcar,” according to Li-Hill, and begins slowly advancing toward the front of the streetcar.

So did he try to take hostages?

Doyle: As he walked by me I noticed he didn’t have a gun, he had a knife in his right hand. The blade was about four inches long and it was about an inch wide. And he actually had his penis out in his left hand. He walked right by me and didn’t pay me any attention, thankfully.

Just a pocket knife eh?

Here's a 4" x 1" knife used to skin and gut animals:

Li-Hill: Just before I got off the streetcar I heard him say, “Everybody get off the f--king streetcar.” That, to me, was this odd moment where he was switching everything around. He may be in a moment of a loss of control. I was like “We should get out of here, let’s go. We escaped with our lives let’s get out of here.” So we walked up the street.

So he told everyone to leave, after they had already left......makes sense.

(One girl) grabbed her phone, and she was crying hysterically. She told the police to come because there was an incident on the streetcar, she said, “A man tried to kill me.”

And what might be the reaction of officers when the 911 operator tells them a gaggle of teenage girls have called in with a nut on a streetcar that tried to kill them........

Li-Hill: Not even four houses down, 20 seconds (after leaving the streetcar), I just hear a huge mass of sirens.

Rather quick response by police.....

Li-Hill: I remember thinking to myself, “Wow, this situation must have really escalated fast.” My whole idea in my head was that the streetcar driver was still on there, that Sammy had attacked him, this was the police officer’s only option. But then I thought to myself, he seemed very crazed, if police tell him to drop a weapon and he doesn’t drop a weapon I know that they would probably shoot him.

I’ll predict the investigation is less than a year and the officer is cleared.........crazy guy with a knife and his dink out threatens teenagers on public transit, is told to drop weapon by police, he advances towards police (as shown in the videos) and an officer drops him.....case closed.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Derek L

[Icebound]

I’ll predict the investigation is less than a year and the officer is cleared.........crazy guy with a knife and his dink out threatens teenagers on public transit, is told to drop weapon by police, he advances towards police (as shown in the videos) and an officer drops him.....case closed.

A year? How about a month? After all, the crime scene was not secured immediately and totally contaminated, so does not that always give the benefit of doubt to the accused??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsJWId4HU7I

...

[Guest Derek L]

A year? How about a month? After all, the crime scene was not secured immediately and totally contaminated, so does not that always give the benefit of doubt to the accused??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsJWId4HU7I

...

It’s a moot point in this case……..the only evidence that could be construed as being tampered with is the nine .40 S&W casings on the street, but in this case, there is no ambivalence from the Toronto police on the number of shots fired or from what gun……….No need for a Warren Commission here……