bleeding heart Posted August 3, 2013 Report Posted August 3, 2013 (edited) You can 'delist' whomever you like. I'm not your keeper. It's not me who delists known terrorist groups for matters of political expediency; nor do I accept money from known terrorist groups to speak on their behalf. That would be your heroes: the American political elite. Hell, after several posts of discussion about a hundred or two hundred thousand murders--your response was "meh"...until you let us know what really ticks you off: people saying too many mean things about America. The phenomenon of the Commissar is far from over, evidently! Edited August 3, 2013 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
DogOnPorch Posted August 3, 2013 Report Posted August 3, 2013 ......And it's still "meh". Much like Tamils...who da nuck cares? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bleeding heart Posted August 3, 2013 Report Posted August 3, 2013 Well, like I said: if there is involvement in mass killings by the US, or Canada, or the UK--several countries are on the Holy-of-Holies list, I suppose--then "meh" seems like your appropriate response. But if someone says something that's just too mean about these countries--why, that's a wound to the delicate sensibilities. An outrage, I tell you! And arouses suspicions of terrorist-lovin.' Okey dokey. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Rue Posted August 3, 2013 Report Posted August 3, 2013 Thank you, Rue. You're a true gentleman. Same to you. Its opinions we are busting jaws at not each other personally. I am the first to say I have gone too ballistic in certain discussions and can be a large sphincter muscle. That said, and back to the issue, I think most reasonable people would agree the Palestinian Authority has people who genuinely do not agree with engaging in terrorism and others that do. I think all reasonable people would agree there may very well be extremists on the Israeli side who would engage in violence against Palestinians. How many violent terrorist extremists there are on either side no one really knows. For me I do not believe Hamas presently controlled by its Syrian sphere, has any moderates and I believe it is as much a danger to the Lebanese, Palestinians and Jordanians as it is to Israel. I make the same comment about Hezbollah and the Iranian regime. I am not sure how anyone thinks Mr.Abbas can enforce a peace agreement if one was reached. Hezbollah and Hamas and Iran have repeatedly stated they will not stop until Israel is removed as a Jewish state and they will engage in violence not just against Israelis but any Jew anywhere in the world as well as anyone supporting Israel anywhere in the world until Israel is removed as a nation. The newly elected Iranian leader stated the same thing a day ago again. I think both Mr. Abbas and Mr. Netanyahu do not want to look like they have insulted John Kerry's latest sincere efforts. I think Tzipi Levni is as idealistic as her sound bites sound. I think though we need to be realistic. How can either side arrange a peace deal with Hamas,Hezbollah and Iran there to sabotage things? There is a renewed pressure to do something as there are 1 million Syrian Palestinians in Lebanon. That threatens the stability of both Lebanon and Jordan next door strained with its admittance of so many Syrian refugees, many also Palestinian. Abbas and Netanyahu know they have to do something but the question is-will Abbas recognize Israel as a Jewish state in order to get Israel to financially and strategically help it starts its own state on the ground by working with Jordan and them. Will Jordan and a Palestinian state forge an alliance on the ground with Israel? Could anyone with Hezbollah next door in Lebanon and Hamas threatening to kill anyone supporting Israel anywhere and Iran financing them? The only positive news is the Egyptian military knocked Morsi out of the equation and Morsi's hatred of Coptic Christians and suspending any kind of democratic institutions in his country would have been a disaster if it continued. If he Egyptian military can wrestle back control of its Sinai borders with Israel that is a huge help in containing Hamas and making any kind of peace deal more of a possibility. Me personally I do not feel peace is possible until terrorists such as Hezbollah and Hamas and over 300 other terror cells all disarm. The mind set needed to shift from terrorism to peace as the IRA was willing to do before peace talks came in Northern Ireland is just not there. Quote
bleeding heart Posted August 3, 2013 Report Posted August 3, 2013 (edited) That said, and back to the issue, I think most reasonable people would agree the Palestinian Authority has people who genuinely do not agree with engaging in terrorism and others that do. I think all reasonable people would agree there may very well be extremists on the Israeli side who would engage in violence against Palestinians. How many violent terrorist extremists there are on either side no one really knows. For me I do not believe Hamas presently controlled by its Syrian sphere, has any moderates and I believe it is as much a danger to the Lebanese, Palestinians and Jordanians as it is to Israel. Yes, I think Hamas has shown its face enough times that we can believe that's the way they really are. They are not the proper servants of their people, which at bottom is supposed to be the democratic mandate. So they repress the people from within, even as they have a policy of belligerence without. A Palestinian leadership devoted to the cause of peace and of alliance with Israel would enrage a lot of extremists...but in the long run, they would be hailed as political heroes. And I don't quite see why this is a naïve view. I think it would save the day. As for Westerners...well, those inclined to despise Israel in every way, as well as those inclined to see Palestinians as both savages and as...not a "real people"...well, they'd still bitch and whine. But aside from them, lefties, righties, centrists, and neutral....would all admire this greatly. The only positive news is the Egyptian military knocked Morsi out of the equation and Morsi's hatred of Coptic Christians and suspending any kind of democratic institutions in his country would have been a disaster if it continued. I agree completely. For those who complain about the undermining of democracy, we have to remember that, first, Morsi and the Brotherhood were openly, explicitly undermining democracy; and that, second, a hell of a lot of Morsi voters are among those who ran him out. I remember when the uprisings against Mubarak really took force, that many people wondered, "But is this really about democracy?" Well, I think this proves that it really was. (No doubt Islamists and troublemakers were part of the uprising too...but there is no such thing as a "pure" revolution.) Me personally I do not feel peace is possible until terrorists such as Hezbollah and Hamas and over 300 other terror cells all disarm. The mind set needed to shift from terrorism to peace as the IRA was willing to do before peace talks came in Northern Ireland is just not there. I suppose not all terrorists are the same...sounds like a weird thing to say, but I think it's as complex as any other large-scale lunatic movement. However, I think you're right. The way out, in my view, is for a battle of wills between terrorists and those who oppose terrorism. As the opposition to such tactics comes from every stripe--from ultra-conservative Muslims, to "Muslim-in-name-only" secular leftists, and everything in between--I maintain this is a possibility. Edited August 3, 2013 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
dre Posted August 4, 2013 Report Posted August 4, 2013 A Palestinian leadership devoted to the cause of peace and of alliance with Israel would enrage a lot of extremists...but in the long run, they would be hailed as political heroes. I disagree... You are assuming that such a leadership would accomplish anything but they wouldnt. The Abbas government for example has probably been the most moderate palestinian leadership in history... yet the occupation continues and settlement building has increased. There is absolutely nothing any palestinian leadership could do that would result in any real change to the status quo. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bleeding heart Posted August 4, 2013 Report Posted August 4, 2013 I disagree... You are assuming that such a leadership would accomplish anything but they wouldnt. The Abbas government for example has probably been the most moderate palestinian leadership in history... yet the occupation continues and settlement building has increased. There is absolutely nothing any palestinian leadership could do that would result in any real change to the status quo. Well, perhaps I'm concentrating a little too heavily on official leadership, so I take your point. But I do believe that a rise in peaceful Palestinian tactics (which some people claim is already occurring) is going to have a salutary effect. The more of this that occurs, the more that both Israel and Hamas will be politically sidelined--I mean by their own citizens--so long as they maintain heavy-handed strategies. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
-TSS- Posted August 4, 2013 Report Posted August 4, 2013 Israel faces a dilemma. Either it must grant independence for Palestine, which it is reluctant to do, perhaps for understandable reasons, or, the worse alternative being that the Jewish people become outnumbered by non-Jews in Israel as long as Israel holds onto what would be an independent Palestine. Quote
Rue Posted August 5, 2013 Report Posted August 5, 2013 Israel faces a dilemma. Either it must grant independence for Palestine, which it is reluctant to do, perhaps for understandable reasons, or, the worse alternative being that the Jewish people become outnumbered by non-Jews in Israel as long as Israel holds onto what would be an independent Palestine. That is a fact. It has also been publically stated by two former heads of Israeli intelligence which would be no accident in that for them both to have stated that publically means it was deliberately stated to get Israelis reluctant to the idea to get used to that idea. Israel can not exist in the future without a two state solution. The numbers attest to that. Had Israel intended to take over the West Bank and annex it, it would have had to absorb all the Palestinians on the West Bank and it has no intention of doing so and placing the Jewish population of Israel in the minority. Israel's great existential threat other than immediate terrorism of course is the fact for it to be democratic it can not survive once Jews are not a majority. They would be voted out of Jewish state existence and this is what Abbas wants-a solution that would allow Palestinians to return within 1967 Israel to turn Israel into a Muslim majority population. He has yet to renounce that notion. Every reference to recognizing Israel is attached to the above condition and stating he will not recognize a Jewish Israel just an Israel. If Israel is looking at a long term viable solution it would need first for terrorists to put down arms just like the IRA did in Northern Ireland. Then they would need a recognition from Abbas and the Arab League as to the right of Israel be remain a Jewish state. No Arab nation has ever acknowledged publically that Israel is a Jewish state and has the right to be one. Those are huge mental hurdles for the Arab world to make. They are miniscule compared to Netanyahu's reality of if there is to be peace, dealing with up to 100,000 militant Israelis who can be expected to be unruly and uncivil and it would not be a surprise to anyone if out of a minority of the angry in that 100,000 willing to engage in violence that some could turn terrorist. Netanyahu can brace and contain his own people but the Arab world? Does anyone see any moderates in the Arab world capable of coming forward and denouncing terrorism and demanding the people of the Arab world step down from terrorism as a solution and recognize the right of a Jewish state to exist? There is no such leader right now. The West keeps setting Israel up to negotiate and thrusting moral responsibility on Israel for failures to date as to a peaceful solution but where is it criticizing the Arab world for failing to do the same? When was the last time anyone in the West even Obama come right out and blame the lack of peace on terrorism and a refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and not just militant Israelis on the West Bank? Only Stephen Harper has said as much. The consummate diplomat John Kerry won't. Who has the ability to lead a moderate, progressive democratic movement in the Middle East? Where are its Ghandis, Luther Kings, Kennedies? Where are its visionaries who can capture the positive imagination of the next generation of young Muslims and convince them to move into the 21st century and modernize their thinking about Jews, Israelis, gays, women, Americans, Christians, Bahaiis, anyone they think is their moral enemy? Does anyone on this forum know the name of one moderate Arab leader who could do this? I know of Arab intellects but all live in Europe, Canada and the US and have no interest in returning to their countries and being arrested. As we speak the alleged moderate in Turkey has arrested 64 individuals and is trying to give them life sentences for opposing his political views. The tragedy is there may be no one in the Arab world at this time capable of leading any peaceful solution. Quote
PIK Posted August 7, 2013 Report Posted August 7, 2013 I guess hudson taken his hate somewhere else. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
jbg Posted August 7, 2013 Report Posted August 7, 2013 I guess hudson taken his hate somewhere else. Here's his last post: Hello Selective. Just a reminder for the next time you throw your arms up when HRW makes a comment about Israel or U.S. It's a good bet that either he's been suspended/banned; and/or He'll pop up under another name, as he has in iterations such as: dub; bud; and/or naomiglover Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
carepov Posted August 7, 2013 Report Posted August 7, 2013 Does anyone on this forum know the name of one moderate Arab leader who could do this? This guy seems like he would make a good leader, what do you think? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzeldin_Abuelaish Quote
Rue Posted August 7, 2013 Report Posted August 7, 2013 (edited) This guy seems like he would make a good leader, what do you think? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzeldin_Abuelaish Good choice. . in my humble opinion. Yes this man lost his children tragically and does not seem to have given in to sheer hatred. I read some of his responses in interviews. It would he hard to not consider what this man says however he has been rejected by mainstream Palestinian politicians as too moderate. I am sure there are more Care. But I doubt they can speak out at this point. I am just exasperated we here the same old recycled names so I was asking in a rhetorical way. I would love to see a man like this one talk peace with Israel. Seriously though Care, when you look at the Palestinian Authoirty today who is truly moderate. The doctor you mention is called a traitor for having worked in Israeli hospitals. The P.A. itself has a leader who went out of his way to say he would never recognize Israel as a Jwish state and to sing praises on terrorists who died trying to liberate. His right hand man has called for the use of nuclear weapons against Israel if need be so just who is there. I think a truly peaceful Palestine openly calling for reognition of a Jewish state would get killed at this time. But it does not mean it won't happen. The question is in my lifetime? In yours? I hope so. I am exasperated but no one thought peace in Ireland was possible either. Edited August 7, 2013 by Rue Quote
Rue Posted August 7, 2013 Report Posted August 7, 2013 Here's his last post: It's a good bet that either he's been suspended/banned; and/or He'll pop up under another name, as he has in iterations such as: dub; bud; and/or naomiglover I believe it is an automated response system that targets all kinds of political forums not just this one. Quote
jbg Posted August 7, 2013 Report Posted August 7, 2013 I believe it is an automated response system that targets all kinds of political forums not just this one. Have you seen Hudson Jones elsewhere? How would an automated resopnse system create an opening post? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted August 8, 2013 Report Posted August 8, 2013 No Arab nation has ever acknowledged publically that Israel is a Jewish state and has the right to be one. The word Jewish isnt important here. Only the word state. And MOST arab countries respect Israeli statehood. Expecting more than this is unreasonable and unconducive to any kind of positive relationship. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted August 8, 2013 Report Posted August 8, 2013 The word Jewish isnt important here. Only the word state. And MOST arab countries respect Israeli statehood. Expecting more than this is unreasonable and unconducive to any kind of positive relationship. You're ignoring the "deal-breaker" that Yasir Arafat threw in at the end of the 2000 negotiations; a "right of return" of descendants of Arab refugees. The aim was to swamp what would have been mostly pre-1967 Israel with saves of non-Jewish descendants. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
DogOnPorch Posted August 8, 2013 Report Posted August 8, 2013 You're ignoring the "deal-breaker" that Yasir Arafat threw in at the end of the 2000 negotiations; a "right of return" of descendants of Arab refugees. The aim was to swamp what would have been mostly pre-1967 Israel with saves of non-Jewish descendants. Seeing Israel is surrounded by various Islamic States...many who have forcibly ejected their Jewish populations...it seems prudent to want to be a 'Jewish State' in that neighbourhood. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted August 8, 2013 Report Posted August 8, 2013 Seeing Israel is surrounded by various Islamic States...many who have forcibly ejected their Jewish populations...it seems prudent to want to be a 'Jewish State' in that neighbourhood. Who would have thought that the Jewish state would be surrounded by Arab states when you plunk down right in the middle of them. Shocking to say the least. Quote
Rue Posted August 8, 2013 Report Posted August 8, 2013 Have you seen Hudson Jones elsewhere? How would an automated resopnse system create an opening post? I believe I have. Also you can take an automated response system, or more accurately put, scripts given to you, and send them out when certain words pop up. You can also mix prescribed scripts with personalized responses. There are some web sites that explain how these systems work. I will try find one for you and the others on this forum. I now must close down for repairs...repairs...repairs...repai....errrrrz. Quote
Rue Posted August 8, 2013 Report Posted August 8, 2013 http://www.supershareware.com/automated-reply-free/ The above is a base simplified version that is now widely used that is derived from other systems that can be even more complex in how their automated responses are activated. Someone with software expertise would be far better off explaining it. I am from the old school. I still believe in thinking for myself and responding according to my own thoughts. It makes work quite interesting. The new generation of humans brought up on cell phone and internet clash with those of us who were brought up reading books and using our imagination. The think within the box and only when told what to think cognitive process of the next generation programmed from when they were children on t.v. and computers to me is worrisome. It now reflects for example in the lack of creative writing scripts in Hollywood. When was the last time anyone saw a movie with dialogue? When was the last time other than Harry Potter anyone read a book with creativity and imagination? Where are the classic musicians or even comedians? You can vividly see on this forum how one generation repeats a very narrow and rigid script fed to them they do not question while another reflects the cynicism of people over a certain age who realize we all live in the Wizard of Oz's land. You asked me how do I know the Wizard is using machines to make him sound more fierce? Oh heck, who does not these days. Let's just say we live in a world of collagen lips. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted August 8, 2013 Report Posted August 8, 2013 (edited) Who would have thought that the Jewish state would be surrounded by Arab states when you plunk down right in the middle of them. Shocking to say the least. Perfidy at its height. The Ottoman Land Code of 1858 allowed private individuals in the Empire to own...buy and sell...land with the caveat of paying taxes and serving in the military. Land speculation became the new fun game to play was wealthy citizens bought-up vast tracts and charged rent. Few Arabs took the opportunity to purchase land as taxes and the Ottoman Army was generally to be avoided by the rank and file. The Mufti's clan (al-Husseini) a notable exception in the area. One other group did take advantage of the new laws...the Jews...and later the Zionist Movement. They purchased as much continuous land as they could over the years leading up to WW1...mostly desert and scrub land near modern Tel Aviv that the Ottoman landowners found useless for corn production. When all the continous land was bought-up, individual plots were purchased where possible. Jews were not compelled to serve in the Ottoman Army as long as the Jizya head tax was paid...so it was actually a pretty good deal for those seeking a new life in the ancient Jewish homeland. As long as one had money... It should be noted that to so-called moderate Fatah...the ones deemed fit to rule the Palestinian state often championed on this forum...have a law that punishes those who would sell land to Jews. The punishment is DEATH. Nice guys... Edited August 8, 2013 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted August 11, 2013 Report Posted August 11, 2013 http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/israel-approves-nearly-1-200-new-settlement-homes-1.1406316 Announced today, 1200 new approved settlements. Peace! or is it Peice!! "No country in the world takes orders from other countries where it can build and where it can't," Ariel said in his statement. "We will continue to market housing and build in the entire country ... This is the right thing at the present time, for Zionism and for the economy." I think I see the plan. So hear me out..... If Israel had annexed both sections early on, the Jewish population would be in the minority. Build settlements get the jews living out there, multiply to the point where it COULD be annexed and jews would still be in the majority keeping their culture. Nice plan. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted August 11, 2013 Report Posted August 11, 2013 (edited) http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/israel-approves-nearly-1-200-new-settlement-homes-1.1406316 Announced today, 1200 new approved settlements. Peace! or is it Peice!! I think I see the plan. So hear me out..... If Israel had annexed both sections early on, the Jewish population would be in the minority. Build settlements get the jews living out there, multiply to the point where it COULD be annexed and jews would still be in the majority keeping their culture. Nice plan. It is a nice plan. Were we hoping for a Judenrein West Bank? Yeah...so were the terrorists. Edited August 11, 2013 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
jbg Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/israel-approves-nearly-1-200-new-settlement-homes-1.1406316 Announced today, 1200 new approved settlements. Peace! or is it Peice!! I think I see the plan. So hear me out..... If Israel had annexed both sections early on, the Jewish population would be in the minority. Build settlements get the jews living out there, multiply to the point where it COULD be annexed and jews would still be in the majority keeping their culture. Nice plan. It is a nice plan. Were we hoping for a Judenrein West Bank? Yeah...so were the terrorists. It wouldn't be happening if the Palestinians had spent the last 45 years doing something productive rather than plotting Israel's destruction. Bulletin - starting in 1815 the U.S. and what's now Canada did the same, after roughly 43 years of off and on struggle. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
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