Israel Forcibly Injected African Immigrants with Birth Control

[DogOnPorch]

Sorry, but according to medical ethics that's not how free and informed consent works.

You're an expert on medical ethics all of a sudden? Cool.

[Hudson Jones]

I'm not changing what we are talking about at all. Israel admitted to "something" and others are accusing them of something else entirely; ie: something other than what "Israel admitted to." I'm simply pointing out that what Israel "admitted to" is not what some of you are claiming it is. If that sounds "ridiculous" to you - I'm not surprised.

Israel admitted to and acknowledged that Israeli doctors are giving Jewish Ethiopians birth control injections and has asked the practice to stop.

Yes, admitting and acknowledging are the same thing.

Good that you are finally acknowledging (or admitting). Because before you said in response to my comment:

Me: Same thing. They have acknowledged (admitted) the practice of injecting Ethiopian immigrants with birth control.

You: No, it's not the same thing. At all.

Israel just hasn't "admitted to" and "acknowledged" what you claim they admit to and acknowledge. In other words, what Israel admitted to and acknowledged, and what you/others claim Israel admitted to and acknowledged, are two different things.

As I said before: Same thing. They have acknowledged (admitted) the practice of injecting Ethiopian immigrants with birth control. This was done in order to control their birthrate.

No, Israel has acknowledged/admitted that Ethiopian Jews have been given Depo-provera for birth control - not so "Israel could control their birthrate." Good Lord.

Says you and other Israeli apologists. Many believe otherwise due to the overwhelming evidence. Over 50% of Depo-Provera prescribed in Israel have been to the Ethiopian Jews, while they're less than 2% of the population of Israel. Not only that, but countless Ethiopian women have come out saying that they were forced or coerced into getting the injection. If that's not enough evidence, since this project started, in 10 years, the birthrate fell by 50%.

So, according to the information, Israel has had a systematic policy to control the Ethiopian Israelis' birthrate.

Women in Canada are given birth control all the time. Do you think that's because "Canada wants to control their birthrate??" Again. That's the birth control of choice of women in Ethiopia.

Good lord. What an absolutely dishonest form of debating.

In Canada, women are not coming out saying that they have been forced and coerced into taking Depo-Provera.

In Canada, we don't have a so-called undesirable class, whose population has suddenly dropped by 50% in 10 years.

You want to use ridiculous form of debating, that's your choice. But don't expect others to accept the ridiculous narrative.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Guest American Woman]

Good lord. What an absolutely dishonest form of debating.

In Canada, women are not coming out saying that they have been forced and coerced into taking Depo-Provera.

In Canada, we don't have a so-called undesirable class, whose population has suddenly dropped by 50% in 10 years.

You want to use ridiculous form of debating, that's your choice. But don't expect others to accept the ridiculous narrative.

From what I see, those who are making this into something it isn't are the ones looking at Ethiopian Jews as "undesirable." It's ludicrous to look at the reality - that a great number of Ethiopian Jews ended up in Israel because Israel went out of its way to airlift them there at great effort and expense - and then accuse Israel of considering them "undesirable."

As for what women in Canada are saying - no one has looked at the declining birth rate in Canada and questioned it, blaming the government - which was sort of my point ; however, Canadians are saying that they didn't understand the ramifications of taking depo-provera. But getting back to the declining birth rate, again, no one questions it. People realize that women coming from a developing nation with an extremely high birth rate tend to have fewer children when they move to a developed nation where they have more choices, and they recognize that as a positive thing.

It's been pointed out several times now that the decline in birth rate among Ethiopian Israelis coincides with a higher percentage of Ethiopian women entering the work force. It's also been pointed out that a lower birth rate coincides with an increase in education. It's also been pointed out that more Ethiopian Israeli women are having abortions. It's also been pointed out that depo-provera is the birth control of choice of most Ethiopian women. It's also been explained why many Ethiopian women would prefer such a method of birth control.

But some people will keep ignoring anything and everything that doesn't suit their agenda as they twist and distort reality into something it's not. Ironically, they are usually the ones who accuse others of being dishonest.

[Hudson Jones]

From what I see, those who are making this into something it isn't are the ones looking at Ethiopian Jews as "undesirable."

How ridiculous is that comment.

You don't make sense. Are you pretending that there isn't discrimination against Ethiopian Jews in Israel and that there aren't groups in Israel who do not accept them as Jews?

It's ludicrous to look at the reality - that a great number of Ethiopian Jews ended up in Israel because Israel went out of its way to airlift them there at great effort and expense - and then accuse Israel of considering them "undesirable."

The Ethiopian Jews ended up in Israel because they are Jews. It's the right of all Jews to end up in Israel. Israel is obligated to allow all Jews into Israel. Stop trying to pretend that Israel was doing these people a favour when they were obligated to bring them into the country.There has been much resistance from many Israelis to not allow the black Jews to enter Israel or to live amongst them.

Information has already been shared in this thread about discrimination against Ethiopian Jews in Israel. Information that goes against the Israeli apologist narrative.

But here is more information anyway:

But not everyone is sympathetic. Israeli mayors unabashedly urge the government to keep Ethiopian immigrants away from their cities.

During a break in Ishete's talk, Masha Aroshes, Rishon LeZion municipality official, says that more Ethiopian families due to arrive here are not welcome.

"They are going to a neighborhood which the mayor has been trying very hard to improve," she says. "It is just starting to flower. Adding another 35 Ethiopian families is not right. It impacts on the education level. In order for the Ethiopians to be properly absorbed, they should not go there."

That kind of talk is adding to alienation among Ethiopians, according to Asher Elias, a staff member at the Israel Association for Ethiopian Jews (IAEJ).

"Ethiopians have lots of motivation to become Israelis, but they are not accepted," he says. "In jobs, in education, people feel they are discriminated against because they are black. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but it is what we are feeling, and that is enough."

Some Israelis don't accept Ethiopian Jews as Jews:

Habad, one of Israel's stronger orthodox religious groups, doesn't recognize Ethiopians as Jews or allow their children into its kindergartens.

Link

As for what women in Canada are saying - no one has looked at the declining birth rate in Canada and questioned it, blaming the government - which was sort of my point ; however, Canadians are saying that they didn't understand the ramifications of taking depo-provera. But getting back to the declining birth rate, again, no one questions it. People realize that women coming from a developing nation with an extremely high birth rate tend to have fewer children when they move to a developed nation where they have more choices, and they recognize that as a positive thing.

That narrative has already been answered to and has been debunked. Yet, you comeback and repeat them? Are you ever going to learn?

So you are now desperately trying to equate the difference in birthrate of Canadians in 24 years, which went from 27 to 15 per 1000. A difference of 45% in the span of 24 years. Whereas in Israel, the population of Israeli Ethiopians went down 50% in the span of 10 years. This sudden decrease can be contributed to something the Israeli government has admitted to doing and has stopped doing after pressure from several human rights organizations.

Your argument is that this sudden drop in birthrate may be due to Israeli Ethiopian women's sudden change in cultural practices. I don't think anyone here, besides others like you, who will go to any length to justify Israeli actions, will see any logic and rational behind your explanation.

It's been pointed out several times now that the decline in birth rate among Ethiopian Israelis coincides with a higher percentage of Ethiopian women entering the work force. It's also been pointed out that a lower birth rate coincides with an increase in education. It's also been pointed out that more Ethiopian Israeli women are having abortions. It's also been pointed out that depo-provera is the birth control of choice of most Ethiopian women. It's also been explained why many Ethiopian women would prefer such a method of birth control.

You are going back to trying to make this out to be a natural drop in birthrate when the 50% drop in birthrate was in 10 years. That is NOT a natural decline in birthrate. Stop making things up. Here is a response that was already made to you in another post:

These natural changes in cultural practices happen naturally. They don't suddenly change and have a dramatic drop which coincide with a birth control practice that we already know has happened to a number of Ethiopian women.

You're basing your comment on hot air and useless assumptions. There is no evidence that Ethiopian women are acting on their own choice. However, there is evidence that a large percentage of them who have been interviewed have said they were forced or coerced into taking birth control.

But some people will keep ignoring anything and everything that doesn't suit their agenda as they twist and distort reality into something it's not. Ironically, they are usually the ones who accuse others of being dishonest.

At least you are not trying to compare Ethiopian Jews in Israel to Ethiopian Jews in Ethiopia anymore. But I won't hold my breath. You have a habit of recycling debunked claims and narratives.

Instead of re-typing, I will just repost what has been posted before:

Before you try to deal and lobby assumptions, why not deal and accept the information we have from this situation:

- Over 30 women have given their account of a systematic plan to control the birth rate of Ethiopians

- The government of Israel has admitted to this practice by ordering the practice to stop

- A 50% birthrate drop in only 10 years is a shockingly dramatic drop in birthrate

- This sharp drop-off coincides with the arrival of the last wave of immigration of Ethiopian Jews and the start of the depro-vera practice.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[cybercoma]

You're an expert on medical ethics all of a sudden? Cool.

No, but evidently I know more about medical ethics, which isn't much at all, than you do. Edited February 23, 2013 by cybercoma

[DogOnPorch]

No, but evidently I know more about medical ethics, which isn't much at all, than you do.

I highly doubt you're superior to me at anything, frankly. But, hey...I have a high opinion of myself. Probably why I get the hot chicks.

[Guest American Woman]

How ridiculous is that comment.

Not ridiculous at all. Thanks for asking.

You don't make sense. Are you pretending that there isn't discrimination against Ethiopian Jews in Israel and that there aren't groups in Israel who do not accept them as Jews?

There's discrimination just about everywhere, in every country (including Canada), but going from recognition of some discrimination to claiming ISRAEL has deemed Ethiopian Israelis "undesirable" is what's "ridiculous" at best.

The Ethiopian Jews ended up in Israel because they are Jews. It's the right of all Jews to end up in Israel. Israel is obligated to allow all Jews into Israel. Stop trying to pretend that Israel was doing these people a favour when they were obligated to bring them into the country.There has been much resistance from many Israelis to not allow the black Jews to enter Israel or to live amongst them.

Ethiopian Jews ended up in Israel because Israel rescued them. Being obligated to "let them in" and going to the extremes that the government did to bring them there are two different things. Again. It would make no sense to bring them there and then try to commit genocide. Much easier to have left them in Ethiopia, claiming there was nothing that could reasonably be done to rescue them. Certainly if the Israeli government were capable of committing genocide it would be capable of that. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise.

Information has already been shared in this thread about discrimination against Ethiopian Jews in Israel. Information that goes against the Israeli apologist narrative.

But here is more information anyway:

Nothing there suggests that Israel thinks of Ethiopian Jews as "undesirable" or suggests there is a desire to commit genocide. Interestingly the "information" you gave was about "some Jews" as you put it on the whole; ie: "Israel."

That narrative has already been answered to and has been debunked. Yet, you comeback and repeat them? Are you ever going to learn?

If by "learn" you mean "believe propaganda," and that appears to be the case, the answer is no.

So you are now desperately trying to equate the difference in birthrate of Canadians in 24 years, which went from 27 to 15 per 1000. A difference of 45% in the span of 24 years. Whereas in Israel, the population of Israeli Ethiopians went down 50% in the span of 10 years.

Let's try this one more time and see if you are capable of "learning."

The population rate drop in Canada wasn't as extreme as in Israel re: Ethiopian Israelis because it wasn't only in reference to recent immigrants from a country with an exceptionally high birth rate, so of course the drop wasn't quite as sudden. It was close, though - I finally found some statistics, which, as I've mentioned, have been glaringly lacking, and the almost 50% drop in birth rate among Ethiopian Israelis was actually over a 15 year period: "official figures that show the Ethiopian birth rate plummeted from 4.6 children in 1996 to 2.5 in 2011." That's 15 years, and not quite 50%. Sort of like the plummet in the Canadian birth rate.

This sudden decrease can be contributed to something the Israeli government has admitted to doing and has stopped doing after pressure from several human rights organizations.

As has been pointed out, it can be attributed to many things, but do keep attributing it to something that the Israeli government has only "admitted to doing" in the minds of the anti-Israel crowd.

Your argument is that this sudden drop in birthrate may be due to Israeli Ethiopian women's sudden change in cultural practices. I don't think anyone here, besides others like you, who will go to any length to justify Israeli actions, will see any logic and rational behind your explanation.

I think anyone who knows anything about such things, anyone who isn't blinded by an agenda against Israel, will see the truth in my argument.

You are going back to trying to make this out to be a natural drop in birthrate when the 50% drop in birthrate was in 10 years. That is NOT a natural decline in birthrate. Stop making things up.

I'm not the one making things up. Considering Ethiopia has one of the highest birth rates in the world, it's only natural that it would drop once women had more choices, living in a developed nation. It's the norm. It's the reality of such situations, not only in Israel. Again. It was an almost 50% drop in 15 years, and quite comparable to Canada's declining birth rate considering Canada didn't start out as having one of the highest birth rates in the world.

Here is a response that was already made to you in another post:

I've already addressed said response.

You're basing your comment on hot air and useless assumptions.

You're the one basing your comments on hot air and useless, and I might add biased, assumptions.

There is no evidence that Ethiopian women are acting on their own choice. However, there is evidence that a large percentage of them who have been interviewed have said they were forced or coerced into taking birth control.

The key words there are "a large percentage of those who have been interviewed," because the percentage of those who have been interviewed is a very, very small percentage of Ethiopian Israelis. Furthermore, just because they felt they had to have the shots doesn't mean they in reality had to. They may have thought their chances of getting into Israel would be greater if they had the shots, as they said, but 1) that may have been their own fears coloring their thoughts and 2) why would they continue to go to the clinics to have the shot once in Israel? No one was going to their houses and dragging them to the clinics to get their shots. Furthermore, there were Ethiopian births in Israel. Perhaps those women just fell through the government program's cracks?

At least you are not trying to compare Ethiopian Jews in Israel to Ethiopian Jews in Ethiopia anymore.

Of course I am, as that's part of the total picture.

Instead of re-typing, I will just repost what has been posted before:

Instead of re-reading what I already addressed before, I won't waste my time.

[jbg]

a new low in israel. forced birth control, targeting a specific ethnic group

That Israel should allegedly engage in this activity is particularly shocking, considering the practice was widely used by the Germans throughout the Shoah. While the scale and effects of these operations cannot be compared, Israel’s implicit intent to limit ‘burdensome’ (read: undesirable) portions of the population recalls the dark eugenics experiments World War II.

link

There has been much discussion on here as to whether this even happened and to what extent. This proves how difficult it is for any advanced society to preserve itself.

These days advanced societies try both to help helpless people in other lands, and provide an ample social safety net. Any effort to limit these optional activities is roundly condemned.

[jbg]

There has been much discussion on here as to whether this even happened and to what extent. This proves how difficult it is for any advanced society to preserve itself.

These days advanced societies try both to help helpless people in other lands, and provide an ample social safety net. Any effort to limit these optional activities is roundly condemned.

An example of this is with North Korea (link). So much print is spilled on Israel; little on NK.

[Peanutbutter]

High risk of getting pregnant.

OK and who is this group who u mentioned is being at the high risk of becoming pregnant? Edited February 25, 2013 by Peanutbutter

[Hudson Jones]

Not ridiculous at all. Thanks for asking.

There's discrimination just about everywhere, in every country (including Canada), but going from recognition of some discrimination to claiming ISRAEL has deemed Ethiopian Israelis "undesirable" is what's "ridiculous" at best.

Ethiopian Jews ended up in Israel because Israel rescued them. Being obligated to "let them in" and going to the extremes that the government did to bring them there are two different things. Again. It would make no sense to bring them there and then try to commit genocide. Much easier to have left them in Ethiopia, claiming there was nothing that could reasonably be done to rescue them. Certainly if the Israeli government were capable of committing genocide it would be capable of that. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise.

Nothing there suggests that Israel thinks of Ethiopian Jews as "undesirable" or suggests there is a desire to commit genocide. Interestingly the "information" you gave was about "some Jews" as you put it on the whole; ie: "Israel."

In Canada, there aren't ethnic communities who are prevented from going to certain school.

In Israel, there are.

In Canada, there aren't ethnic communities who are prevented from renting in certain communities.

In Israel, there are.

You can keep downplaying the racist nature of many Israeli Jews, but the reality is that Israel, in general, is a very racist country. Especially when it comes to the treatment of its black population.

Racism against the Ethiopian Jews is real:

TEL AVIV, 9 February 2012 (IRIN) - Growing up in Israel, Shay Sium became accustomed to being called a “nigger”.

Sium, 32, has lived in Israel most of his life, but says he and other Ethiopian Jews are treated differently from other Israelis: factories do not want to employ them; landlords refuse them; and certain schools turn away their children.

"The word discrimination doesn’t describe what we experience. There is another word for it: racism. It is a shame that we still have to use this word today,” he told IRIN.

Link

Look at the responses in this thread and anywhere on the net about endless amount of information about how Ethiopian Jews are discriminated against. The fact that there is a policy to control their birthrate is not a surprise, considering how much racism is towards them and how there are so many who rather not have them live amongst them.

If by "learn" you mean "believe propaganda," and that appears to be the case, the answer is no.

You need to learn from the information being provided to you here and the endless amount of information provided to you on the internet. Resisting the truth only cements that you are not here for the truth.

Let's try this one more time and see if you are capable of "learning."

The population rate drop in Canada wasn't as extreme as in Israel re: Ethiopian Israelis because it wasn't only in reference to recent immigrants from a country with an exceptionally high birth rate, so of course the drop wasn't quite as sudden. It was close, though - I finally found some statistics, which, as I've mentioned, have been glaringly lacking, and the almost 50% drop in birth rate among Ethiopian Israelis was actually over a 15 year period: "official figures that show the Ethiopian birth rate plummeted from 4.6 children in 1996 to 2.5 in 2011." That's 15 years, and not quite 50%. Sort of like the plummet in the Canadian birth rate.

Ethiopian Jews didn't suddenly appear in Israel. They have been there since the 60's. How come this sudden drop in birthrate coincided with the accusation of Israel forcing birth control in Ethiopian Jews? Oh yeah, because Israel decided to systematically control their birthrate. Too many blacks are not desired in Israel.

As has been pointed out, it can be attributed to many things, but do keep attributing it to something that the Israeli government has only "admitted to doing" in the minds of the anti-Israel crowd.

No. Forcing birth control = sudden drop in birth rate. Stop resisting the truth.

I think anyone who knows anything about such things, anyone who isn't blinded by an agenda against Israel, will see the truth in my argument.

What? You just typed nonsense and didn't respond to the comment:

Your argument is that this sudden drop in birthrate may be due to Israeli Ethiopian women's sudden change in cultural practices. I don't think anyone here, besides others like you, who will go to any length to justify Israeli actions, will see any logic and rational behind your explanation.

I'm not the one making things up. Considering Ethiopia has one of the highest birth rates in the world, it's only natural that it would drop once women had more choices, living in a developed nation. It's the norm. It's the reality of such situations, not only in Israel. Again. It was an almost 50% drop in 15 years, and quite comparable to Canada's declining birth rate considering Canada didn't start out as having one of the highest birth rates in the world.

Oh no. Here you go again.

Ethiopian Jews have been living in Israel for many decades and the sudden birthrate drop happened in only the last decade, while the "women had more choices, living in a developed nation" for many decades. Did they suddenly decide that they had many choices in the past decade and not in the previous decades while living in Israel or because there was a birth control policy which was implemented by a racist country who is trying to keep the population of the Negroids down?

I've already addressed said response.

No you have not been able to respond.

These natural changes in cultural practices happen naturally. They don't suddenly change and have a dramatic drop which coincide with a birth control practice that we already know has happened to a number of Ethiopian women.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[DogOnPorch]

OK and who is this group who u mentioned is being at the high risk of becoming pregnant?

Anywhere birth control is unheard of or forbidden. As well, in areas with sickle cell, depo-provera is the preferred choice. This is simply a fact. Imagine also, the novelty for women to not be baby making machines for their husbands. That can't be attractive at all to an Ethiopian woman...eh? No...she wants to pump out 12-15 kids then keel over dead. It's part of her culture.

[Guest American Woman]

Anywhere birth control is unheard of or forbidden.

And as mentioned, Ethiopia has one of the highest birth rates in the world. It would be ridiculous to expect that they would continue reproducing at that rate once they've moved to and lived in a developed nation where women aren't reproducing at such high rates. Also, as you say, birth control is often forbidden in such nations, and that is the reason some Ethiopian women have given for choosing depo-provera. It eliminates tensions in the household.

Imagine also, the novelty for women to not be baby making machines for their husbands. That can't be attractive at all to an Ethiopian woman...eh? No...she wants to pump out 12-15 kids then keel over dead. It's part of her culture.

I've pointed out that Canada's birth rate has declined over the years, too - almost the same over a 24 year period as Ethiopian Israelis have over a 15 year period - because Ethiopian Israelis' birth rate declined by almost 50% from 1996 - 2011, which is 15 years, not 10. Canada's birth rate has dropped to the extent that the government relies on immigration to keep the growth rate steady. I haven't found any stats regarding Ethiopians- evidently they don't emigrate to Canada in large numbers - but I did find this re: immigrants from Pakistan:

Canada’s birth rate is currently hovering around 1.67 children per woman, well below the minimum of 2.0 needed for natural population replacement.

For Canada, expanding our numbers means depending on immigration, which accounts for two-thirds of population expansion. About 250,000 immigrants, most of them from China, India, Pakistan and the Philippines, are accepted into the country each year.

Some come from countries where economic, cultural and religious traditions have made larger families common, said Jeffrey Reitz, a professor of ethnic and immigration studies at the Munk School of Global Affairs at the University of Toronto.

“Immigrants from Pakistan, for example, have higher birth rates, so they bring more children with them,” Mr. Reitz said. “But the birth rate falls definitely after a period of time in Canada. In other words, they assimilate to our low-child mentality."

Repeating: the birth rate falls definitely after a period of time in Canada. In other words, they assimilate to our low-child mentality. Or is Canada forcing immigrants from Pakistan to take birth control? Why no exposes on this? Couldn't be that once again Israel is being singled out and demonized, eh? For something that occurs in other developed nations as well......

As the article points out, there are "all kinds of reasons" for the lower birth rates, but of course in Israel there is only one reason - the government forcing it on them.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/two-child-families-becoming-the-norm-in-canada/article544511/

Edited February 25, 2013 by American Woman

[DogOnPorch]

Canada routinely forces drug tests in order to have your ducks in a row re: UI/EI/Welfare benefits. I wonder how that would play in Israel in regards to Ethiopian women?

Headline: Canada Does Intrusive Medical Tests On The Needy...but Hudson won't rant about it.

[Hudson Jones]

And as mentioned, Ethiopia has one of the highest birth rates in the world. It would be ridiculous to expect that they would continue reproducing at that rate once they've moved to and lived in a developed nation where women aren't reproducing at such high rates. Also, as you say, birth control is often forbidden in such nations, and that is the reason some Ethiopian women have given for choosing depo-provera. It eliminates tensions in the household.

I've pointed out that Canada's birth rate has declined over the years, too - almost the same over a 24 year period as Ethiopian Israelis have over a 15 year period - because Ethiopian Israelis' birth rate declined by almost 50% from 1996 - 2011, which is 15 years, not 10. Canada's birth rate has dropped to the extent that the government relies on immigration to keep the growth rate steady. I haven't found any stats regarding Ethiopians- evidently they don't emigrate to Canada in large numbers - but I did find this re: immigrants from Pakistan:

Canada’s birth rate is currently hovering around 1.67 children per woman, well below the minimum of 2.0 needed for natural population replacement.

For Canada, expanding our numbers means depending on immigration, which accounts for two-thirds of population expansion. About 250,000 immigrants, most of them from China, India, Pakistan and the Philippines, are accepted into the country each year.

Some come from countries where economic, cultural and religious traditions have made larger families common, said Jeffrey Reitz, a professor of ethnic and immigration studies at the Munk School of Global Affairs at the University of Toronto.

“Immigrants from Pakistan, for example, have higher birth rates, so they bring more children with them,” Mr. Reitz said. “But the birth rate falls definitely after a period of time in Canada. In other words, they assimilate to our low-child mentality."

Repeating: the birth rate falls definitely after a period of time in Canada. In other words, they assimilate to our low-child mentality. Or is Canada forcing immigrants from Pakistan to take birth control? Why no exposes on this? Couldn't be that once again Israel is being singled out and demonized, eh? For something that occurs in other developed nations as well......

As the article points out, there are "all kinds of reasons" for the lower birth rates, but of course in Israel there is only one reason - the government forcing it on them.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/two-child-families-becoming-the-norm-in-canada/article544511/

More of the same comments, while dismissing the illogical premise behind it.

Your argument is that this sudden drop in birthrate may be due to Israeli Ethiopian women's sudden change in cultural practices. I don't think anyone here, besides others like you, who will go to any length to justify Israeli actions, will see any logic and rational behind your explanation.

Ethiopian Jews have been living in Israel for many decades and the sudden birthrate drop happened in only the last decade, while the "women had more choices, living in a developed nation" for many decades. Did they suddenly decide that they had many choices in the past decade and not in the previous decades while living in Israel or because there was a birth control policy which was implemented by a racist country who is trying to keep the population of the Negroids down?

These natural changes in cultural practices happen naturally. They don't suddenly change and have a dramatic drop which coincide with a birth control practice that we already know has happened to a number of Ethiopian women.

[jbg]

Your argument is that this sudden drop in birthrate may be due to Israeli Ethiopian women's sudden change in cultural practices. I don't think anyone here, besides others like you, who will go to any length to justify Israeli actions, will see any logic and rational behind your explanation.

Ethiopian Jews have been living in Israel for many decades and the sudden birthrate drop happened in only the last decade, while the "women had more choices, living in a developed nation" for many decades. Did they suddenly decide that they had many choices in the past decade and not in the previous decades while living in Israel or because there was a birth control policy which was implemented by a racist country who is trying to keep the population of the Negroids down?

So even if you're right, would you be willing to shell out for social benefits at Israeli rates, or perhaps at Ethiopian rates, for the results of unrestrained reproduction? In Ethiopia many of those children would die early. Not in Israel. Why should Israel be helpless to protect itself from the effects of its generous policy of relocating refugees?

These natural changes in cultural practices happen naturally. They don'tsuddenly change and have a dramatic drop which coincide with a birthcontrol practice that we already know has happened to a number of Ethiopian women.

Perhaps if they live in an Israeli environment where education is compulsory they see the difficulty of shepherding 10 children through homework? Even in a mansion that's a tough one. More so in modest accommodations.

Edited February 26, 2013 by jbg

[Guest American Woman]

These natural changes in cultural practices happen naturally. They don't suddenly change and have a dramatic drop which coincide with a birth control practice that we already know has happened to a number of Ethiopian women.

15 years IS a "natural change" (that coincides with the increase of Ethiopian Israeli women in the workforce); how you can keep arguing that it isn't - in light of the facts that I posted re: Canada's similar drop in birth rate (and that's not a population that had one of the highest birth rates in the world to begin with - not even close) tells me that there will always be those who see what they want to see. Some want to demonize Israel, and they will do whatever it takes. Just makes me realize even more that Israel will have to do what it has to do to survive.

And again: “Immigrants from Pakistan, for example, have higher birth rates, so they bring more children with them,” Mr. Reitz said. “But the birth rate falls definitely after a period of time in Canada. In other words, they assimilate to our low-child mentality."

Edited February 26, 2013 by American Woman

[Hudson Jones]

Canada's similar drop in birth rate

Stop lying.

[DogOnPorch]

I don't think Mr Hudson will be happy until Ethiopian women are pumping-out 15 babies each as in the ol' country. Until then, it will remain a Jewish conspiracy much like the Matzo Blood Libel.

[Hudson Jones]

So even if you're right, would you be willing to shell out for social benefits at Israeli rates, or perhaps at Ethiopian rates, for the results of unrestrained reproduction? In Ethiopia many of those children would die early. Not in Israel. Why should Israel be helpless to protect itself from the effects of its generous policy of relocating refugees?

How am I supposed to respond to a person who advocates forcibly controlling the birthrate of a group of people?

I am not able to discuss racist and discriminatory scenarios with people like you.

[Guest American Woman]

I don't think Mr Hudson will be happy until Ethiopian women are pumping-out 15 babies each as in the ol' country. Until then, it will remain a Jewish conspiracy much like the Matzo Blood Libel.

Exactly. I showed how Canada had the same drop in birth rate over a 24 year period compared to 15 re: Ethiopian Israelis, and of course that was re: the entire population of Canada - not just a group of immigrants who came from one of the highest birth rate countries in the world. A lower birth rate is generally perceived as a sign of a society with greater wealth and more choices for women, but evidently Ethiopian Israelis are supposed to stay stuck in the old ways or somehow Israel is guilty of all kinds of evil. It's mind boggling, really.

[DogOnPorch]

Exactly. I showed how Canada had the same drop in birth rate over a 24 year period compared to 15 re: Ethiopian Israelis, and of course that was re: the entire population of Canada - not just a group of immigrants who came from one of the highest birth rate countries in the world. A lower birth rate is generally perceived as a sign of a society with greater wealth and more choices for women, but evidently Ethiopian Israelis are supposed to stay stuck in the old ways or somehow Israel is guilty of all kinds of evil. It's mind boggling, really.

He won't even acknowledge the fact that Sickle Cell Anemia...common in Ethiopia...is relieved by the use of depro-provera...so, wha'dyahdo? Naturally...since it isn't expedient...none of these particular women suffer from it...right?

[Hudson Jones]

There are many holes in the twisting and turning and failed comparisons:

#1 - Ethiopians have been living in Israel for many decades. Meaning that they have many decades to assimilate into the culture. If you want to use the natural decline in birthrate argument, then the drop in birthrate should have been happening over time, over many decades. You are not.

#2 - The 50% drop in population has happened in the past 10 (or 15) years. It is a sudden drop in birthrate. Not a gradual drop you would expect.

#3 - This sudden drop in birthrate coincides with allegations that the Israeli government has been forcing Ethiopian women to be injected with birth control.

#4 - The Israeli government has ordered the stopping of the policy.

#5 - In Canada, no such discriminatory and racist policy exists towards any community. At least not in this day and age.

You can continue to try to excuse and whitewash Israel's discriminatory and racist policies, but the facts will continue contradict you.

[Peanutbutter]

Perhaps many of these Israeli Ethiopians are second generation now and are choosing to take birth control which is contributing to the lower birth rate. Do you really expect for the birth rate to remain as high as it is in the old country?

[bush_cheney2004]

#5 - In Canada, no such discriminatory and racist policy exists towards any community. At least not in this day and age.

Previous practices like the Sexual Sterilization Act in provinces continue to have an impact on principals and their descendants today.