The US, gun violence, and gun control

[bush_cheney2004]

I like that you think this helps your argument.

There is no argument. American citizens have 2nd Amendment rights to firearms. Period.

[cybercoma]

There is no argument. American citizens have 2nd Amendment rights to firearms. Period.

Someone was arguing that they don't? Weird because I didn't see that anywhere in this thread.

[Guest Derek L]

Incorrect. Hitler went after as many guns as he could get from the population on the whole.

As did every other tyrannical government in history, from AR-15s, to Flintlocks, to Longbows………..And under this common theme, every overthrow of a tyrannical government has started with citizens with small arms.

[GostHacked]

And that included the Jews, right?

If you want to frame it that way sure. But we are talking about gun control specifically. Hitler did a systematic banning of as many guns as possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany

[bush_cheney2004]

Someone was arguing that they don't? Weird because I didn't see that anywhere in this thread.

Good then, but please continue to argue about American gun rights from Canada. It is grand fun !

[Black Dog]

Incorrect. Hitler went after as many guns as he could get from the population on the whole.

People who argue that an armed populace could have stopped Hitler seem to forget how he got to power in the first place. It had a lot to do with his guys being armed.

Yet the Viet Cong and Mujahideen Stared down the business end of numerous Main Battle Tanks, and were predominantly only armed with a 70 year bolt action rifles………………As has been played out in History, insurgencies tend to favour the “little guy”, and in the case of the United States, they were born out of an insurgency………..

Yeah insurgencies favour the little guys as long as you don't mind the fact that they tend to get slaughtered in vast numbers before they can achieve their end. Guess you're hoping you'd be one of the lucky ones.

[cybercoma]

Good then, but please continue to argue about American gun rights from Canada. It is grand fun !

Why the hell would we talk about US politics in the US politics forum? Crazy!

[bush_cheney2004]

Why the hell would we talk about US politics in the US politics forum? Crazy!

I agree, and can hardly wait for the next great nugget of wisdom about gun control. This is more fun than health care !

[GostHacked]

People who argue that an armed populace could have stopped Hitler seem to forget how he got to power in the first place. It had a lot to do with his guys being armed.

There is that portion of the argument indeed. And look at the police in the USA, heavily militarized in tactics and in equipment. And the police are going to get 30,000 drones across the USA to surveillance everything.

There are those sayings that a well armed populace keeps the government in check. A disarmed populace leads to tyranny.

[Guest Derek L]

Yeah insurgencies favour the little guys as long as you don't mind the fact that they tend to get slaughtered in vast numbers before they can achieve their end. Guess you're hoping you'd be one of the lucky ones.

“Give me Liberty or give me Death” were the words uttered by Patrick Henry, an early leader in the American Revolution, that lead a small force to recapture shot and powder seized by the British…..A few years later, a bunch of guys wearing wigs thought it a good idea that the “People” should have all the shot and powder they want…….

[bush_cheney2004]

.....A few years later, a bunch of guys wearing wigs thought it a good idea that the “People” should have all the shot and powder they want…….

Yes, as the power of American government comes from the governed. There is no "Crown", no monarchy, no subjugation by Parliament. Many Canadians (and Americans) do not understand this fundamental concept.

Edited December 17, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Black Dog]

There are those sayings that a well armed populace keeps the government in check. A disarmed populace leads to tyranny.

One wonders why places like England, Japan and Australia haven't succumbed yet.

“Give me Liberty or give me Death” were the words uttered by Patrick Henry, an early leader in the American Revolution, that lead a small force to recapture shot and powder seized by the British…..A few years later, a bunch of guys wearing wigs thought it a good idea that the “People” should have all the shot and powder they want…….

Cool story.

[cybercoma]

Twelve Eleven Facts About US Gun Violence (details in link)

1. Shooting sprees are not rare in the US
   
2. 15 of the 25 worst mass shootings in the last 50 years took place in the US
   
3. Lots of guns don't necessarily mean lots of shootings, as can be seen with Israel and Switzerland. (Details in article)
   
4. Of the 11 deadliest shootings in the US 5 happened since 2007.
   
5. America is an unusually violent country, but not as violent as it used to be.
   
6. The South is the most violent region in the US.
   
7. Gun ownership in the US is declining overall.
   
8. More guns tend to mean more homicides.
   
9. States with stricter gun-control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.
   
10. Gun control has not been politically popular
    
11. But particular policies to control guns often are
    
12. Shootings don't tend to substantially affect views on gun control.
    

[Guest Derek L]

Yes, as the power of American government comes from the governed. There is no "Crown", no monarchy, no subjugation by Parliament. Many Canadians (and Americans) do not understand this fundamental concept.

Exactly, as such, any attempts at “tougher gun control” will ultimately fail or force the current Administration to forgo Constitutional Rights……….Not a good thing.

[GostHacked]

One wonders why places like England, Japan and Australia haven't succumbed yet.

As pointed out, it's part of American culture with the love of firearms. It is not part of the culture in the other countries you mentioned.

But let's look at England. More CCTV cameras per capita than anywhere else on the planet. A disarmed population, but that does not mean there is no violence in those countries. We can look at the school tuition protests in the UK as an example that one does not need guns.

So if we get rid of our guns, will the police then get rid of theirs? I think we all know the answer to that question.

Edited December 17, 2012 by GostHacked

[bush_cheney2004]

2. 15 of the 25 worst mass shootings in the last 50 years took place in the US

This is patently false and obviously untrue given the history of world-wide "mass shootings" going back to 1962. It's not even close to being true.

[Black Dog]

As pointed out, it's part of American culture with the love of firearms. It is not part of the culture in the other countries you mentioned.

So in a country that loves firearms, the people need firearms to defend themselves form the government in case the government tries to take their firearms. Ooooookkaaaaaay.

But let's look at England. More CCTV cameras per capita than anywhere else on the planet. A disarmed population, but that does not mean there is no violence in those countries. We can look at the school tuition protests in the UK as an example that one does not need guns.

Not sure what your point is here. The issue is whether an armed populace is a necessary check on tyranny. I think that's a fantasy.

So if we get rid of our guns, will the police then get rid of theirs? I think we all know the answer to that question.

So you need guns in case you need to shoot a cop?

[Guest Derek L]

1. Gun control has not been politically popular
   

Enough said.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Derek L

[bush_cheney2004]

Talk of more gun control will only lead to a rush to buy more guns and ammunition.

[Guest Derek L]

Talk of more gun control will only lead to a rush to buy more guns and ammunition.

And apparently “pre ban sales pricing” :

http://www.brownells.com/magazines/rifle-magazines/magazines/ar-15-m16-pmag-polymer-magazine-10-pak-prod42583.aspx

MAGPUL - AR-15/M16 PMAG POLYMER MAGAZINE 10-PAK $125

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Centerfire-Rifles/Semiautomatic%7C/pc/104792580/c/105522480/sc/105524280/Bushmaster-Firearms-AR-15-Rifles/1143590.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshooting-centerfire-rifles-semiautomatic%2F_%2FN-1102333%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_105524280%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253BMMcat104792580%253Bcat105522480&WTz_l=SBC%3BMMcat104792580%3Bcat105522480%3Bcat105524280

Bushmaster Firearms AR-15 Rifles sale price: $729.99........

[guyser]

No it wasn't "irked off",

It appeared so and still does from this response. So be it.

just an observation that some members were posting criticisms based on their own national or provincial frameworks.

Just like......an American might post "criticisms based on their own national or provincial frameworks (state?)

Why? Canadians are famous for flatly rejecting "American-style" anything, then bitching about paying higher prices.

Not going to happen, as Canada's banking rules would dry up capital. It's one of the main reasons you have so much foreign investment and no domestic car make, unique among G8 nations.

Why?

Because it would appear that in banking and in some other areas, we have been doing fantastic work.

The recession, banking.....there is more.

But it is true plenty of countries are watching, including Wall St (not a country of course) ....Mark Carney anyone?

[bush_cheney2004]

...Because it would appear that in banking and in some other areas, we have been doing fantastic work.

The recession, banking.....there is more.

"Fantastic work" in Canadian banking means opening the doors to lots of foreign investment, taking American TARP funds, and watching the US Fed.

[GostHacked]

So in a country that loves firearms, the people need firearms to defend themselves form the government in case the government tries to take their firearms. Ooooookkaaaaaay.

Governments love control over you, forcing you to hand over your guns is part of that control. People who want to keep their guns are not willing to let government take complete control of their lives. All in the name of keeping us safe.

Not sure what your point is here. The issue is whether an armed populace is a necessary check on tyranny. I think that's a fantasy.

When people don't fight back against government tyranny they are accepting the tyranny being placed on them. In the USA a view would be that if the population is unarmed, then the government can coerce you into anything. This latest shooting has and will be used for political gain from Obama and others who want to call for a gun ban.

So you need guns in case you need to shoot a cop?

You missed the point. The reason the police are militarized is because of the culture towards guns in the USA. If there was not this gun culture then one can argue there would be no reason to continue militarizing the police. Even if all the civilian guns were banned, do you think they would reduce their need for guns?

[Wilber]

You missed the point. The reason the police are militarized is because of the culture towards guns in the USA. If there was not this gun culture then one can argue there would be no reason to continue militarizing the police. Even if all the civilian guns were banned, do you think they would reduce their need for guns?

Hard to say, the majority of UK police don't carry them. In reality, there are so many guns loose in the US that the answer would be no.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Wilber

[Black Dog]

Governments love control over you, forcing you to hand over your guns is part of that control. People who want to keep their guns are not willing to let government take complete control of their lives. All in the name of keeping us safe.

The only people allowed to adopt that p.o.v without being total hypocrites are people who live completely off the grid.

When people don't fight back against government tyranny they are accepting the tyranny being placed on them. In the USA a view would be that if the population is unarmed, then the government can coerce you into anything.

Are we talking about a worldview that exists among certain nutjobs or the validity thereof? Because if it's the former: I know. If it's the latter: it's nuts.

This latest shooting has and will be used for political gain from Obama and others who want to call for a gun ban.

I'll bet you $500 that Obama will not ask for a gun ban.

You missed the point. The reason the police are militarized is because of the culture towards guns in the USA. If there was not this gun culture then one can argue there would be no reason to continue militarizing the police. Even if all the civilian guns were banned, do you think they would reduce their need for guns?

The real question is whether there's any truth to the notion that an armed population is a deterrent to tyranny. I don't think there's any evidence that that is the case.