Mass shooting

[Wilber]

I've never made a "good balance between gun ownership and public safety" judgement - that would be you, and I quoted you - so your presumptions about what I find "just right" are simply a pathetic attempt to make what you said about me.

Both our countries have decided that our citizens can have access to firearms and accept the risk that involves. In my opinion, we have come closer to getting it right than you have. I don't know what you stand for because you have never made it clear, so take a stand and debate it.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Wilber

[GostHacked]

Says the poster who first said:

The idiocy irony is priceless. a thousand times over

Oh there is irony alright...

Alright, you don't want to deal with the societal issues. I get that. Real tough questions that require some critical thought is definitely not your forte. Instead focusing on the stuff that does not matter or is irrelevant to what the real issue is. But nooo, I am a Canadian, I cannot possibly make a comment about American society, right?

I am glad you don't represent Americans on the whole, while complaining to Canadians that they don't have the right story or line of thinking just because someone is from another country. Look at it for what it is. Your American pride is getting in your way of using your brain for once. If you had any valid opinions on that, we would have already seen it. Other posters have taken you to task, and you scamper off like a little spoiled brat.

Let's get back to the topic, and I would like to focus on society on the whole and how gun culture is perceived. Because this won't go away unless we collectively deal with those issues. Ignoring them won't make them go away. Banning guns won't make the issue go away. Restrictions might help, but they would not have in this case as the guns were legally owned by someone in that family. So gun restriction/control failed in this case as well.

[Guest American Woman]

You said my opinion was invalid since I wasn't an American. When I point out Americans with that opinion you simply dismiss them as well. Clearly no one has any valid opinions other than you and whomever agrees with you.

No I didn't. I said don't presume to speak for/of Americans - I didn't say it was because you aren't an America; as for the "American" who shares your opinion, I have no idea what he's said, so I did not "dismiss it" - simply pointed out the flaw in your assumption that because someone is "paid to speak for Americans" that everything they say is "valid." In other words, just because someone is an American, it doesn't mean that they speak for "Americans" - and I'm sure your refusal to answer my questions is evidence of your agreement (regarding "Canadians").

[xul]

Yep. And gun access was easier 20, 30, 50 years ago. But nobody was shooting up schools. Anyone who focuses on guns doesn't get the bug picture.

I bet there were less anti-terrorism security messures in American ariports and there were less terroristic attacks in America many decades ago, so the new security measures US applied today are totally useless.

[xul]

Someone with a gun may have shortended the killing spree.

The someone also needs a bullet proof vest like the gunman's for having an even chance...

[bush_cheney2004]

.... In other words, just because someone is an American, it doesn't mean that they speak for "Americans" - and I'm sure your refusal to answer my questions is evidence of your agreement (regarding "Canadians").

Agreed....we post individual opinions based an authentic American experience from a population exceeding 320,000,000. Not only do we not speak for all Americans, it is also profoundly absurd for wannabe Canadians to do so as well. Both Americans and Canadians are shocked by what happened in a single school on a single day, but the difference is that the Americans know it is not what defines them. Some Canadians defines themselves by observing and passing judgement on what happens in the USA....it is essential for them to make such smug/superior differentiations, lest the Canadian identity not exist as much different from Americans.

If Americans dare mention horrific Canadian crimes committed with or without guns, we are dismissed because there's is a "reasonable" and "balanced" level of death and misery.

Edited December 15, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

It is a societal affect. The more guns present, the more people are going to use them criminally. It doesn't matter if everyone who owns one is a fine upstanding citizen. If all fine, upstanding citizens own guns then it's real easy for the rest to get hold of them.

Then explain Switzerland……Under their Canton Militia system, the vast majority of people have actual full auto/select fire weapons, constituting an actual “assault weapon”, within their homes as opposed to a semi auto black, scary looking rifles like those used in the last several publicized shootings………Why aren’t the Swiss knocking each other off, left, right and center?

Which gun has killed more people:

One Is a “semi auto” utilized for put holes in gophers, paper and tin cans, the other has helped subdue entire races, countries and cultures…………..

So once you’ve banned the “evil semi auto baby killers” , and people still shoot people, does grandpa’s SMLE become a “deadly sniper rifle”?

[bush_cheney2004]

I bet there were less anti-terrorism security messures in American ariports and there were less terroristic attacks in America many decades ago, so the new security measures US applied today are totally useless.

No, as the term "terrorism" applied retro-actively would find many such "attacks" going back to at least Civil War times (Harpers Ferry). More recent aircraft hijackings were a huge problem in the 1970's for the U.S. The private Pinkerton security services company was founded in the U.S. over 150 years ago to address such threats to government and private concerns.

[The_Squid]

The gun nut's obsession with Switzerland is misplaced. You don't do much research about it yourself and just believe some talking points from other gun nuts.

Here is some reality:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/mythbusting-israel-and-switzerland-are-not-gun-toting-utopias/

http://csgv2.blogspot.ca/2011/03/truth-about-guns-in-switzerland.html

Oh no! The Swiss are starting to leave their guns at the barracks! There goes a gun nut argument....

Edited December 15, 2012 by The_Squid

[Guest Derek L]

The mother doesn't have any history of mental illnesses. The guns were hers; registered in her name.

That’s what I’ve heard also. The entire region of New York, Connecticut and New Jersey, coupled with California and Illinois , have the strictest gun control laws in the entire United States……..I frequently purchase (legally) gun parts from a store in upstate New York, with in many cases, the store can ship said parts legally , as per the ATF and RCMP, to Canada, but can’t ship to purchasers within their own state…..

Clearly the Registry of “Assault weapons” and handguns, coupled with required background checks in this region of the US didn’t prevent the mentally disturbed son of the guns owner using them in this horrific event.

I wonder what his motive was……

[Guest Derek L]

The gun nut's obsession with Switzerland is misplaced. You don't do much research about it yourself and just believe some talking points from other gun nuts.

Here is some reality:

http://www.washingto...toting-utopias/

http://csgv2.blogspo...witzerland.html

Oh no! The Swiss are starting to leave their guns at the barracks! There goes a gun nut argument....

Did you read your second link?

In Switzerland, all able-bodied men between the ages of 18 and 30 are conscripted for three months and issued either an assault rifle or a 9mm pistol (the automatic or rapid-fire function is removed from these firearms so they fire only in semiautomatic mode) after completing basic military training. These firearms are kept in the home and are to be used only for military purposes, not for sports shooting or personal defense. After initial training, members of the militia are required to do three or four weeks of military service a year until they have served a total of 260 days or reached age 34. Additionally, a law enacted in 2008 requires all army ammunition issued to militia members to be stored in a central arsenal. This citizen’s militia complements a small number of full-time military personnel to constitute Switzerland’s army.

Many Swiss men buy their service firearms after they finish military service. Since January 2010, however, they are required to obtain a permit to do so, and must provide some justification for keeping the gun.

And:

In the United States, military weapons are more strictly controlled than in Switzerland. The National Guard and the regular Army are armed by the federal government and service members are not allowed—under any circumstances—to bring their weapons home or use them for personal self-defense.

And in Israel:

[punked]

Did you read your second link?

And:

And in Israel:

Yah Israel has no problem at all with their people killing one another. None at all.

[Guest Derek L]

Yah Israel has no problem at all with their people killing one another. None at all.

How many serving members of the IDF have taken their service M-16/M-4 or Uzi (actual assault weapons, not sporter Semi-autos) and hosed down a Kindergarten class?

[The_Squid]

You didn't read how some provinces in Switzerland are now requiring the weapons be left at the barracks due to some recent violence. Also, handguns are strictly controlled.

Not the gun nut paradise that you think it is.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Perhaps this is a society thing and one should ask why the kids of today are shooting each other and not tin cans in a gravel pit…………..

Well, boomer kids certainly shot each other with many different things, but few were deadly. The most famous and serious line not to be crossed was with BB/pellet guns, not because of death, but because of blindness! We had slingshots (you can see one in Dennis the Menace's back pocket on American television), archery equipment with real arrows, .22 rifles, pump and CO₂ BB/pellet rifles and hand guns, pocket knives, switchblades...even brass knuckles.

Television programming was far more violent than today, as was media content in general. There was no "M" video game rating equivalent until the MPAA reluctantly did so in 1968 for films. There was a comic books code, but for a different reason.

[punked]

How many serving members of the IDF have taken their service M-16/M-4 or Uzi (actual assault weapons, not sporter Semi-autos) and hosed down a Kindergarten class?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/11/israeli-troops-accused-children-gaza

[Black Dog]

Then explain Switzerland……Under their Canton Militia system, the vast majority of people have actual full auto/select fire weapons, constituting an actual “assault weapon”, within their homes as opposed to a semi auto black, scary looking rifles like those used in the last several publicized shootings………Why aren’t the Swiss knocking each other off, left, right and center?

Who knows? What we do know is Americans are knocking each other off, left, right and center. So clearly they can't be trusted to have guns. Simple as that.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Clearly the Registry of “Assault weapons” and handguns, coupled with required background checks in this region of the US didn’t prevent the mentally disturbed son of the guns owner using them in this horrific event.

And it never will....the U.S. will now go through a very predictable and politicized effort to "control" and "ban" guns, but it will not change the fundamental dynamic. Gun crimes exploded in the U.K. and Australia after they disarmed lawful citizens.

[Guest Derek L]

You didn't read how some provinces in Switzerland are now requiring the weapons be left at the barracks due to some recent violence. Also, handguns are strictly controlled.

Not the gun nut paradise that you think it is.

But you said:

The gun nut's obsession with Switzerland is misplaced.

In Canada and the United States you can purchase a semi-auto Swiss Arms rifle for a cool $3800, and in Canada said rifle is non-restricted:

http://www.wanstallsonline.com/swiss-arms-black-special-railed-flat-top-.223.html

This model range consists of a strategic rifle family for multipurpose use for terrestrial, maritime and airborne assignments. Indirect gas operation with a rotating bolt is rugged and functionally dependable. It reduces the recoil to a minimum and guarantees the function even under the most extreme service conditions. Flip-up backup iron sights and a picatinny optic rail round out the package.

In Switzerland, young adults, the same age group as the recent shooter, are given by the state the actual full auto/select fire version to store in their homes…..How many school shootings do the Swiss have?

[bush_cheney2004]

Who knows? What we do know is Americans are knocking each other off, left, right and center. So clearly they can't be trusted to have guns. Simple as that.

Quite to the contrary, they will be trusted to have even more guns. The U.S. is not "'Fraidy Cat" Canada:

[Guest Derek L]

And it never will....the U.S. will now go through a very predictable and politicized effort to "control" and "ban" guns, but it will not change the fundamental dynamic. Gun crimes exploded in the U.K. and Australia after they disarmed lawful citizens.

The price of guns and ammo will sure go up though

Kinda glad I "contributed to your retirement" recently via a couple crates of federal 5.56 & 7.62.………..A local store has a special Christmas sale on Federal .308 FMJ……..$200 for a 240 round can……..Might have to partake, since it’s sure to go up quickly

[bush_cheney2004]

The price of guns and ammo will sure go up though

For sure...my son and I like to visit Cabella's over the holiday break, but now the crowd will be bigger !

Kinda glad I "contributed to your retirement" recently via a couple crates of federal 5.56 & 7.62.………..A local store has a special Christmas sale on Federal .308 FMJ……..$200 for a 240 round can……..Might have to partake, since it’s sure to go up quickly

Much obliged...many old men (and women) with gun powder stained hands appreciate it.

[cybercoma]

they have guns everywhere. And they have enormous poverty and inequality, far more than any other industrialized nation

In my opinion this is precisely the problem. It's not so much the access to guns alone that's the problem. Or even poverty itself. However, the combination of extremely easy access to guns and massive income inequality, coupled with a culture that looks down on the poor and idolizes the rich is a disastrous recipe.

[Guest American Woman]

.... a culture that looks down on the poor and idolizes the rich is a disastrous recipe.

Oh my. All the experts on American culture. Yes, we Americans look down on the poor and idolize the rich - which is likely why this young man from a rich family did what he did.

[bush_cheney2004]

In my opinion this is precisely the problem. It's not so much the access to guns alone that's the problem. Or even poverty itself. However, the combination of extremely easy access to guns and massive income inequality, coupled with a culture that looks down on the poor and idolizes the rich is a disastrous recipe.

Firearms ownership is very important to those who live in "poverty" and "massive income inequality" because of crimes committed by others in their own community. Doesn't explain why the rich and oh so egalitarian Canadians own so many firearms.

Edited December 15, 2012 by bush_cheney2004