punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 So your position is that the conservatives didn't lie, they just suck at explaining themselves? Nope because the very questions was put to the in 2011. Instead we got this. "I'm not going to get into a lengthy debate on numbers," Prime Minister Stephen Harper said at a news conference in Toronto. He said the F-35 is the "only option available" to replace the aging CF-18 fleet and to serve the purposes of the Canadian Forces. If it was the only option available then what are they doing right now? Seems like a bit of a lie to me. We also got this. “The $7 billion is a very well-educated estimate of what it will cost to support the aircraft for 20 years.” Conservative MP Laurie Hawn in the House of Commons The report that is due out is going to put that number somewhere in the 20 Billion dollar range. But maybe it was a miscommunication issue. I can't see how it was considering this issue has been going on for 5 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The report that is due out is going to put that number somewhere in the 20 Billion dollar range. No, see, you're either misunderstanding, or deliberately misrepresenting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Look folks the guys that say they can deliver a flying Arrow II by 2017 and be able to replace the CF18 fleet on schedule in 2020. All they want is fifty million to finish the plans, and do that within one year. Is it not worth that? To keep all those tax dollars here in Canada.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kward Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 OK...what will Canada use to bomb Iraqis, Serbs, or Libyans in 25 years ? What kind of bombs we talking about here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kward Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 We need something. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Look folks the guys that say they can deliver a flying Arrow II by 2017 and be able to replace the CF18 fleet on schedule in 2020. All they want is fifty million to finish the plans, and do that within one year. Is it not worth that? To keep all those tax dollars here in Canada.... And how would they compare to a modern fighter? This company is stating they can bring a fighter that has been obsolete for 5 decades to a fighter that is modern in 5 years with a cost of 50 million? The plans are irrelevant if the plane is loaded with 50 year old technology nor are they of any value if we still have to spend hundreds of billions of dollars research and developing all the equipment within the aircraft. If it was that simple the F35 would have been done years ago and at much cheaper, you want the best or you want an aircraft that was obsolete decades ago and will need substantial investment to bring it up to speed, investment Canada cannot afford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Why? Because we should have the ability to at least police our own airspace, I would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) Why? Because Its hard to be in NORAD if the Americans are the only participants with Aircraft, its also hard to escort passenger aircraft to an airport when needed if you have no reliable aircraft... we depend on the US for a lot as it is, we should not have to ask them to protect our airspace because we don't want to invest the money to do it ourselves. Edited December 8, 2012 by Signals.Cpl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kward Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Look folks the guys that say they can deliver a flying Arrow II by 2017 and be able to replace the CF18 fleet on schedule in 2020. All they want is fifty million to finish the plans, and do that within one year. Is it not worth that? To keep all those tax dollars here in Canada.... Yeah, all they want is fifty million taxpayer dollars. A dime spent on conventional war machines is too much. What a waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Yeah, all they want is fifty million taxpayer dollars. A dime spent on conventional war machines is too much. What a waste. Should we invest in nukes instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kward Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Because we should have the ability to at least police our own airspace, I would think. To what end? Can you quantify the policing? You're talking about an endless money pit spent on a notion that will never be achieved. Canada is so vast you could sink a hefty portion of the GDP into "policing our airspace" and still have loopholes to be taken advantage of. If you chase after some arbitrary feeling of "security" you will forever chase, and lose billions if not trillions in the process. See: the War on Terror Diplomacy works, and it's cheap. Beyond that, being an economic power, and an attractive place for people to invest will render Canada un-attackable by nation states when we're important to their bottom line. Of course, there will always be non-nation-state ideologue terrorists - no amount of money spent on conventional war machines will ever change that, nor will they ever fully erase the threat. So why waste Canada's money trying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 No one is asking for unlimited money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 What kind of bombs we talking about here? The kind that Canada buys from U.S. defense contractors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 To what end? Can you quantify the policing? You're talking about an endless money pit spent on a notion that will never be achieved. Canada is so vast you could sink a hefty portion of the GDP into "policing our airspace" and still have loopholes to be taken advantage of. If you chase after some arbitrary feeling of "security" you will forever chase, and lose billions if not trillions in the process. See: the War on Terror Diplomacy works, and it's cheap. Beyond that, being an economic power, and an attractive place for people to invest will render Canada un-attackable by nation states when we're important to their bottom line. Of course, there will always be non-nation-state ideologue terrorists - no amount of money spent on conventional war machines will ever change that, nor will they ever fully erase the threat. So why waste Canada's money trying? You are absolutely correct, we cannot stop 100% threats to Canada so we should stop trying to protect ourselves and throw out a prayer or two every once in a while to keep us safe...right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kward Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Because Its hard to be in NORAD if the Americans are the only participants with Aircraft, its also hard to escort passenger aircraft to an airport when needed if you have no reliable aircraft... we depend on the US for a lot as it is, we should not have to ask them to protect our airspace because we don't want to invest the money to do it ourselves. See my previous reply to Smallc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 All of your arguments are great. My question and the Canadian people's question is why weren't they made when we had an election on this issue. I don't recall the F-35 being much of an issue, actually. And I think the Tories wanted to keep it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 what kind of nonsense is this, now you have us fighting our nato partners who may be flying f35's....the super hornet is superior to any plane flown by third world nations we may confront, the only "potential" adversary with possibly better equipment is the chinese ...and we aren't going to war with any super power regardless what kind of plane we buy... As BC has pointed out, Iran wound up with a bunch of F-14's in the seventies. Also you have no clue what the Russians and Chinese are going to sell to who over the next 30 years. Top that off with the fact we will be trying to operate orphans as soon as our allies stop flying the F-18E when it is not even into half its lifespan with us. I hate to think what that will cost getting one off factory support just for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kward Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 No one is asking for unlimited money. Of course not, that would be ridiculous. It comes in requests for this amount, then that amount, and so on, and so on, and so on. It's 50 mill here, 50 mill there...before you know it the national debt's unserviceable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kward Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The kind that Canada buys from U.S. defense contractors. Waste of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 See my previous reply to Smallc. Listen, if you want to place the security of your family on the hope that no one will attack us then by all means you have the right, at the same time I have the right to know that there are reliable fighters in the air who can divert and if necessary shoot down anyone who endangers us. By your logic we should disarm the Army and the navy and have a collective prayer every night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kward Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 You are absolutely correct, we cannot stop 100% threats to Canada so we should stop trying to protect ourselves and throw out a prayer or two every once in a while to keep us safe...right? Yes, that's exactly what I'd said in my reply. Well done. Hey, I hear Coles Notes is hiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kward Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Listen, if you want to place the security of your family on the hope that no one will attack us then by all means you have the right, at the same time I have the right to know that there are reliable fighters in the air who can divert and if necessary shoot down anyone who endangers us. By your logic we should disarm the Army and the navy and have a collective prayer every night. I've got news for you, trying to buy safety is an exercise in futility. You make yourself more secure by keeping out of the affairs of others, and by opening for business with any and all. You lead by example, and you practice good diplomacy, always open to talk with anyone. THAT's keeping a country safe...the other stuff is an arms race with no end, and it impoverishes more than it enriches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Yes, that's exactly what I'd said in my reply. Well done. Hey, I hear Coles Notes is hiring. That is a deeply flawed logic and I do not subscribe to that just like the majority of Canadians do not subscribe to the theory that we can't stop all bad guys so we will give up altogether. We can't stop crime so why keep the cops around, they are just a waste of money right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I've got news for you, trying to buy safety is an exercise in futility. You make yourself more secure by keeping out of the affairs of others, and by opening for business with any and all. You lead by example, and you practice good diplomacy, always open to talk with anyone. THAT's keeping a country safe...the other stuff is an arms race with no end, and it impoverishes more than it enriches. So what about the terrorists who don't care about your desires to stay out of anyone else's business? The once who see western nation and put it on a hit list? Or what about those nations who want to take resources right from under our noses do we just give it to them or run and cry to the US to protect us because we chose not to defend ourselves? This is one of the most idiotic ideas I have seen in some time, the nation that essentially hands over its defence to another nation is not independent at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 As BC has pointed out, Iran wound up with a bunch of F-14's in the seventies. Also you have no clue what the Russians and Chinese are going to sell to who over the next 30 years. Top that off with the fact we will be trying to operate orphans as soon as our allies stop flying the F-18E when it is not even into half its lifespan with us. I hate to think what that will cost getting one off factory support just for us. the Australia just purchased 24 the US navy bought 124 more in 2010, so are you claiming the US navy buys obsolete crap?....the customers of the russians and chinese that would most likely encounter rarely buy planes that are top rate, they buy planes to protect themselves against their neighbors not nato...and this orphan line is crap, there are a number of planes that are only flow by one country it just doesn't matter, as long as we fly anything orphan or not, manufacturers will supply parts for it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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