TTC Police Shooting

[Black Dog]

Yeah seconds away, and advancing towards officers with a knife.

He'd have to have superhuman speed to get down those steps and at the cops; they are very steep.

Here's the other thing I don't get: they could have easily sealed him into the streetcar (there are switches on the outside of the vehicles that close the doors) and just waited him out. Pretty clear case of an overzealous, trigger happy cop. Of course he'll be cleared because the pigs always protect their own.

[Guest Derek L]

He'd have to have superhuman speed to get down those steps and at the cops; they are very steep.

Here's the other thing I don't get: they could have easily sealed him into the streetcar (there are switches on the outside of the vehicles that close the doors) and just waited him out. Pretty clear case of an overzealous, trigger happy cop. Of course he'll be cleared because the pigs always protect their own.

Where are the switches? I've seen switches like that on other buses and they're located next to the front door.........a few feet from the guy with the knife in this case.......are police in Toronto trained in the operation of transit equipment?

[Black Dog]

Where are the switches? I've seen switches like that on other buses and they're located next to the front door.........a few feet from the guy with the knife in this case.......are police in Toronto trained in the operation of transit equipment?

Regardless, the threat was pretty much contained. It's an incredibly narrow doorway and the stairs are quite steep. What is abundantly clear from the video was there was no imminent danger to the officers. If there was, one wonders why so many of the cops didn't even have their weapons drawn.

[Guest American Woman]

It's interesting, I think, that apparently only one officer fired all of the shots. Why did one officer feel compelled to shoot - and so many times? Will be interesting to find out more details about this shooting.

In regards to the comments that 'cameras equal accountability,' it seems to me that cameras on the scene often result in judging, as if everyone knows exactly all that went on simply by viewing a few minutes of video.

Chances are the officer who shot was in the wrong - it certainly looks and sounds that way, but we certainly don't know all of the facts at this time, either.

[Guest Derek L]

Regardless, the threat was pretty much contained. It's an incredibly narrow doorway and the stairs are quite steep. What is abundantly clear from the video was there was no imminent danger to the officers. If there was, one wonders why so many of the cops didn't even have their weapons drawn.

Contained? It was contained well he was inside the trolley, when he started advancing towards officers, outside of the trolley, it was no longer contained.........The other fact not mentioned, he's sitting inside a 50k lbs streetcar.......I've never been aboard one, but I wouldn't expect their operation is as complex as the Space Shuttle.......in your view, would officers have been justified shooting him if he started tootling off in it?

At the end of the day, you advance towards a police officer yelling and screaming with knife, what did you think was going to happen?

One could ask, why didn't he just "drop the knife"?

[Guest Derek L]

It's interesting, I think, that apparently only one officer fired all of the shots. Why did one officer feel compelled to shoot - and so many times? Will be interesting to find out more details about this shooting.

In regards to the comments that 'cameras equal accountability,' it seems to me that cameras on the scene often result in judging, as if everyone knows exactly all that went on simply by viewing a few minutes of video.

Chances are the officer who shot was in the wrong - it certainly looks and sounds that way, but we certainly don't know all of the facts at this time, either.

I don't know about that.......when the shots rung out, two officers had their guns drawn and aimed......I suppose that will all come out.

[Guest American Woman]

I don't know about that.......when the shots rung out, two officers had their guns drawn and aimed......I suppose that will all come out.

Just one officer fired the shots.

The officer identified as the shooter in the death of a Toronto teen on a streetcar Saturday has been suspended. Toronto Police Association president Mike McCormack confirmed that the officer has been suspended with pay until investigations into the shooting are completed. A police union representative says the officer is “devastated” and overwhelmed by the magnitude of what happened.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto-police-chief-to-speak-to-media-about-ttc-shooting-on-monday-morning/article13476777/

Edited July 29, 2013 by American Woman

[Guest Derek L]

The officer identified as the shooter in the death of a Toronto teen on a streetcar Saturday has been suspended. Toronto Police Association president Mike McCormack confirmed that the officer has been suspended with pay until investigations into the shooting are completed. A police union representative says the officer is “devastated” and overwhelmed by the magnitude of what happened.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto-police-chief-to-speak-to-media-about-ttc-shooting-on-monday-morning/article13476777/

Well there you go...

[Moonlight Graham]

Pretty clear case of an overzealous, trigger happy cop.

Are you sure you have all the facts in this case to make such a judgement?

[Guest American Woman]

Are you sure you have all the facts in this case to make such a judgement?

Considering there's going to be an intense investigation, it always amazes me how easy it is for some to draw conclusions with so very little information. Even if it's found that the cop was in the wrong, it doesn't mean he shot because he was "an overzealous, trigger happy cop." People do make mistakes, misread things, do the wrong thing - and it's not always because they are a bad person. I think there must be times when it's very difficult for police officers to make the judgement call of whether or not to shoot. I'm not saying that that's the case here because I don't know, but when the results of the investigation finally do come out - and of course the police cannot give out any information prior - it will be interesting to find out why this one cop felt not only compelled to shoot, but to shoot so many times. I wonder where he was in relation to the victim - how close he was, etc. I also wonder why an 18 year old with no history of mental illness or violence would do what he did - and not drop the knife when several armed police officers are giving him the order to do so.

As for how quick it is to disembark a street car, it would hardly take Super Man's powers to take the steps quickly. One could jump out, charge an officer that way, for that matter. There's only three steps. So did this officer feel threatened?

We don't know what went on inside his head.

[GostHacked]

I would refine my estimate that the knife wielding man was less than 20ft from the officers, a distance that could be covered in less than 5 seconds..........and from this video, the young man is standing well shots were first fired

So why did the cops get so close for them to find themselves in the danger zone? Step back, set up a perimeter, grab a coffee, wait him out. This is going to get a cop killed as well as the 'perp'.

[Guest Derek L]

Considering there's going to be an intense investigation, it always amazes me how easy it is for some to draw conclusions with so very little information. Even if it's found that the cop was in the wrong, it doesn't mean he shot because he was "an overzealous, trigger happy cop." People do make mistakes, misread things, do the wrong thing - and it's not always because they are a bad person. I think there must be times when it's very difficult for police officers to make the judgement call of whether or not to shoot. I'm not saying that that's the case here because I don't know, but when the results of the investigation finally do come out - and of course the police cannot give out any information prior - it will be interesting to find out why this one cop felt not only compelled to shoot, but to shoot so many times. I wonder where he was in relation to the victim - how close he was, etc. I also wonder why an 18 year old with no history of mental illness or violence would do what he did - and not drop the knife when several armed police officers are giving him the order to do so.

As for how quick it is to disembark a street car, it would hardly take Super Man's powers to take the steps quickly. One could jump out, charge an officer that way, for that matter. There's only three steps. So did this officer feel threatened?

We don't know what went on inside his head.

All good points AW, if you watch the second video I posted a few pages back, you can see two officers with guns drawn ~20 feet from the young man...

Prior to the shots fired, the man takes a few steps back into the trolley, roughly behind and to the left of the drivers seat, then he starts advancing towards the officers, then the shots are fired.

Now in my view, the angle of the shot would be difficult if you consider that the two officers are to the front left of the streetcar, coupled with it being nighttime with the flashing police car lights, the young man is advancing in not a straight line and he's carrying a knife.........All things detracting from the officers aim.

I would suspect that though 9 shots were fired in total, not all 9 hit their intended target........I suppose more details will come out with the investigation.

[dre]

Doesnt look good for the cops IMO. Comply or die!

[On Guard for Thee]

On the one hand, I would say thank God there is a video that may eventually aid in getting a trigger happy cop off the streests before he kills again, but don't hold your breath. The first of the 4 RCMP who tazzered that Polish immigrant Dziekansky to death at YVR has been let off, and the video there is self explanatory.

We need cops for sure, but it looks like we need to start screening applicants better.

Pardon me for mashing the quote, but Plato once said something about people wanting power tend to be unsuited to weild it.

[Guest Derek L]

ok.

Bellwoods is a long street full of trees w full leaves. At midnight too.

I just Google Mapped 920 Dundas st W & Bellwoods ave.......if one puts themselves in front of the Spa with the green awning, where the police with the guns drawn are, facing roughly East like the police, their backdrop is rows of three story homes with ground level storefronts (in Google street view, one is a laundromat).........

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=920+Dundas+Street+West,+near+Trinity+Bellwoods,&hl=en&ll=43.650926,-79.412811&spn=0.000572,0.000862&sll=43.652154,-79.409094&sspn=0.004572,0.006899&t=h&hnear=920+Dundas+St+W,+Toronto,+Ontario+M6J+1W3&z=20&layer=c&cbll=43.650926,-79.412811&panoid=udS6p-PpV2wkDgkevSxquQ&cbp=12,122.18,,0,2.8

[Guest Derek L]

So why did the cops get so close for them to find themselves in the danger zone? Step back, set up a perimeter, grab a coffee, wait him out. This is going to get a cop killed as well as the 'perp'.

When the officers responded, how are they to know if nobody else is on the streetcar? Take the guy with the knife's word?

As to a perimeter, it's in a residential area, if the guy bolts from the streetcar and buggers off, then what? In your view, would the police be justified in shooting him if he attempted to leave their perimeter armed?

Now my question, if it's true that the young man was an upstanding citizen (as portrayed by his family and friends), that doesn't suffer from mental illness and respects authority, why was he carrying a knife with him on transit? Also, why would he expose himself to the other passengers, then brandish his knife at police officers? Doesn't sound like the sort I'd want my daughter coming home with....

[The_Squid]

When the officers responded, how are they to know if nobody else is on the streetcar? Take the guy with the knife's word?

Ask others on the bus?

As to a perimeter, it's in a residential area, if the guy bolts from the streetcar and buggers off, then what? In your view, would the police be justified in shooting him if he attempted to leave their perimeter armed?

I'm sure that cops can back off far enough to be safe but not let the guy run away... Use a bit of common sense...

Now my question, if it's true that the young man was an upstanding citizen...

Irrelevant. What they say he was doesn't really matter. He had a knife and had to be arrested, or killed IF necessary.

[On Guard for Thee]

Well, I wasn't there but I can tell there is noone in the car, because I have eyes and it's quite obvious. And I have one set of eyes, they must have had better than ten there by my count. It was also reported he himself had ordered all off the car. I don't think the cop made a mistake firing 2 volleys totalling 9 rounds and the second volley at an obvious angle to hit the man that was already down. Oh and let's throw in a tazzer shot for good measure. I reckon Toronto unfortunately will erupt over this it's so blatant. I truly hope I'm wrong on that one.

[Guest Derek L]

Ask others on the bus?

And how long does that take? And do we know that other officers were not doing just that?

I'm sure that cops can back off far enough to be safe but not let the guy run away... Use a bit of common sense...

Explain further........using common sense of course.

As I asked, if the young man got off the streetcar with his knife and bolted towards the police or onlookers, are the police then justified to shoot him?

Using "common sense", would you think the police would be better able to contain the suspect well on the streetcar alone, versus running around among the public and other officers?

Irrelevant. What they say he was doesn't really matter. He had a knife and had to be arrested, or killed IF necessary.

So when would killing him be necessary in your opinion?

Edited July 30, 2013 by Derek L

[GostHacked]

When the officers responded, how are they to know if nobody else is on the streetcar? Take the guy with the knife's word?

Usually the hostage (if you are implying is a hostage) is in plain view standing in front of one holding them. Usually being used as a human shield. Otherwise if the person was hiding, not even the perp would know he/she was there, let alone the cops.

As to a perimeter, it's in a residential area, if the guy bolts from the streetcar and buggers off, then what? In your view, would the police be justified in shooting him if he attempted to leave their perimeter armed?

If these are Toronto's finest, then surrounding a streetcar in the middle of the street should not be a problem. But then again these are the same people who stood back and watched 3 of their cars burn during the last G20 hosted in T.O.

Now my question, if it's true that the young man was an upstanding citizen (as portrayed by his family and friends), that doesn't suffer from mental illness and respects authority, why was he carrying a knife with him on transit?

Cripes, I'd be surprised if people were NOT packing something. There are some rough parts in Toronto.

Also, why would he expose himself to the other passengers, then brandish his knife at police officers? Doesn't sound like the sort I'd want my daughter coming home with....

Why do people do anything? This guy is dead, we will never know the 'why', and feel good your daughters are safe.

Edited July 30, 2013 by GostHacked

[The_Squid]

Your assertion that I want him "running around among the public" is assinine.

If he was actually attempting to kill someone, then shoot him. But, as the security expert and ex-T.O. cop says, they could have waited him out instead of being so eager to shoot him.

"Your mouth is your best weapon," he said.

The key is to communicate with and contain the suspect, he said.

"He was fairly contained. He was in the streetcar. He could have let that guy sit there all night."

[gunrutz]

So why did the cops get so close for them to find themselves in the danger zone? Step back, set up a perimeter, grab a coffee, wait him out. This is going to get a cop killed as well as the 'perp'.

Maybe that's what should have happened, but its pretty tough to guess as to why it didn't, there could be many legitimate reasons for not waiting him out, or not considering waiting him out or not believing you had time to consider waiting him out, idk, i have never been a cop, the vast majority who are rushing to judgement also dont know. But if you are in a postion of having someone move towards you while carrying a weapon with the apearent intent to use it, deadly force is justified. There are far too many questions right now to decide how or why any of it happened and if someone needs to be punished for it, police officers generally don't shoot people for the hell of it, but they also make mistakes. We will see.

[gunrutz]

Doesnt look good for the cops IMO. Comply or die!

Come on, I would suggest that if you ever brandish a weapon and appear to have the intent of using it on anyone, especially a police officer, that you very quickly change your mind and drop it, because yes, not compling under those circumstances will in all likelyhood, greatly reduce your life span.

[Guest Derek L]

Usually the hostage (if you are implying is a hostage) is in plain view standing in front of one holding them. Usually being used as a human shield. Otherwise if the person was hiding, not even the perp would know he/she was there, let alone the cops.

Usually eh? So how are the police to know if a person is not bleeding out on the floor of the streetcar?

If these are Toronto's finest, then surrounding a streetcar in the middle of the street should not be a problem. But then again these are the same people who stood back and watched 3 of their cars burn during the last G20 hosted in T.O.

And if he decides to leave the perimeter, then what?

Cripes, I'd be surprised if people were NOT packing something. There are some rough parts in Toronto.

Carrying a knife for self defense is illegal.

Why do people do anything? This guy is dead, we will never know the 'why', and feel good your daughters are safe.

I don't know, that's why I asked.......Was he bonkers? Was he wound up on drugs or booze? Motivated by radical Islam like the recent knife wielding men in London that hacked a person to death? Like I said, I don't know.

[Guest Derek L]

Your assertion that I want him "running around among the public" is assinine.

If he was actually attempting to kill someone, then shoot him. But, as the security expert and ex-T.O. cop says, they could have waited him out instead of being so eager to shoot him.

Well the difference then is shooting him on the streetcar or shooting him on the streets with all sorts of people present……..as the video demonstrated, he started moving towards police outside of the streetcar before police shot him………pretty clear cut.