Unions Using Teachers Using Students

[Boges]

Dalton's quit but he still is talking junk.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1309503--dalton-mcguinty-warns-teachers-who-haven-t-signed-new-contracts

“Ontario teachers are among the highest-paid in North America and have better working conditions,” McGuinty said the day before Education Minister Laurel Broten holds a news conference to outline her “path forward” under Bill 115, which allows the government to impose contracts on teachers and school boards as of Jan. 1.

Public teacher unions say the law violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms by curbing their collective bargaining rights and are challenging it in court, a process that could take years.

“Our preference has always been one of negotiated settlements. But after 10 months, the bargaining deadline has passed,” McGuinty added.

Should be interesting to see what they do tomorrow.

[August1991]

With regards to Auguste's post - the idea that teachers will be replaced with computers is maybe a little interesting but ultimately just a sci-fi fantasy. They thought that when television came in, too. Personal services is necessary in many jobs and teaching is at the top of that list.

Hell, we still don't have automated manufacturing at this point.

Michael, computers have not replaced bank tellers since, well, bank tellers still exist.

More pertinent to the issue, banks can now measure better productivity. Education is still a 1970s world of professional baseball. (Have you seen/read Moneyball?) Banks, and even baseball, have moved on.

----

Offhand, I would say that many teachers are living in the world of a bank teller, circa 1958.

Edited January 3, 2013 by August1991

[Boges]

Breaking News on the Radio says that contracts will be imposed.

Let the games begin!

[Boges]

They'll impose a contract then repeal Bill 115 so it's not a symbolic lighting rod anymore.

This is certainly a Half-Measure.

[Mighty AC]

If a private company must achieve a cost savings of X to continue operating and cannot reach a deal with the union, they are free to close their doors and shut down. The government cannot do this so what option do they have?

In my opinion, the contract is very reasonable. The government is protecting education, class sizes and jobs. Ample time for negotiation has been provided and the government has been flexible in several areas. Since, the boomer bubble issue will imminently cause a simultaneous increase in demand for services and drop in government revenue, the government absolutely must trim the fat in all areas. Thus, I have no problem with the imposition of this contract.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, computers have not replaced bank tellers since, well, bank tellers still exist.

That's a terrible counter-example. Computers and robots also replace industrial assembly, that doesn't mean that they will replace prostitutes this year. Please enjoy the hyperbole.

More pertinent to the issue, banks can now measure better productivity. Education is still a 1970s world of professional baseball. (Have you seen/read Moneyball?) Banks, and even baseball, have moved on.

What about restaurants ? You won't see an automated order station at a high-end restaurant any time soon.

So, yes, there are further opportunities for automation of jobs but anything with deep personal interactions (teaching, daycare, direct personal services) are at the very bottom of the list.

By the time teachers are automated, our economy will already have been transformed in terms of our political economy and money systems.

[Boges]

You'd think more people would want to comment on this issue. The issue has finally come to a head. Anymore work stoppage will be seen as illegal according to the minister today.

[Michael Hardner]

You'd think more people would want to comment on this issue. The issue has finally come to a head. Anymore work stoppage will be seen as illegal according to the minister today.

I see them working to rule for the foreseeable future. If not, they could defy the law and head to court for a long time. We can only wait to see how it plays out.

[Mighty AC]

I hope they choose a wiser course, as it's hard to make the "we are putting students first" claim while denying them volunteer service. However, I also expect to see them work to rule for the remainder of the school year. I get the anger; giving ground is tough. Even if it's required, the new contract is reasonable and the old one exorbitant.

If I ran the union circus I would encourage teachers to return to their regular roles and set out to build a more positive image. Maybe even use some of the millions they collect to run positive ads between negotiation periods highlighting the great work teachers do and all the volunteer tasks they perform.

[Big Guy]

The challenge is that not all teachers are of the same view. In a typical secondary school, only a minority of the teaching staff does get involved in extra-curricular activities. For that reason the majority has no problem in voting for stopping this “volunteer” process. If only those teachers who are involved in those activities were allowed a vote, I think that the results would be quite different. Most of those who had been involved (like those teaching PHE, Music, Art, Family Studies, Technical subjects etc) consider those after school activities as co-curricular and part of their job. Extra pressure might be applied by parents in the community who are prepared to coach and/or supervise but discouraged by a few militant teachers and board safety policies which require at least one teacher supervisor for insurance reasons. It will be interesting to see how the dedicated teachers react.

It may be difficult for the union to rationalize not doing extra-curricular supervision when a contract is in place, the bill is rescinded and the Liberal party no longer forms the government. If it’s not about the money, not about the contract and not about Bill 115 then what is it about?

[Boges]

I heard on the news this morning that Harinder Tahkar, a Liberal leadership candidate, would eliminate 3% of non-essential teaching jobs.

The number I've heard multiple times yesterday is that since Dalton has been in power the ranks of teachers has swelled by 13,000 while enrollment is down 250,000 or so.

Those are pretty damning numbers.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Boges

[Mighty AC]

They have added all day kindergarten and have lowered class sizes so it makes sense. That lower teacher to student ratio could be partly responsible for the gains made in education during Dalton's reign.

What are non-essential teaching jobs? Does that statement mean Tahkar deems 3% of all teaching positions non-essential and will trim them? Or does he deem certain types of support positions non-essential and will trim 3% of those?

[PIK]

A teacher that I know said they were ready to sign, but the word from the bigwigs in TO was no you will not.

[punked]

A teacher that I know said they were ready to sign, but the word from the bigwigs in TO was no you will not.

No teacher in their right mind was going to sign onto losing all their banked sick days. Sorry to tell you, that was the sicking point and why the government was never going to reach a deal.

[Boges]

No teacher in their right mind was going to sign onto losing all their banked sick days. Sorry to tell you, that was the sicking point and why the government was never going to reach a deal.

Catholic and French teachers made a deal that was the framework for the imposed deal, I believe. I don't think all the sick days were removed. There were some furlough or Dalton Days thrown in that I doubt they're happy about.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Boges

[punked]

Catholic and French teachers made a deal that was the framework for the imposed deal, I believe. I don't think all the sick days were removed. There were some furlough or Dalton Days thrown in that I doubt they're happy about.

Both of those boards have parasite clauses. They make the deal but with an asterisks that they get ANY OTHER DEAL made with ANY OTHER school board if they so choose. That isn't the same thing and you know it.

[Boges]

Well with an imposed deal to the rest of the teachers it doesn't look like that "parasite clause" will be used unless the courts overturn the imposed deal and force the province to go to arbitration.

[punked]

Well with an imposed deal to the rest of the teachers it doesn't look like that "parasite clause" will be used unless the courts overturn the imposed deal and force the province to go to arbitration.

Not the point. It is easy to sign a deal when you know someone else is going to fight for a better deal for you.

[Boges]

It's also easy to include a clause like that when you know you'll draft legislation to impose a similar deal to any union that doesn't play ball.

[punked]

It's also easy to include a clause like that when you know you'll draft legislation to impose a similar deal to any union that doesn't play ball.

So what you are saying is you don't actually think these school boards got fair bargaining they knew the government wasn't there to make a deal they were there to make teachers take the deal. Seems crazy to me. BTW NS just had the teachers sign a 0% wage increase contract for 3 years with bargaining it is to bad the Conservatives and Liberals seem to hate the idea of sitting at a table to talking to these people as people instead of making demands of them. I bet they could have gotten a similar deal and no one would have suffered.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

In my opinion, the contract is very reasonable. The government is protecting education, class sizes and jobs. Ample time for negotiation has been provided and the government has been flexible in several areas. Since, the boomer bubble issue will imminently cause a simultaneous increase in demand for services and drop in government revenue, the government absolutely must trim the fat in all areas. Thus, I have no problem with the imposition of this contract.

How about charging the boomers more, since they aren't paying enough into the system to support their entitlements... the younger generations have to...

[MiddleClassCentrist]

They have added all day kindergarten and have lowered class sizes so it makes sense. That lower teacher to student ratio could be partly responsible for the gains made in education during Dalton's reign.

What are non-essential teaching jobs? Does that statement mean Tahkar deems 3% of all teaching positions non-essential and will trim them? Or does he deem certain types of support positions non-essential and will trim 3% of those?

"Teacher" Librarian - Staff with a regular librarian... cheaper.

Guidance "Teacher" - Staff with a social worker. Guidance isn't teaching, it's just helping students sign up for courses based on their goal.

Student Success "Teacher" - Tracks down and talks to students who are missing classes, tries to arrange work to be completed. Probably some child/youth worker would be better and cheaper here.

Working at those could easily take away 3%.

We could probably also get rid of Phys. Ed teachers and just bring in personal trainers. Mostly because there is no work involved with Phys. Ed. (no outside marking or prep work required, students prep the gym and marking is done by observation) It shouldn't be paid the same rate as teaching. Then, offer salaried coaching positions to bump up the trainers salary. Potentially lowers cost and benefits public as extracurriculars become part of a job description.

Edited January 4, 2013 by MiddleClassCentrist

[August1991]

That's a terrible counter-example. Computers and robots also replace industrial assembly, that doesn't mean that they will replace prostitutes this year. Please enjoy the hyperbole.

....

What about restaurants ? You won't see an automated order station at a high-end restaurant any time soon.

So, yes, there are further opportunities for automation of jobs but anything with deep personal interactions (teaching, daycare, direct personal services) are at the very bottom of the list.

By the time teachers are automated, our economy will already have been transformed in terms of our political economy and money systems.

Hyperbole aside, I disagree. Moneyball is good evidence that service industries (ie. baseball) can be measured.

Michael, teachers/education operate in a world of measurement typical of baseball in the 1970s. Modern education is extremely backward, even medieval, and the cardinal rule of unions, seniority, is typical of the backwardness.

"Teacher" Librarian - Staff with a regular librarian... cheaper.

Guidance "Teacher" - Staff with a social worker. Guidance isn't teaching, it's just helping students sign up for courses based on their goal.

Student Success "Teacher" - Tracks down and talks to students who are missing classes, tries to arrange work to be completed. Probably some child/youth worker would be better and cheaper here.

Working at those could easily take away 3%.

Much more than 3%.

The standard operating procedure of anyone (lazy, smart, jaded) in a public sector bureaucracy is to create/find a job where you have no contact with the public, or the contact is on your terms. North American public education is nowadays rife with various people who control how students see them, or who never see students at all.

A teller in a bank cannot control who arrives at the wicket. This is the essence of service; it is customer driven.

More generally, the money coming into Canada's education system is not connected to the money going out. Such systems are typically not sustainable in the long term.

[Michael Hardner]

Hyperbole aside, I disagree. Moneyball is good evidence that service industries (ie. baseball) can be measured.

Michael, teachers/education operate in a world of measurement typical of baseball in the 1970s. Modern education is extremely backward, even medieval, and the cardinal rule of unions, seniority, is typical of the backwardness.

Much more than 3%.

.

I think now I was not reading what you were posting. Anyway, we are talking about measurement now - I can see that.

You're right. Measurement doesn't happen in the way you mention, because people accept the status quo.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Michael, teachers/education operate in a world of measurement typical of baseball in the 1970s. Modern education is extremely backward, even medieval, and the cardinal rule of unions, seniority, is typical of the backwardness.

Much more than 3%.

The standard operating procedure of anyone (lazy, smart, jaded) in a public sector bureaucracy is to create/find a job where you have no contact with the public, or the contact is on your terms. North American public education is nowadays rife with various people who control how students see them, or who never see students at all.

A teller in a bank cannot control who arrives at the wicket. This is the essence of service; it is customer driven.

More generally, the money coming into Canada's education system is not connected to the money going out. Such systems are typically not sustainable in the long term.

I wouldn't say that teachers are in a baby boom to post baby boom world of measurement. People respected them back then. Now they continue to do what used to be done as goodwill, for respect (coaching, clubs, etc.) but, without getting the respect.

Education delivery is changing. With information at our fingertips, student learning can be much more independent. From talking with teachers, there are a few problems with this model as a single basis of learning

• it requires a drive to learn new information for interest, something that often hasn't been fostered at home by parents
  
• it takes way more time to accomplish student empowered learning (collaborative or student driven)
  
• Students require ambition to achieve, students without ambition to achieve get less out of this model
  
• It costs more money to implement. Access to technology, consumable materials and larger classrooms.
  

If you want to change the way we educate, it takes time and money. That's on the government and voters, not the teachers. The problem is that making the system cheaper, and making the system more efficient and effective are not the same.

Edited January 5, 2013 by MiddleClassCentrist