Israel-Palestine bi-national state ... Fresh hope?

[Hudson Jones]

You're the one who made the comparison to animals.

My intention was not to give them a negative connotation. People are animals and have natural needs.

Good, and as soon as the PA also has the authority to actually speak on behalf of the Palestinian people, rather than just 1 out of their 2 territories, then what they say might carry some meaning.

In response to a reasonable question, you have elected to give an unreasonable response. Why are you afraid to accept that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is wrong?

Because as long as they have to maintain a costly military occupation in the territory to ensure security, they may as well use the resources available.

Spoken like a true supporter of colonialism and an obstacle to peace and justice. I suppose we are done discussing the situation.

[Bonam]

In response to a reasonable question, you have elected to give an unreasonable response. Why are you afraid to accept that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is wrong?

What is "unreasonable" about pointing out that while the PA might be making some conciliatory statements, that such statements are not very meaningful when they do not speak on behalf of all Palestinians? When in fact there is a whole 2nd separate Palestinian government (legitimately elected no less) that vehemently disagrees with these peaceful statements?

[Hudson Jones]

What is "unreasonable" about pointing out that while the PA might be making some conciliatory statements, that such statements are not very meaningful when they do not speak on behalf of all Palestinians? When in fact there is a whole 2nd separate Palestinian government (legitimately elected no less) that vehemently disagrees with these peaceful statements?

Why not show good faith by responding positively to the West Bank, which is isolated from Gaza, instead of continuing the status quo; Theft of land, resources, control of borders, trade, tax collection, checkpoints, etc.

Why are you afraid to accept that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is wrong?

Edited November 19, 2012 by Hudson Jones

[Bonam]

Why not show good faith by responding positively to the West Bank, which is isolated from Gaza, instead of continuing the status quo; Theft of land, resources, control of borders, trade, tax collection, checkpoints, etc.

Has the PA asked Israel to negotiate specifically and separately on the issues of tax collection responsibilities and flow of goods at foreign border crossings with the West Bank? Israel has seemed willing to pass off a significant amount of security and police operations in the West Bank to the PA, and I for one think that the PA collecting its own taxes would certainly be reasonable, and should be an issue that the PA talks about with Israel in isolation from negotiations about larger issues, and they may find much common ground there. In regards to checkpoints, Israel has on multiple occasions during Abbas's tenure as leader of the PA eased checkpoint restrictions and removed various checkpoints in response to Abbas's relatively moderate stance.

That is, Israel has largely been acting in "good faith" within its capabilities to do so given the political realities.

Why are you afraid to accept that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is wrong?

The situation the Palestinians find themselves in is not ideal, no one would deny that. However, they largely brought it on themselves by their decades of aggression against Israel and Israeli Jews, starting before Israel even became an independent state.

[bush_cheney2004]

The Palestinians don't limit their killings and kidnappings to Israelis. Many other nationals have been impacted by the PLO's unique "foreign policy".

This web site documents about 700 killed or kidnapped Americans from Palestinian terrorism from news sources, starting with Robert F. Kennedy in 1968:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/American-Victims-Palestinian-Attacks.htm

[Hudson Jones]

This web site documents about 700 killed or kidnapped Americans from Palestinian terrorism from news sources, starting with Robert F. Kennedy in 1968:

http://www.thereligi...ian-Attacks.htm

If you care about 700 people killed since 1968, then you are probably up in arms about 1000 Palestinian civilians killed in 3 weeks during Israel's last blitz into Gaza.

[Rue]

The thread producer called "Hudson" makes representations as to what it is like to live in Gaza and on the West Bank.

He also made the statement posed as a question that people are starving on the West Bank.

I would now ask this "Hudson" when was the last time he visited the West Bank or Gaza or has he been to either.

I would like to know the source for his representations.

[bush_cheney2004]

If you care about 700 people killed since 1968, then you are probably up in arms about 1000 Palestinian civilians killed in 3 weeks during Israel's last blitz into Gaza.

Not at all, as thousands more Americans have been killed in military actions. America can see their killin' and raise them tenfold.

[Rue]

It is my contention that it is not helpful for people who have not been to either the West Bank or Gaza or for that matter Israel, to come on this forum and make presentations as to the living conditions in any of these places.

The rhetoric of people who claim to know what it is like to live in these places when they have not lived there results in the kinds of comments such as Hudson's which I contend manifest ignorance of the actual conditions.

No one is starving on the West Bank.

The Gaza is a confined and highly tense place to live. The South of Israel where 1 million live, is no picnic either.

In fact Israelis since 1949 have lived under the same tension and feelings of isolation and constant attack as any Palestinian either in Gaza or the West Bank.

All these people share the same feeling of entrapment and existential despair and a resigned belief that there will be no solution.

I have lived there. I have witnessed people die there. The colour of blood on either side is the same colour and so each time an incident causes conflict to break out I become angry...not at the civilians on either side...not at the IDF trying to protect its citzens, not moderate Palestinians whose voices are drowned out by the rhetoric of Hamas but at people with Anglo sounding names like "Hudson" whose threads claim to represent the conditions and feelings of these people and who engage in inflammatory rhetoric designed to present the Hamas platform.

The current conflict in Gaza is part of a continuous bomardment and act of war by Hamas against Israel. It has recently caught on fire due to a vacum caused by the Egyptian Armed Forces standing down from containing Hamas. It has been ignited by Assad loyalists who have drawn Hamas in as a distraction to heavy losses in the last week or so and the blowing up of tanks in Syria that attempted to draw Israel into a war with Syria to dettract from its civil war against Sunni Muslims.

The current incitement of Hamas has come by Iran sending its missiles via Hezbollah into Gaza. This is a last desperate measure by Assad to dettract from his losses. This is an attempt by Hezbollah to assert assistance to Hamas serving Israel notice if an anti Assad regime takes over in Syria, Hezbollah will continue to control Lebanon and go it alone with Hamas' help not the former Syria's,

The current war of attrition commenced years ago when a Syrian pro Assad-Hezbollah clique funded by Iran wrestled Hamas away from EgyptianMuslim Brotherhood creators and rejected the Egyptian Brotherhood's policy of no violence and replaced it with today's terrorism.

What Hudson will not discuss is the current Hamas leader applauding today the attacks on Israel and describing them as welcomed terrorism against the Zionist state. What he will discuss is supposedly "starving" people on the West Bank.

[DogOnPorch]

Not at all, as thousands more Americans have been killed in military actions. America can see their killin' and raise them tenfold.

You guys lost more on D-Day than all the Arab Israeli Wars combined, I'm sure.

[DogOnPorch]

And Antietam is still the bloodiest day, me thinks...

Edited November 19, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[bush_cheney2004]

You guys lost more on D-Day than all the Arab Israeli Wars combined, I'm sure.

Right....and this is why it is a failed Palestinian strategy. Terror attacks against other nationals simply won't work. "Hey, let's kill Bobby Kennedy...that's gotta work ! "

[dre]

Perhaps, perhaps not, but even if that statement was true, Israel would not be better off controlling the Gaza strip. Israel does not need an extra half million angry Arabs.

They are controlling it anyways through the blockade and the arabs are already angry.

The question is, why dont they withdraw from the west bank, since theres almost no hostility origionating from there, and the most moderate palestinian leadership in history. And the answer is because they plan to keep most of it.

Its pretty hard to feel bad about attacks on a country thats engaged in a permanent military occupation for the purpose of stealing land and resources. Violence against them is a forgone conclusion as it should be.

I feel bad that civilians on both sides die in this conflict, but the Israeli government invites these attacks on its own people just like Hama does.

Edited November 19, 2012 by dre

[DogOnPorch]

They are controlling it anyways through the blockade and the arabs are already angry.

The question is, why dont they withdraw from the west bank, since theres almost no hostility origionating from there, and the most moderate palestinian leadership in history. And the answer is because they plan to keep most of it.

Its pretty hard to feel bad about attacks on a country thats engaged in a permanent military occupation for the purpose of stealing land and resources. Violence against them is a forgone conclusion as it should be.

I feel bad that civilians on both sides die in this conflict, but the Israeli government invites these attacks on its own people just like Hama does.

Before the 6 Day War going back into the 1950s...when the Gaza Strip was part of Egypt...the forerunners of the PLO were busy conducting raids into Israel with the nod of the Egyptian government. There were no calls for a free Palestine, oddly. Just a dead Israel. The West Bank, of course, was part of Jordan...an area they annexed during a war. Again...no calls for a free Palestine. But, there were the same raids into Israel from this area...

[jacee]

The past and current situation isn't sustainable.

When all is said and done, the people of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank will all still be there, and they're the only ones who can decide what's best for them.

There is a point when who did what to whom when becomes moot because it is what it is - People need to live, raise kids, earn a living ... build a future.

Israel, Gaza and the West Bank are intertwined but distinct by having separate governments.

So do our provinces, andthey were the first government

It's a place to start ... and it's heartening to see discussion of a binational state coming from the people, both Jewish and Arab settlers.

It's their lives, and I think it behooves us to follow their conversation.

Edited November 19, 2012 by jacee

[Rue]

The past and current situation isn't sustainable.

When all is said and done, the people of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank will all still be there, and they're the only ones who can decide what's best for them.

There is a point when who did what to whom when becomes moot because it is what it is - People need to live, raise kids, earn a living ... build a future.

Israel, Gaza and the West Bank are intertwined but distinct by having separate governments.

So do our provinces, andthey were the first government

It's a place to start ... and it's heartening to see discussion of a binational state coming from the people, both Jewish and Arab settlers.

It's their lives, and I think it behooves us to follow their conversation.

What a crock. What Israelis have talked about a bi national state. Now you claim to speak for them by stating no one should speak for them.

Which Israelis do you refer to.? The only people who refer to the absurd code word bi national state which has been a word used since 1949 to signal the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state are just that those who want to take the Jew out of the Israeli state.

Bi national. Get real. Neither Palestinians nor Israelis believe they can live in the same state. Moderates believe they could live peacefully side by side but to suggest they live in one state is a crock and always has been a crock and is a script Gamel Abnel NAsser coined. Give it a rest with this pretending it is dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians it is not.

Mr. Abbas has made it clear he will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state and he is called a moderate. Right.

Go on mention one state where Muslims in the Middle East live bi nationally with non Muslims. You can't and there is a reason for it and a reason for it-Sharia law does not recognize the right of anyone but Muslims to land ownership and basic legal rights in a Sharia law country.

You engage in fiction and then try pass it off as if its dialogue being proposed by Israeli Jews and Palestinians. Nonsense. Absolute nonsense.

Its a ludicrous concept dreamed up by people like you who do not understand how Sharia law works or why Jews had to create a state to protect themselves.

[Rue]

In regard to Eye Balls suggestion Israel is up to its neck in indigenous peoples-this repeats the false accusation that Jews are not indigenous to the Middle East, only Arabs or Palestinians are. It is that kind of discrimination and ignorance as to the origin of Jews that make some of us understand that the people who come on this forum to engage in the standard anti Israel diatribes will never make an effort to find out our origins.

Its why we can have Eyeball making such comments or Jaycee making absurd suggestions Israelis believe in a bi national state or Palestinians do believe in any state other than one with Jews as a minority and treated like Jews in other Muslim states.

What behooves me is having to read the kinds of comments from the thread writer using the name Hudson and who does not have the integrity to respond to back up his allegations that he passes off as if he lives in Gaza or the West Bank.

He made accusations people are starving. Now we have Jaycee claiming to know what Israelis and Palestinians think.

How long to these comments go on from people claiming to speak as if they have first hand knowledge and speak for others...hmmm?

Jaycee indicate the people you claim you should not speak for but then speak for. Which Israelis are asking for a bi national state?

Go on Hudson, put up your proof. You claim people on the West Bank are starving back it up.

Is that what this forum is-a show-case to make uunsunstantiated claims? Do you want to debate or simply come on the forum to deliver unsubstantiated claims?

[Hudson Jones]

You said that I started this thread and that I said people in West Bank are starving.

Both things are imagined by you.

[Sleipnir]

There's no freaking way a bi-national 1-state solution will work. No way, 100% chance of failure. If Quebec and the rest of Canada can barely get along, have so much animosity for each other, and have been teetering back and forth on separation for so long, imagine how the Israel/Palestine region would function as a single state?

You can't really compare the situation with Canada/Quebec with Israel/Palestine...

[bush_cheney2004]

You can't really compare the situation with Canada/Quebec with Israel/Palestine...

Agreed...the situation is more comparable to Canada and First Nations.

[Black Dog]

Agreed...the situation is more comparable to Canada and First Nations.

Except it's not.

[Sleipnir]

Agreed...the situation is more comparable to Canada and First Nations.

Yeah........no

[bush_cheney2004]

Yeah........no

The underlying issues of land claims, control of resources, and self determination are quite comparable. Don't be fooled by the lack of violence from a people already subjugated by the Crown.

[DogOnPorch]

The underlying issues of land claims, control of resources, and self determination are quite comparable. Don't be fooled by the lack of violence from a people already subjugated by the Crown.

First Nations would NEVER take up arms against the Canadian government...lol. A friend of mine in the RCMP still has a sore ass from a non-existent First Nation bullet.

[GostHacked]

But Gaza Strip is too small. Israel might as well just make it part of Israel and let the Arabs live in West Bank only. What's the point of having Gaza Strip unattached to West Bank? The people who live there would be better off if Israel controlled it.

Divide and conquer. The technique is as old as this conflict is.