Gay "in denial"....and Gay-to-straight theraphy

[Guest American Woman]

They're not gay....but it's how they think. It's how they "see" themselves.

Like an anorexic looks at herself in the mirror and see this fat person - but we know she's skin and bones - like she's just come back from the concentration camp.

"They're not gay." Correct. So therapy isn't making them "un-gay," any more than therapy makes an anorexic 'not fat.'

Therapy cannot make a homosexual "un-gay."

[betsy]

"They're not gay." Correct. So therapy isn't making them "un-gay," any more than therapy makes an anorexic 'not fat.'

Therapy cannot make a homosexual "un-gay."

Well if an aneroxic is helped by theraphy....she'll see that she is not fat. Same with the person-who's-not-really-gay-but-sees-himself-as-gay. He'll see that he's not gay. And he can perhaps go on about being the heterosexual that he actually is.

ha-ha-ha He was the heterosexual in denial!

[Mighty AC]

Betsy, let's just assume there are homosexuals that are comfortable with their attraction to the same sex and do not want to be changed. Do you have a problem with them marrying, starting a family, sharing benefits, being considered next of kin, etc?

[Guest American Woman]

Well if an aneroxic is helped by theraphy....she'll see that she is not fat. Same with the person-who's-not-really-gay-but-sees-himself-as-gay. He'll see that he's not gay. And he can perhaps go on about being the heterosexual that he actually is.

ha-ha-ha He was the heterosexual in denial!

He was the confused heterosexual. Not a homosexual.

But at least we seem to be in agreement that therapy only helps one discover who they really are - it doesn't change what they are. In other words, it doesn't make homosexuals "un-gay." Obviously anyone seeking therapy is having some problems, and the purpose of therapy is to help them work through those problems - not "make" them into something.

[guyser]

Like I said, make what you want of it. If you want to pursue that argument, make your own thread.

Translation: 'D'oh ! Tripped up on my own words.

When bandying about terms, just might be a wise idea to know what you are saying.

So far that is conclusively not the case, Keep on with the ignorance. It does appear a staple of religious zealots.

[Black Dog]

So there are still people who think sexuality is binary? Huh.

[GostHacked]

So there are still people who think sexuality is binary? Huh.

The 1 does go in the 0 .. right?

[WIP]

I would wager that some religious folks dislike gays for personal reasons just as some atheists do. You think every religious person believes what they do because the church tells them to? What about atheists, then - why do they believe what they do?

I didn't say they act the way they do because their church tells them to; but if the church teaches the homosexuality = sin doctrine, that is used to justify their other statements or actions.

But since you brought up Uganda, let's look at another country that hasn't been influenced by religion: "With the rise of the Communist Party, homosexuality became a symbol of Western vice and decadence. Though not officially banned, homosexual activity was forced underground. Homosexuals in China were often forced into heterosexual marriages, harrassed by police, imprisoned, and occassionally disappeared. Today homosexuals are still harassed by police, though it is believed that imprisonment is rare."

Again. It's not just the religious who "despise homos."

http://distributedre...under-communism

But, communism is a spent force in the world today, fundamentalist religions are not! And communism is not really an evidence-based philosophy to begin with. It may be materialistic, but it also has many of the trappings of religion also. It's likely that the success of communism depended on the 'cult of the emperor' movements that developed around Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and the Kims in North Korea.

Even in China, the Communist Party has lost its moral underpinnings in the age of capitalism. It's just about maintaining one party government control. Back in the days when Mao was in charge, every stupid idea he had, was followed to the letter...so, in the 1960's Cultural Revolution, he declared that there was famine because too many birds were eating the grain in the fields, and ordered that all birds be killed everywhere. So, when the Americans and other first westerners were visiting China in the early 70's, the thing that freaked them out most wasn't the millions of people dressed in the same Mao Jackets -- it was the eery quiet, because there were no birds anywhere! I assume that China recovered their bird populations at least a little after that lunacy of Mao, but the ecological repercussions may never have been set right afterwards. And, whatever Mao said in the past, he can't harm homosexuals today. I would suspect that these days, with the Communist Party facing riots in the streets and riots at sweatshop factories, they have much bigger fish to fry than worry about what gays are doing there.

[Mighty AC]

The 1 does go in the 0 .. right?

Depends on the location of the 0..some are reserved for priests.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Mighty AC

[Sleipnir]

They're not gay....but it's how they think. It's how they "see" themselves.

Like an anorexic looks at herself in the mirror and see this fat person - but we know she's skin and bones - like she's just come back from the concentration camp.

First you compared gay people to pedophile, now you're comparing gay people to fat and anorexic?

[WIP]

But what about children or young teens who'd been sexually abused by same-sex abusers (a coach, priest, teacher, etc..)......you think it's not possible that some of these children had grown up with some confusion as to their sexuality? If their abuser was a man - why wouldn't they be posibly confused that they could be gay?

Perhaps abusers (like Sandusky) even promoted the idea of having sex between same-sex as normal! You think a predator that's out to seduce and initiate an innocent into a sexual relationship wouldn't "sugar-coat" the experience?

Here, you are shifting the subject from whether adults who want their relationships recognized and receive the same respect that everyone else in society should have the same rights - to - whether young men need therapy after being sexually violated when they were children. Need I remind you that your side is the one that feeds the abuse! Because it's your side that shames homosexuals and drives them into the closet in the first place, where they may act out in unacceptable ways. And when abuse occurs, some churches respond with damage control, rather than dealing with the problem honestly:

Catholic Church Paying to Defend Convicted Child Molesters

[Bonam]

For something that should be a factual issue, there has been remarkably little (zero) scientific evidence presented throughout this thread. Either sexual orientation can change throughout one's lifetime, or it cannot. If it can change throughout one's lifetime, what factors can influence it.

Now, I happen to agree with cybercoma when he says that sexual orientation is not binary, but a spectrum. And, I think people can move where precisely they fall on that spectrum throughout their life. Let's say that on the axis between homosexual and heterosexual, one is close to the homosexual side but not 100% at the end. Well, let's say they happen to have a relationship with an opposite sex partner, and that relationship turns out to be very fulfilling, so much so that said individual couldn't imagine being in a relationship with someone else. You don't think said life experience would have changed that person's preferences, changed the way they think about their sexuality, in fact moved them on that spectrum of sexual orientation?

To me that seems like the default position, that, like almost every single other manifestation of human behavior, sexual orientation is a combined result of biological predisposition and life experiences. In order to believe that it is 100% pre-set biologically and completely unalterable through life experiences, I would need to see some solid scientific evidence demonstrating that.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Bonam

[betsy]

He was the confused heterosexual. Not a homosexual.

But at least we seem to be in agreement that therapy only helps one discover who they really are - it doesn't change what they are. In other words, it doesn't make homosexuals "un-gay." Obviously anyone seeking therapy is having some problems, and the purpose of therapy is to help them work through those problems - not "make" them into something.

Uhhh...partly, we agree. I wouldn't go as far as saying that therapy ONLY helps one discover who they really are. I cannot make an authoritative claim since I'm not a psychiatrist nor a psychologist. Besides, even if I am - we cannot say for sure....who knows what's about to be debunked, or discovered in the near future?

From evidences gathered through google, and personal info by moi ( and also Bryan), we know that some people can change. Now, we don't know the real history behind each and everyone of those people that we knew had changed from gay to straight, but they did change. The support group website I gave (peoplecanchange.com) - is a site made up of people who'd gone through that.

It's their testimony. Who are we to refute their own personal experiences?

One thing I know, it seems to work for some.

Edited December 11, 2012 by betsy

[Black Dog]

To me that seems like the default position, that, like almost every single other manifestation of human behavior, sexual orientation is a combined result of biological predisposition and life experiences. In order to believe that it is 100% pre-set biologically and completely unalterable through life experiences, I would need to see some solid scientific evidence demonstrating that.

I think your preference on any given time might change as a result of life experiences, but the fundamental fact of your attraction cannot. So if you're a guy who is attracted to men, but desperately wants to be straight, you're could very well sleep with women etc. But I doubt you'd be able to stop being attracted to men without a heaping dose of repression and self-hate.

[Bonam]

I think your preference on any given time might change as a result of life experiences, but the fundamental fact of your attraction cannot. So if you're a guy who is attracted to men, but desperately wants to be straight, you're could very well sleep with women etc. But I doubt you'd be able to stop being attracted to men without a heaping dose of repression and self-hate.

That is possible, but do you have any references to scientific evidence demonstrating that to be fact with a high degree of confidence? Moreover, even if the person in question remains attracted to men, but his attraction to women increases based on his experiences, then he would be moving on the orientation spectrum, towards something closer to bisexual, capable of being happy in either type of relationship. Just because a person is attracted to people outside their relationship doesn't mean they are unhappy.

[GostHacked]

Depends on the location of the 0..some are reserved for priests.

Yep, the ass in the corner laughing is me.

[Moonlight Graham]

Questions for everyone. Caution: rational thinking involved.

How do these so-called experts who say it's dangerous to do such theraphy know that ALL gays were "born" gay?

Rational thinking LOL. Psychologists don't say this. They say it's either genetic and/or environmental factors that determine a person's sexual preference.

That no one among these gay is truly unhappy about his gayness - since deep inside he might be truly a heterosexual?

Because you can't change your sexual preferences. It's a subconsious feeling, not a conscious choice. You can act gay or straight or whatever you want, but repressing your feelings and changing your behaviours to suit your perceived sexual identity will never change your subconsious feelings.

How do you know? Of course you don't. No one knows. These so-called experts don't either. They're dishing out self-serving BS for their own agenda.

Who's the one on here dishing out self-serving B.S.?

Your beliefs are really dangerous. Completely illogical, with little basis in science. I hope you don't have a child who is gay because the anguish they would feel based on their upbringing would be tremendous. It's beliefs like yours that cause mental illness in gay people, drive them to commit suicide, and make it hard for them to come out and be themselves in a world that accepts them. I have no patience for people with your mindset. I have no patience for religious extemists like yourself at all.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Moonlight Graham

[cybercoma]

But what about children or young teens who'd been sexually abused by same-sex abusers (a coach, priest, teacher, etc..)......you think it's not possible that some of these children had grown up with some confusion as to their sexuality? If their abuser was a man - why wouldn't they be posibly confused that they could be gay?

Perhaps abusers (like Sandusky) even promoted the idea of having sex between same-sex as normal! You think a predator that's out to seduce and initiate an innocent into a sexual relationship wouldn't "sugar-coat" the experience?

Shame on you for once again comparing homosexuality to pedophilia. This kind of logic is completely ignorant. People do not become "gay" because they were molested as children, any more than a man raping a little girl would make her straight. What a vile, disgusting notion.

[cybercoma]

Here is an excerpt of a victim impact statement:

[/i]

http://proicehockey....t-Statement.htm

Of course, not all victims end up dealing with drugs and sex addiction. The crime may be the same....but that's all. How it happened, to whom it happened, the circumstances, etc.., all play a role on the impact it gives to the victim.

How it impacts a minor differs individually BECAUSE THESE VICTIMS ARE SEPARATE INDIVIDUALS!

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0

So as you can see....it's not all so simple as you guys (mis)understand it. You should try to look farther than the tip of your noses.

Your posts on this topic, attempting to link sexual abuse of children to homosexuality is completely disgusting. I demand an apology for this kind of ignorant and hateful posting.

[cybercoma]

I have no doubt that some homosexuals are unhappy about being born gay.

Do you believe there are straight people that are unhappy about being born straight?

Of course. In fact, it's almost unthinkable.

I have no doubt in my mind that some homosexuals wish they weren't gay, so they could stop facing the kind of reprehensible and abhorrent persecution that people like betsy thrust upon them. Indeed, a larger proportion of homosexuals than straight teens find the abuse so intolerable that they would rather be dead than gay, so they kill themselves.

I completely agree with your rejection of the claim that they don't want to be gay because they would rather be straight; it's that they would rather not be abused by society any more.

[The_Squid]

well said CC.

There have certainly been some disgusting things said and insinuated by Betsy in this thread....

[Sleipnir]

Your beliefs are really dangerous. Completely illogical, with little basis in science. I hope you don't have a child who is gay because the anguish they would feel based on their upbringing would be tremendous. It's beliefs like yours that cause mental illness in gay people, drive them to commit suicide, and make it hard for them to come out and be themselves in a world that acceptst them. I have no patience for people with your mindset. I have no patience for religious extemists like yourself at all.

This forums needs a 'like' feature.

[cybercoma]

For something that should be a factual issue, there has been remarkably little (zero) scientific evidence presented throughout this thread. Either sexual orientation can change throughout one's lifetime, or it cannot. If it can change throughout one's lifetime, what factors can influence it.

Now, I happen to agree with cybercoma when he says that sexual orientation is not binary, but a spectrum. And, I think people can move where precisely they fall on that spectrum throughout their life. Let's say that on the axis between homosexual and heterosexual, one is close to the homosexual side but not 100% at the end. Well, let's say they happen to have a relationship with an opposite sex partner, and that relationship turns out to be very fulfilling, so much so that said individual couldn't imagine being in a relationship with someone else. You don't think said life experience would have changed that person's preferences, changed the way they think about their sexuality, in fact moved them on that spectrum of sexual orientation?

To me that seems like the default position, that, like almost every single other manifestation of human behavior, sexual orientation is a combined result of biological predisposition and life experiences. In order to believe that it is 100% pre-set biologically and completely unalterable through life experiences, I would need to see some solid scientific evidence demonstrating that.

The issue is that homosexuality is defined here as a problem, a disorder, a dysfunction. It's being defined as something that needs to be fixed when its an appetitive desire. There's nothing wrong with being attracted to someone of the same sex or even having sexual relationships with people of the same sex. Nor does it mean that if you do, you're defined by that, so you must always have sex with people of the same sex. Some gay people may have a few straight relationships, then many gay relationships throughout their life. Some straight people may have "dabbled" in homosexuality, but then later only have straight relationships. Some people are attracted to both the same and opposite sex equally. Not only is sexuality not binary, but it's also not on a spectrum when you really get into it. It's a series of concurrent drives and desires. You're not permanently anything and it's certainly not disgusting, unhealthy, or wrong to be attracted to people of the same sex. We need to stop ostracizing, stigmatizing, and oppressing people when they do feel this way.

[cybercoma]

....and it's time to trot this thing out again. This time the improved v2.0 for your educational needs.

Link to the article with explanations that I don't feel like giving.

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2012/03/the-genderbread-person-v2-0/

[Guest American Woman]

Uhhh...partly, we agree. I wouldn't go as far as saying that therapy ONLY helps one discover who they really are. I cannot make an authoritative claim since I'm not a psychiatrist nor a psychologist. Besides, even if I am - we cannot say for sure....who knows what's about to be debunked, or discovered in the near future?

From evidences gathered through google, and personal info by moi ( and also Bryan), we know that some people can change.

People can change their behaviors, yes, but they don't become "un-gay." They don't lose their attraction to the same sex, only to replace it with an attraction to the opposite sex - any more than people could be counselled to become gay. But the question is - why should they change?

Now, we don't know the real history behind each and everyone of those people that we knew had changed from gay to straight, but they did change.

Their behavior changed, yes. But again, why should it have to change? Any more than heterosexuals' behavior should change?

The support group website I gave (peoplecanchange.com) - is a site made up of people who'd gone through that. It's their testimony. Who are we to refute their own personal experiences?

Why is there even such a website? Why would people even give such "testimony," if they hadn't felt as if they needed to change?

One thing I know, it seems to work for some.

What "works?" Denying their natural instincts in order to be accepted by society?